Confirmed with Link: Tim Erixon traded to Chicago for Jeremy Morin

[CBJx614]

I'm saying my summary is accurate. (Edited post above - sorry.)




Dude. Previous page.

And page 3

 

[Viqsi]

The bolded is bollocks and you know it. None of us ever gets these things right in the specifics because there is a universe of players and deals out there that we will never know. We just don't have that knowledge. The "He's lying" part is ********, too, I've never said he was lying. I believe he could have done a better job and that he knows how to spin things, as all FO people do. In fact your entire boiled-down post is a waste of time. Let's try an alternate version

A: Hold the line, we don't need to do anything

WRONG.

Absolutely, completely, uniequivocably wrong in any and every conceivable way, and the fact that anyone can even think this is anyone's position here goes beyond insanity and into borderline insulting.

What folks WERE saying (and still are saying) is "We cannot do anything useful, because folks are pointing and laughing and offering AHL forwards for first round picks." The price for Leopold back then wasn't a 5th; it was more likely going to be a 2nd, JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN.

If you continue to fail to comprehend this, then you have no business discussing hockey trades and/or roster moves ever again.

 

[db2011]

I'm saying my summary is accurate. (Edited post above - sorry.)




Dude. Previous page.

(for some reason your quote of my lip service remark isn't showing up here) but someone as careful as you with words should know better than to confuse "lip service" with "lying", and to say I'm calling him a liar when I've never used those words. Spin isn't lying.

And it's spin because he swung a trade for Jordan Leopold at the cost of a 5th rounder the day after a top 4 d-man went down. Frankly he hasn't much credibility after the way they handle information surrounding injured players like Horton and Murray. But I don't agree he's a liar so don't say I'm calling him one unless you can really show where I have.

 

[Fro]

no, "spin" is what you're trying to do poorly

 

[major major]

No, I am not saying no one ever demanded a specific solution. That happened a lot. But it's a stupid demand to make because it's a near-impossible one to satisfy. If I'd had the ability to answer "Do what, exactly?" with "Trade a 5th to the Blues for Jordan Leopold and pick up Kevin Connauton off waivers", I would have done it.

It's a course of action I was calling for, and one which has been followed, but has happened later than I think it should have. Expecting fans to be able to answer exactly how that course of action should be followed is expecting too much.

I dispute your chronology. Making the moves he's made sooner either wouldn't have been an improvement or would have been impossible.

We had just enough healthy bodies on defence before Tyutin went down, and Jarmo was able to patch that hole pretty quick. It wouldn't have made any difference to acquire Leopold before he did.

Our big problem was on offence, and maybe Jarmo was negligent in patching holes there*, I don't know, but we don't have any evidence of an opportunity he could have taken to solve the problem. I don't even know if Jeremy Morin was available before his agent requested a trade, but if he was, its unclear if Morin is a solution to anything. Compare his career scoring to Brian Gibbons and you won't be so sure that replacing one with the other solves anything.

* Of course, I am not letting Jarmo off the hook for Mackenzie. That was negligence that helped set up the current problem.

 

[db2011]

WRONG.

Absolutely, completely, uniequivocably wrong in any and every conceivable way, and the fact that anyone can even think this is anyone's position here goes beyond insanity and into borderline insulting.

What folks WERE saying (and still are saying) is "We cannot do anything useful, because folks are pointing and laughing and offering AHL forwards for first round picks." The price for Leopold back then wasn't a 5th; it was more likely going to be a 2nd, JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN.

If you continue to fail to comprehend this, then you have no business discussing hockey trades and/or roster moves ever again.

Viqsi, how can you possibly say that about Leopold when they made the trade the day after Tyutin went down?! The Blues made that trade with more leverage the day before!

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

(for some reason your quote of my lip service remark isn't showing up here) but someone as careful as you with words should know better than to confuse "lip service" with "lying", and to say I'm calling him a liar when I've never used those words. Spin isn't lying.

And it's spin because he swung a trade for Jordan Leopold at the cost of a 5th rounder the day after a top 4 d-man went down. Frankly he hasn't much credibility after the way they handle information surrounding injured players like Horton and Murray. But I don't agree he's a liar so don't say I'm calling him one unless you can really show where I have.

So you're saying you believe that Jarmo was active on the phones, talking to multiple teams about trade possibilities, but that he never made a trade (during the period you believe he should have been doing so) because other teams were asking for too much and he wasn't going to give up what they wanted (he referenced Boone Jenner specifically) for a short-term solution? You're saying that you are not accusing him of lying when he said this? You're saying that his public stance on the situation is truth?

 

[Viqsi]

We didn't stay put. We've made several low-impact moves which is exactly what I was saying needed to happen. And we have what we have now because of it.

