Player Discussion Tim Stützle - (C) - Part VI

[Hale The Villain]

Very few players in this league can skate and handle the puck as well as him.

Can think of only McDavid, MacKinnon, J.Hughes and Barzal, and I think Barzal is arguable.

Will be an absolute force when he is fully developed.

 

[Beech]

Look at the ages of all the stars from 03-07.... Thats basically 2 to 3 years from now with this core. I really think we just have to keep all the big pieces in tact here not trade any prospects and just wait. I think by 2025/26 is when this team starts to make some real noise. I know it sucks to wait but its going to be a fun process. This was always the time line with the 2020 draft being the big one for this franchise.

the 99-07 team had one of the greatest concentration of acquired talent that the Sens have seen.

from 1996 to 2001, each and every year had a minimum of 2 players that developed into average to above average NHL'rs. You are talking 13 guys on their roster from 1998 to 04. They then started trading some of these pieces for quality talent that stayed with them 04-07. Now add the Greg Zanon (500 plus games), Brooks laich, Tim Gleason (all above 500 games) . We are talking 16 NHL'rs, thanks to 6 years. Almost 3 a year.

2001 alone produced 4 NHL'rs. 2 played here a long time, 2 were traded.

the 2016-2021 has produced 5. With 2-3 still as TBD. So in extreme case, they may hit 8..... 16, twenty years earlier.

What this team had in 99-07 and failed to win multiple cups with!!!!!!!! 16 GUYS..UNREAL.

 

[Golden_Jet]

from 1996 to 2001, each and every year had a minimum of 2 players that developed into average to above average NHL'rs. You are talking 13 guys on their roster from 1998 to 04. They then started trading some of these pieces for quality talent that stayed with them 04-07. Now add the Greg Zanon (500 plus games), Brooks laich, Tim Gleason (all above 500 games) . We are talking 16 NHL'rs, thanks to 6 years. Almost 3 a year.

2001 alone produced 4 NHL'rs. 2 played here a long time, 2 were traded.

the 2016-2021 has produced 5. With 2-3 still as TBD. So in extreme case, they may hit 8..... 16, twenty years earlier.

What this team had in 99-07 and failed to win multiple cups with!!!!!!!! 16 GUYS..UNREAL.

So you used 98-04,
But recently 16-21, one less year.

Nice cherry pick leaving out that one year 2015, and 2021 most players are still in junior.
Or was 2016 left out because it was

Chabot
Colin White
Gagne
Chlapik
Wolanin
Jaros
D’Accord

 

[swiftwin]

the 99-07 team had one of the greatest concentration of acquired talent that the Sens have seen.

from 1996 to 2001, each and every year had a minimum of 2 players that developed into average to above average NHL'rs. You are talking 13 guys on their roster from 1998 to 04. They then started trading some of these pieces for quality talent that stayed with them 04-07. Now add the Greg Zanon (500 plus games), Brooks laich, Tim Gleason (all above 500 games) . We are talking 16 NHL'rs, thanks to 6 years. Almost 3 a year.

2001 alone produced 4 NHL'rs. 2 played here a long time, 2 were traded.

the 2016-2021 has produced 5. With 2-3 still as TBD. So in extreme case, they may hit 8..... 16, twenty years earlier.

What this team had in 99-07 and failed to win multiple cups with!!!!!!!! 16 GUYS..UNREAL.

Hold on.... are you comparing the careers of players we drafted from 1998 to 2004 to the careers of players we drafted from 2016 to 2021??? Maybe let the 2016-2021 group actually start their careers before making these comparisons?!?!?!

 

[Beech]

So you used 98-04,
But recently 16-21, one less year.

Nice cherry pick leaving out that one year 2015, and 2021 most players are still in junior.
Or was it left out because it was

Chabot
Colin White
Gagne
Chlapik
Wolanin
Jaros
D’Accord

I picked 96-2001 as draft years and 98-07 as result years.

I then picked 2016-2021 as draft years and will judge 2018-2027 as result years.

