Ticket/Attendance Discussion: The Sequel

[Buffdog]

Nowhere did I assert that. People don't need to be treated like criminals because they can't conform to our narrow society. They deserve to be treated like humans - we should house and provide them care. It will be less costly to society in the long-run anyways.



This is bullshit and puts the onus on the individual instead of actually forming a compassionate, caring, functional society.

OK, sounds like you have somebetter ideas, but we're all still waiting for you to.tell.us what they are

There are laws on record regarding drugs, public intoxication, harassment, trespassing, assault, etc that are broken every day

At rhe end of the day, a person's actions are their own responsibility. The degradation of that idea is what has led us here in the first place

OR... let's stop giving KFC shit for being poor defensively. It's not his fault, its how he was raised and coached. He deserves to be on the first line. In fact, everyone deserves to be on the first line!

Been volunteering with the homeless for a while now. What I've noticed is a bigger divide in people after the pandemic. Before covid hit there were many volunteers and people willing to help and volunteer. Again before the pandemic stories of compassion were easily heard. Like it or not the truth is people were divided during the last few years in a negative way.

I see less volunteers and hear more stories of people preserving themselves over helping others.

Bottom line for me is that we cant ask others (government , business etc.) to do what needs to be done we need to go out and do it ourselves.

If you have a problem with homelessness and how our most vulnerable are treated get out there and make change happen.

You're assuming everyone wants to be helped. If given the choice between being housed and fed but having to give up their addiction or living in a tent as an addict, not every person would choose the former

 

[Joe Hallenback]

I will share a story with all of you. Its my story. Its also very much the story of a lot if not most of the indigenous people living here.

My Grandfather and Grandmother were products of residential schools. Both were taken from there families at the age of 6. My grandfather we know very little what happened to him. What we do know is in snippets he would let out when he was drunk. One of the stories he would tell was when he spoke in Cree at school when he first got there at the age of 6. The priest would take him to a closet in the back of the classroom and hang him by both thumbs all day. He wouldn't talk about much though but his scars were deep.

My Grandmother was much more open. Beaten and sexually abused by the nuns for years. She finally ran away at 13 and met my grandfather. Both are what you call co dependents. Both suffered massive abuse for years and both coped with by drinking. They had my dad soon after. My dad grew up in extreme poverty. My grandfather was actually a successful fishermen back then. When I my dad got older and started to work for him he realized they shouldn't be poor. My grandfather made a 1000 dollars a month fishing, alot of money back then. But he gave it away to the 2 "white" guys who worked for him. He was left with a 100 dollars a month after he paid those 2 guys. Those men knew what they were doing and knew it left my grandfather poor and unable to support his family. They knew if they gave him a bottle of whiskey he would just let them rob him month after month. My dad called them out at 10 years year old. They threatened to kill him if he told his dad. He did anyways and you know what my grandfather did? Nothing. "Just let them have it" he told my dad.

My father never knew what his parents went through. They never talked about it. He just believed they were the drunk stupid indians everyone talked about. He hated them. He hated being Indian. He was with the help of my Mother many years later able to escape his own battle with alcoholism and break that cycle of abuse. I am the product of that and I am lucky because alot of relatives are not so lucky. My grandparents had 11 kids and I have many cousins who have continued that cycle of abuse.

The idea that the original people of this land are "coddled" and "useless" offends me and it should offend everyone. Without us the original settlers would have all died. We lived here for thousands of years and we were not lazy drunks doing nothing. That only happened after we were taken advantaged off and others benefitted greatly from it. Anyone that comes from a welfare life knows how difficult it is to escape. We have an entire group of people living that life, a life perpetuated by the people that we helped and too be told years later to get over it is an insult.

 

[Finnflash]

OK, sounds like you have somebetter ideas, but we're all still waiting for you to.tell.us what they are

There are laws on record regarding drugs, public intoxication, harassment, trespassing, assault, etc that are broken every day

At rhe end of the day, a person's actions are their own responsibility. The degradation of that idea is what has led us here in the first place

OR... let's stop giving KFC shit for being poor defensively. It's not his fault, its how he was raised and coached. He deserves to be on the first line. In fact, everyone deserves to be on the first line!


You're assuming everyone wants to be helped. If given the choice between being housed and fed but having to give up their addiction or living in a tent as an addict, not every person would choose the former

Your not understanding addiction properly. Given the choice without the hold that addiction can have everyone and I mean everyone would choose to eat and have a warm bed.

Mental health is a bigger issue with homelessness than addiction is

 

[ERYX]

Agree to disagree is for things like pineapple on pizza - not for deciding who should be discarded to the poorest depths of our society. Not for judging other people's self-worth based on whether they can conform to our narrow view of what being "successful" means. It's not for deciding someone is a criminal because they cannot afford housing or food.

How we treat our most vulnerable tells us a lot about us as a society, and in North America we have chosen to discard and demonize ours. Makes me proud to be Canadian.

Interesting discussion. I'm probably halfway between you and @sipowicz on this one, or maybe just totally different take.

I agree with you that homelessness should not be criminalized and putting people in jail won't help anything; from a brutally pragmatic and non-compassionate perspective, jailing people costs MUCH more than welfare or shelters, or the sort of assistance.

I think we need to consider the causes ... why is homelessness on the rise? You seem to blame capitalism, I would suggest that there are other, non-capitalism related causes, mostly reckless government policies. Of course, the legacy media is essentially the propaganda mouthpiece of the Liberal party of Canada so they will never point to the real causes, but take housing ... housing prices have skyrocketed in recent years. Is this capitalism? Or is it a factor of over one million new people being brought in the last few years who need houses causing more demand than the supply can handle? Also, inflation, is that purely capitalism or does the reckless printing of money and punitive carbon taxes play a role (consider how much is transported by things that burn fossil fuels)?