And we made them when we could - that is to say, when teams were having enough of their own roster and player movement management issues such that they actually had reason to do business themselves, and so no longer could just blithely charge us eleventy billion dollars for a bag of pucks because, hey, it's no skin off their nose whether we say yes or no, and why help the competition for free or for fair value?

 

[db2011]

Please point out where you or anyone else who are upset about lack of action have any definitive proof that Jarmo wasn't trying to upgrade and that those upgrades WOULDN'T have cost us an arm and a leg. You have no idea. You only know that nothing actually happened but unless you're privy to Jarmo's cell phone logs you're just complaining to complain that he didn't try anything.

No, I don't. His inaction then and his subsequent action either show he was approaching it in a way I didn't agree with or else he was performing poorly. An effective GM would have made low-impact acquisitions to address the injury crisis before our losing streak reached record proportions and young players were fed to the wolves.

 

[db2011]

no, "spin" is what you're trying to do poorly

If you're going to say I'm calling someone a liar or accusing them of lying then you damn well better have the posts that back it up. Otherwise you're editorializing in an unwarranted provocative manner and it's not appreciated.

 

[Viqsi]

Viqsi, how can you possibly say that about Leopold when they made the trade the day after Tyutin went down?! The Blues made that trade with more leverage the day before!

Because Leopold was, at that point, an extra and they were worried about losing guys for nothing. And given his value to begin with, at best that increased negotiations from, say, "2016 6th" to "2015 6th" or similar. The point is that the Blues had a minor need to get some non-roster asset or else risk losing somebody for nothing, and we had a need for depth, and therefore a deal could be made.

Before that, earlier in the season (read: the period where you fault Kekalainen for "doing nothing"), folks were still figuring out what they had and evaluating their roster performance in real-world conditions, and so weren't prepared to make moves. This is always the case, year after year. Attempting to pick up a depth blueliner at that point would normally be seen as silly; it's something that "should have been done during the summer" (only we couldn't, as nobody anticipated this many injuries and frankly it's nearly impossible to stock up for injuries reaching this level anyways without it going well past the point of diminishing returns thanks to roster size limits and the salary cap). Consequently, all you're offering folks is the opportunity to lose their insurance so as to benefit the competition. So they'll charge more. MUCH more, if it looks like you're losing a lot and your season is already on the line and therefore possibly prone to agreeing to doing something, ANYTHING to turn the tide around.

Seriously. Taking advantage of other people's desperation is something you should know before you get into Sales 101, let alone being a part of the course. Are you insisting that Kekalainen is a bad GM because he refused to be taken advantage of? Because nobody else was willing to negotiate on any other terms - there's no reason for them to do otherwise!

 

[Fro]

If you're going to say I'm calling someone a liar or accusing them of lying then you damn well better have the posts that back it up. Otherwise you're editorializing in an unwarranted provocative manner and it's not appreciated.

DSL already provided that and you backed off your stance man...

 

[db2011]

So you're saying you believe that Jarmo was active on the phones, talking to multiple teams about trade possibilities, but that he never made a trade (during the period you believe he should have been doing so) because other teams were asking for too much and he wasn't going to give up what they wanted (he referenced Boone Jenner specifically) for a short-term solution? You're saying that you are not accusing him of lying when he said this? You're saying that his public stance on the situation is truth?

I'm not calling him a liar, I never did. I take his words with skepticism, but I don't disbelieve what he's saying. Whether he's telling everything is another story.

If we could unstick ourselves from understanding an "action, please" position as wanting a move, any move, Jenner-be-damned, we'd be better able to have this discussion. I wouldn't have ever wanted a move like that. Leopold for a 5th was perfect. There's also unsigned players out there who could conceivably have been signed.

 

[db2011]

DSL already provided that and you backed off your stance man...

He did not provide it, he interpreted my words in an ungenerous way. I know what a liar is Fro so stop it.

 

[Viqsi]

I'm not calling him a liar, I never did. I take his words with skepticism, but I don't disbelieve what he's saying. Whether he's telling everything is another story.

If we could unstick ourselves from understanding an "action, please" position as wanting a move, any move, Jenner-be-damned, we'd be better able to have this discussion. I wouldn't have ever wanted a move like that. Leopold for a 5th was perfect. There's also unsigned players out there who could conceivably have been signed.

What you continue to fail to understand is that those moves were not available because nobody else was offering them. The only available deals were those "make a move, any move, Jenner-be-damned" trades, as you put it.

 

[db2011]

What you continue to fail to understand is that those moves were not available because nobody else was offering them. The only available deals were those "make a move, any move, Jenner-be-damned" trades, as you put it.

You make your luck. If you're an effective GM who'd like to avoid a very damaging losing streak, you don't wait for other people's offers.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I'm not calling him a liar, I never did. I take his words with skepticism, but I don't disbelieve what he's saying. Whether he's telling everything is another story.

What is there to be skeptical of if he's not lying?