Symmetry

it doe not change 1996-2001 drafting produced 16 players that played 500 or more games (Less Emery, who as a goalie can never meet this number). 2016-2021 will max out at 8 if that, it may max out at 5 or 6

Gagne bust and may end up in jail
Chalpik..bust
Wholanin...bust
Jaros...bust
D'accord...bust

as for 2021..read again, I said there are still 2-3 TBD's (To be determined). I even gave them credit. And said 8 will make it.

Jet..re-read..real slowly.

 

[swiftwin]

it doe not change 1996-2001 drafting produced 16 players that played 500 or more games (Less Emery, who as a goalie can never meet this number). 2016-2021 will max out at 8 if that, it may max out at 5 or 6

Can you list them? I only see 13.

Also list out which 8 from 2016-2021 you believe have a shot at playing 500 games.

 

[Beech]

Hold on.... are you comparing the careers of players we drafted from 1998 to 2004 to the careers of players we drafted from 2016 to 2021??? Maybe let the 2016-2021 group actually start their careers before making these comparisons?!?!?!

yes and no..read slowly swiftwin

draft years 1996-2001..result years 1998-2007
draft years 2016-2021..result years 2018-2027

we know 1996-2001 produced 16 NHLrs..Zanon just missed out and only hit 493 games, Arvd. at 433, but he was very late in coming to the NHL. The others played 700 or more and had good to great careers.

so far the 2016-2021 have produced 5 players.. the 2020 and 2021's are still young..we don't know..they may produce 1-2. The 16-2019 may have another 1-2. And so the 2016-2021 will most likely top out at 8.

One produced 16, the other produced 8.. Now, should the heaven's open and suddenly a rush of players from 2016-2021 surface-resurface, it may hit 10...we are still talking 16 to 10.

There is no comparison 1996-2201, has been to date the greatest drafting period in Sens history and one of the best in league history. It should have produced 2-3 cups and 5-6 EFCs. It produced 2 EFCs, 1 CUP trip, but no victory.. so tragically short of expectations...but so far, it is better than the 16-21 and by a mile

Can you list them? I only see 13.

Also list out which 8 from 2016-2021 you believe have a shot at playing 500 games.

1996: Philips, Dackel, Salo
1997: Hossa, Arvidson
1998: Fisher, Neil
1999: Havlat, Kelly
2000: Volc, Vermet, Zanon
2001: Spezza, Gleason, Emery, Laich

16

 

[JD1]

Early 30s.

Also, I never debated 2017 was better. I am saying proper management/ownership could have created another team worthy of winning the cup. Yes, we should have won 97 through 07. We had a juggernaut. However, Karlsson is the single greatest piece this franchise has ever had. We could have assembled a worthy 1D, 1C, 1W and 1G core to win a cup with. Properly managing/financing around that asset(EK) should have resulted into another cup. Especially when we had likes of Stone and Zbad during that same timeframe.

Well the early 30s adds up. I suspect you don't remember the 99 - 07 all that well. Maybe towards the end of the run as a mid teen.

That aside, yes, we had Karlsson. Zibanejad was never a 1C in Ottawa, he didn't achieve that status until a couple years after he left. By the time he did, arguably EK was a shadow of himself but has had a great rebound year.

We only ever had 1 piece of the 1d, 1c, 1w and 1g core. By the time you could call Zibanejad a 1c I think Anderson was probably 38.

We were never close to having what it took in the Karlsson era to win a cup. I'm a huge fan and an optimist by nature, but that was a Cinderella run. Look at Edmonton. They've had the best player in the world and the 2-nd to 5th best player in the world and can't get a sniff. That goes to show you how difficult it is. It ain't easy.

To the point @bert Made this is probably as well as we've been set up in terms of having high end core pieces all at the same time

 

[swiftwin]

yes and no..read slowly swiftwin

draft years 1996-2001..result years 1998-2007
draft years 2016-2021..result years 2018-2027

we know 1996-2001 produced 16 NHLrs..Zanon just missed out and only hit 493 games, Arvd. at 433, but he was very late in coming to the NHL. The others played 700 or more and had good to great careers.

so far the 2016-2021 have produced 5 players.. the 2020 and 2021's are still young..we don't know..they may produce 1-2. The 16-2019 may have another 1-2. And so the 2016-2021 will most likely top out at 8.