If we could unstick ourselves from understanding an "action, please" position as wanting a move, any move, Jenner-be-damned, we'd be better able to have this discussion. I wouldn't have ever wanted a move like that. Leopold for a 5th was perfect. There's also unsigned players out there who could conceivably have been signed.

Nuh-uh. Discussion had and ended.

 

[Hawkscap]

I really hope this works out for Morin. The Hawks fanbase is split on Morin.

Half (me included) thinks Q gave him the short stick and he is a scorer who can play the 3rd line and top out at 2nd line minutes. The kid has been a proven scorer. P Lease note that this year he was placed on the 4th line getting 7 mins a game.

Q has really run out a bunch of prospects Pirri, both Hayes, Olsen and now Morin.

Now I expect the other half of Hawks fans to say Morin is **** and can't score.

 

[CoachWithNoTeam]

I'm just not sure why the sentiment on this board is that Jarmo hasn't done anything to right the ship.

Claimed Skille on Waivers
Claimed Cracknell on Waivers
Claimed Connauton on Waivers
Traded 5th Round Pick for Leopold
Traded Erixon for Morin

Overall added Skille, Cracknell, Connauton, Leopold (salary retained?), Morin in exchange for Erixon and 5th.

Granted, Cracknell hasn't made a big impact, and Morin hasn't played a game yet... But Skille added some immediate relief when things were rough - and the defensemen have been great (those transactions were actually done immediately after the Tyutin injury was announced)

I understand that none of these guys are the surefire first liners that everyone loves to dream about, but it was pretty exceptional asset management.

 

[Nanabijou]

I really hope this works out for Morin. The Hawks fanbase is split on Morin.

Half (me included) thinks Q gave him the short stick and he is a scorer who can play the 3rd line and top out at 2nd line minutes. The kid has been a proven scorer. P Lease note that this year he was placed on the 4th line getting 7 mins a game.

Q has really run out a bunch of prospects Pirri, both Hayes, Olsen and now Morin.

Now I expect the other half of Hawks fans to say Morin is **** and can't score.

Thanks for the input and for getting this thread back on track. I could probably reply with a similar response regarding Erixon and Richards.

Seems like a reasonable trade and I'm interested in seeing what Morin can do.

 

[ca5150]

My friend that's a die hard Hawks fan said he is a good third liner that plays tough and can score if given the minutes and isn't afraid to drop the gloves. I like the trade on paper, was never a fan of Erixon, too soft for a defensemen.

 

[SuperGenius]

I'm just not sure why the sentiment on this board is that Jarmo hasn't done anything to right the ship.

Claimed Skille on Waivers
Claimed Cracknell on Waivers
Claimed Connauton on Waivers
Traded 5th Round Pick for Leopold
Traded Erixon for Morin

Overall added Skille, Cracknell, Connauton, Leopold (salary retained?), Morin in exchange for Erixon and 5th.

Granted, Cracknell hasn't made a big impact, and Morin hasn't played a game yet... But Skille added some immediate relief when things were rough - and the defensemen have been great (those transactions were actually done immediately after the Tyutin injury was announced)

I understand that none of these guys are the surefire first liners that everyone loves to dream about, but it was pretty exceptional asset management.

People are upset because he didn't make a move for Eberle or some other such 'name' player, that's all. They wanted the sizzle of a good deal for a top scoring winger - which of course, no other GM has been able to manage either, but that's beside the point... Add in that it's clear that no result=nothing done, and you've some unhappy folks. The best part of their stance is that when a move is made, they can say GMJK got the wrong guy or that the guy's a plug too - doubling down on their ability to be dissatisfied with both something and nothing at the same time. It's brilliant, really.

 

[ChiHawk21]

We liked Morin over in chicago. Couldnt find any space for him in the top 9. He will be a pretty good 3rd liner for you. He is better than skille for sure unless jack has improved dramatically latley.

If he gets the ice time he will be able to produce for you.

Concensis was that we liked what we saw out of Erixon in his first game. Hopefully he keeps it up.

 

[Xoggz22]

I have a hard time with this discussion because we're not discussing anything concrete.

Does anybody have some names they can throw out there - of guys passed through waivers between roughly Oct. 15th and Nov. 15th? Or guys who were definitely being shopped, that you think Jarmo should have bid on?

This... And more this. when you have a team that drops that many players to injury I'm not sure the impact to roster limits (50 contract limit still apply?). Picking up others castoffs doesn't sound like a recipe to stop a losing streak but making a move that would help short and long term might have. I just don't see how a fair trade is made when people know you are desperate. I do recall seeing Joey being a target...that wouldn't have been good

 

[Fro]

Skille has been solid...nothing to warrant the top 10 pick he was, but I'm a fan...if he and skille are the wingers on the 3rd line, I'm ok with that...

seems like we're gonna start Morin on the 4th (he practiced with Chaput and Tropp today) and let him work his way in...see where it goes