One produced 16, the other produced 8.. Now, should the heaven's open and suddenly a rush of players from 2016-2021 surface-resurface, it may hit 10...we are still talking 16 to 10.

There is no comparison 1996-2201, has been to date the greatest drafting period in Sens history and one of the best in league history. It should have produced 2-3 cups and 5-6 EFCs. It produced 2 EFCs, 1 CUP trip, but no victory.. so tragically short of expectations...but so far, it is better than the 16-21 and by a mile


1996: Philips, Dackel, Salo
1997: Hossa, Arvidson
1998: Fisher, Neil
1999: Havlat, Kelly
2000: Volc, Vermet, Zanon
2001: Spezza, Gleason, Emery, Laich

16

Ok, so I was right. 13 players with 500 games. Maybe you're the one who needs to read slowly. I'm also not sure how relevant Zanon, Gleason and Laich are considering they never played for us. Plus, players like Kelly, Laich, Zanon and Emery would hardly be considered for this list in 2002-03 (which would equate to today for this 2016-2021 cohort). Plus you're conveniently omitting 2015, which is clearly very relevant to the current core because of Chabot.

Either way, this is a bizarre argument. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Yes, we had a good drafting streak in the late 90's/early 00's, but we had a very good shot in 2003, then got f***ed by the lockout in '05, then Hasek in '06, then became the league's first cap casualty (while still having a good shot) in '07. I'm also not sure how that's relevant to our current group of players.

I'm also curious to see who the 8 are in the current group.

 

[bicboi64]

A little less than halfway into the season, and Stu has 15g. Really hoping he can hit the 30g mark and have that as his benchmark going forward. Can't remember the last time a centre scored 30g for us

 

[swiftwin]

A little less than halfway into the season, and Stu has 15g. Really hoping he can hit the 30g mark and have that as his benchmark going forward. Can't remember the last time a centre scored 30g for us

Ummm Josh Norris last season?

 

[Sun God Nika]

A little less than halfway into the season, and Stu has 15g. Really hoping he can hit the 30g mark and have that as his benchmark going forward. Can't remember the last time a centre scored 30g for us

Last season bro.

 

[bicboi64]

Ummm Josh Norris last season?

Last season bro.

ultra fail on my behalf

Gonna try to blame it on my crush for Stu and forgetting Norris was even playing

 

[PlayersLtd]

A little less than halfway into the season, and Stu has 15g. Really hoping he can hit the 30g mark and have that as his benchmark going forward. Can't remember the last time a centre scored 30g for us

Spezza in '98.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Well the early 30s adds up. I suspect you don't remember the 99 - 07 all that well. Maybe towards the end of the run as a mid teen.

That aside, yes, we had Karlsson. Zibanejad was never a 1C in Ottawa, he didn't achieve that status until a couple years after he left. By the time he did, arguably EK was a shadow of himself but has had a great rebound year.

I remember 01-02 onwards vividly. Became a hardcore fun at a young age.

And I am aware of how things transpired, but with proper finances and management, we likely don't give up on Zibanejad at all. We make better moves to aid Karlsson etc.

 

[JD1]

I remember 01-02 onwards vividly. Became a hardcore fun at a young age.

And I am aware of how things transpired, but with proper finances and management, we likely don't give up on Zibanejad at all. We make better moves to aid Karlsson etc.

You may well remember it vividly, probably better than me because I don't remember most days what I had for breakfast yesterday, but as a preteen kid you didn't really understand what you were seeing. Anyway that wasn't the point.

Winning a cup isn't easy. You posted that we had EK and with a couple of moves should have won some cups. Ok. NYR has Zibanejad in his prime. The very guy that you mentioned. They've got Fox winning Norris trophies, they've got one of the best wingers in the game in Panarin. Last year they had a Vezina goalie. So that's your #1 D, c, w, and g. All all star calibre players. Why aren't they winning?

Like I said.... it's not easy. There's an awful lot that has to go right in order to win.

Look at Toronto. No one loves laughing at Toronto more than me but the truth is that they've got a pretty good roster and can't win a round.

 

[Micklebot]

You may well remember it vividly, probably better than me because I don't remember most days what I had for breakfast yesterday, but as a preteen kid you didn't really understand what you were seeing. Anyway that wasn't the point.

Winning a cup isn't easy. You posted that we had EK and with a couple of moves should have won some cups. Ok. NYR has Zibanejad in his prime. The very guy that you mentioned. They've got Fox winning Norris trophies, they've got one of the best wingers in the game in Panarin. Last year they had a Vezina goalie. So that's your #1 D, c, w, and g. All all star calibre players. Why aren't they winning?

Like I said.... it's not easy. There's an awful lot that has to go right in order to win.

Look at Toronto. No one loves laughing at Toronto more than me but the truth is that they've got a pretty good roster and can't win a round.

If we're arguing we should have won a cup with Ek, I suspect the argument is with at extra piece in 2016-17, we probably get by the pens and have a great opportunity against Nashville.

Similarly, if we had gotten past NJD in 03 we probably have a good chance of beating the Giguere led Ducks.

Winning the cup is as much luck as it is assembling the right roster. The Ducks were an awful matchup for us in 2007, I thought Det outplayed them though and had they won that series we matchup up better against Det. Tbay looked dominant until they got swept by Columbus in the first round, does StL handle Tbay if they meet up instead of Boston?

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

You may well remember it vividly, probably better than me because I don't remember most days what I had for breakfast yesterday, but as a preteen kid you didn't really understand what you were seeing. Anyway that wasn't the point.

Winning a cup isn't easy. You posted that we had EK and with a couple of moves should have won some cups. Ok. NYR has Zibanejad in his prime. The very guy that you mentioned. They've got Fox winning Norris trophies, they've got one of the best wingers in the game in Panarin. Last year they had a Vezina goalie. So that's your #1 D, c, w, and g. All all star calibre players. Why aren't they winning?

Like I said.... it's not easy. There's an awful lot that has to go right in order to win.

Look at Toronto. No one loves laughing at Toronto more than me but the truth is that they've got a pretty good roster and can't win a round.

Like Mickel points out, some effort could have resulted into something special. We barely bothered.

We had Erik *****ing Karlsson. One of the all-time greats. A guy who is on pace (perhaps won't make it) to be the only other defender outside of Orr and Coffey to score over 105 points as a D. Ever.

We didn't just have a Norris winner, we had Erik The Stupendous. Your point stands is still very much real, but I don't think some understand the asset we had in EK and how a better assembled roster with more financial freedom should have resulted into several deep runs and potential cup, without question.

 

[JD1]

If we're arguing we should have won a cup with Ek, I suspect the argument is with at extra piece in 2016-17, we probably get by the pens and have a great opportunity against Nashville.

Similarly, if we had gotten past NJD in 03 we probably have a good chance of beating the Giguere led Ducks.

Winning the cup is as much luck as it is assembling the right roster. The Ducks were an awful matchup for us in 2007, I thought Det outplayed them though and had they won that series we matchup up better against Det. Tbay looked dominant until they got swept by Columbus in the first round, does StL handle Tbay if they meet up instead of Boston?

Here's the difference and it should be very very clear to someone such as yourself that is old enough to remember

In 2017, I fully understand that we were in 2OT from the cup finals. But at the start of the playoffs there wasn't anyone that felt we had legit cup chances. Ya it was exciting. Cost me a lot of money to attend some of those games. But it was a Cinderella run that happens now and again. That run was one of the best things about being a sports fan because it was so unexpected

In the early to mid 2000s we were among cup favourites every year. And we lost every year. Some times in spectacular fashion. And 4 times to the f***ing Maple Leafs and we're still hearing that noise 20 years later. Those years were absolutely gut wrenching as a sports fan. Expectations unfulfilled.

Back then, we should have won one and didn't. In 2017, we really had no business winning a cup.

 

[Big Muddy]

Well the early 30s adds up. I suspect you don't remember the 99 - 07 all that well. Maybe towards the end of the run as a mid teen.

Yep. I've been following the Senators since their (more recent) inception. Like a religion. 2003 I think was the best team and my favourite. We came so close but that Friesen goal has burned a memory into my brain that I'll never forget. If we got past the Devils, I think we would have won the Cup. I think we had the better team versus the Ducks that year. That was a great team - very powerful imho.

Then there was Hasek and 2004 CBA scenario. We had some misfortune there as we could have carried forward that great team and momentum those next few years following 2003. 2007 was a good year too, but I think the Senators peaked more around that 2003ish timeframe.

Back in that era, players wanted to get traded to Ottawa. I think that's not visible if you are younger and weren't around at that time.

 

[JD1]

Like Mickel points out, some effort could have resulted into something special. We barely bothered.

We had Erik *****ing Karlsson. One of the all-time greats. A guy who is on pace (perhaps won't make it) to be the only other defender outside of Orr and Coffey to score over 105 points as a D. Ever.

We didn't just have a Norris winner, we had Erik The Stupendous. Your point stands is still very much real, but I don't think some understand the asset we had in EK and how a better assembled roster with more financial freedom should have resulted into several deep runs and potential cup, without question.

Here's the thing

You're in your early 30s. It's actually YOU that isn't in a position to understand what we had in EK.

You didn't see Orr play. Or Coffey. Or Bourque. Or Robinson. Or Potvin. I saw all of them play, all live except Orr.

You're in absolutely zero position to tell me about hockey players that you've read about that I saw play and win cups.

I know what Karlsson was.

It's still not easy to win a cup.

This isn't nhl23 where you just make trades, win them, and the cup is yours.

The Maple Leafs last won the cup in 1967. You need to be in your mid to late 60s to actually have real memories of that. Think about that.

It's not as easy as a couple of trades and financial freedom

 

[Ice-Tray]

Here's the thing

You're in your early 30s. It's actually YOU that isn't in a position to understand what we had in EK.

You didn't see Orr play. Or Coffey. Or Bourque. Or Robinson. Or Potvin. I saw all of them play, all live except Orr.

You're in absolutely zero position to tell me about hockey players that you've read about that I saw play and win cups.

I know what Karlsson was.

It's still not easy to win a cup.

This isn't nhl23 where you just make trades, win them, and the cup is yours.

The Maple Leafs last won the cup in 1967. You need to be in your mid to late 60s to actually have real memories of that. Think about that.

It's not as easy as a couple of trades and financial freedom

Remember all those pre cap Rangers, Leafs, Avs teams that bought all the stars every year and still couldn’t win.

Avs had Kariya and Selanne on their third line and still couldn’t buy a cup!

Hardest championship in pro sports to win. So much hinges on luck, chemistry, getting hot at the right time, and staying healthy.

Oh, and goaltending lol

The parity in the league is absolutely sick. The NHL really nailed that.

 

[Big Muddy]

Remember all those pre cap Rangers, Leafs, Avs teams that bought all the stars every year and still couldn’t win.

Avs had Kariya and Selanne on their third line and still couldn’t buy a cup!

Hardest championship in pro sports to win. So much hinges on luck, chemistry, getting hot at the right time, and staying healthy.

Oh, and goaltending lol

The parity in the league is absolutely sick. The NHL really nailed that.

And that's why the big money teams hate the salary cap. They can't a "buy" a championship.

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

 

[Micklebot]

Here's the difference and it should be very very clear to someone such as yourself that is old enough to remember

In 2017, I fully understand that we were in 2OT from the cup finals. But at the start of the playoffs there wasn't anyone that felt we had legit cup chances. Ya it was exciting. Cost me a lot of money to attend some of those games. But it was a Cinderella run that happens now and again. That run was one of the best things about being a sports fan because it was so unexpected

In the early to mid 2000s we were among cup favourites every year. And we lost every year. Some times in spectacular fashion. And 4 times to the f***ing Maple Leafs and we're still hearing that noise 20 years later. Those years were absolutely gut wrenching as a sports fan. Expectations unfulfilled.

Back then, we should have won one and didn't. In 2017, we really had no business winning a cup.

Totally agree, I was just trying to highlight how much comes down to chance. Heck, had we made a major upgrade on D in 2017, maybe instead of it propelling us past the Pens we lose to Boston in the first round because Boro doesn't knock McQuaid out 2 mins into game 6.