I am by no means a libertarian let alone an anarcho-capitalist, but that said, socialism isn't working in this country either and has never worked. There must be a happy medium and I think it's important that compassion manifest itself in ways other than "the government must take care of them". I think it is more effective and much more efficient and humanizing for families, churches, other local communities to be the main helpers with these issues. But when you can be seriously punished for giving food or clothing to the homeless, it's not surprising such grass roots supports have dried up.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

I will share a story with all of you. Its my story. Its also very much the story of a lot if not most of the indigenous people living here.

My Grandfather and Grandmother were products of residential schools. Both were taken from there families at the age of 6. My grandfather we know very little what happened to him. What we do know is in snippets he would let out when he was drunk. One of the stories he would tell was when he spoke in Cree at school when he first got there at the age of 6. The priest would take him to a closet in the back of the classroom and hang him by both thumbs all day. He wouldn't talk about much though but his scars were deep.

My Grandmother was much more open. Beaten and sexually abused by the nuns for years. She finally ran away at 13 and met my grandfather. Both are what you call co dependents. Both suffered massive abuse for years and both coped with by drinking. They had my dad soon after. My dad grew up in extreme poverty. My grandfather was actually a successful fishermen back then. When I my dad got older and started to work for him he realized they shouldn't be poor. My grandfather made a 1000 dollars a month fishing, alot of money back then. But he gave it away to the 2 "white" guys who worked for him. He was left with a 100 dollars a month after he paid those 2 guys. Those men knew what they were doing and knew it left my grandfather poor and unable to support his family. They knew if they gave him a bottle of whiskey he would just let them rob him month after month. My dad called them out at 10 years year old. They threatened to kill him if he told his dad. He did anyways and you know what my grandfather did? Nothing. "Just let them have it" he told my dad.

My father never knew what his parents went through. They never talked about it. He just believed they were the drunk stupid indians everyone talked about. He hated them. He hated being Indian. He was with the help of my Mother many years later able to escape his own battle with alcoholism and break that cycle of abuse. I am the product of that and I am lucky because alot of relatives are not so lucky. My grandparents had 11 kids and I have many cousins who have continued that cycle of abuse.

The idea that the original people of this land are "coddled" and "useless" offends me and it should offend everyone. Without us the original settlers would have all died. We lived here for thousands of years and we were not lazy drunks doing nothing. That only happened after we were taken advantaged off and others benefitted greatly from it. Anyone that comes from a welfare life knows how difficult it is to escape. We have an entire group of people living that life, a life perpetuated by the people that we helped and too be told years later to get over it is an insult.

Thanks for sharing. Great post - with terribly sad content.

If anyone is interested I suggest reading the book 5 little Indians. It is fiction - not a true story per se, but captures a lot of the experiences Hallenback described and gives context for the how/why. Short quick read that lines up to everything Joe described.

Anyways, all that being said….
Letting Chisholm go was still a bullshit move though Joe!

 

[SLAYER]

OK, sounds like you have somebetter ideas, but we're all still waiting for you to.tell.us what they are

There are laws on record regarding drugs, public intoxication, harassment, trespassing, assault, etc that are broken every day

At rhe end of the day, a person's actions are their own responsibility. The degradation of that idea is what has led us here in the first place

OR... let's stop giving KFC shit for being poor defensively. It's not his fault, its how he was raised and coached. He deserves to be on the first line. In fact, everyone deserves to be on the first line!


You're assuming everyone wants to be helped. If given the choice between being housed and fed but having to give up their addiction or living in a tent as an addict, not every person would choose the former

That's quite the extreme reaching you're doing here. First off, my ideas are already better than yours because my ideas would help the people , not punish them for things out of their own control. If I were to give any one specific suggestion, you would simply cry "BUT WHAT ABOUT??" about try to find any flaw in an idea. There is no one perfect solution, and decrying that any solution is not perfect isn't the "gotcha' you think it might be.

At the end of the day, society needs to be responsible for all of its people, not only the ones it arbitrarily deems worthy. Personal responsibility is a pathetic cop out. Obviously personal responsibility DOES factor in, but there are many other societal factors that far outweigh this. These need to be addressed first.

Also, saying that "not everyone wants to be helped" is another cheap cop out. However true sounding this is, the extremely large majority of people when offered material help would be grateful. There may be a small portion of the population that needs another type of help, who would refuse other forms of help - but let's not allow that to dissuade us from actually helping people who need it.

 

[macmaroon]

I will share a story with all of you. Its my story. Its also very much the story of a lot if not most of the indigenous people living here.

My Grandfather and Grandmother were products of residential schools. Both were taken from there families at the age of 6. My grandfather we know very little what happened to him. What we do know is in snippets he would let out when he was drunk. One of the stories he would tell was when he spoke in Cree at school when he first got there at the age of 6. The priest would take him to a closet in the back of the classroom and hang him by both thumbs all day. He wouldn't talk about much though but his scars were deep.

My Grandmother was much more open. Beaten and sexually abused by the nuns for years. She finally ran away at 13 and met my grandfather. Both are what you call co dependents. Both suffered massive abuse for years and both coped with by drinking. They had my dad soon after. My dad grew up in extreme poverty. My grandfather was actually a successful fishermen back then. When I my dad got older and started to work for him he realized they shouldn't be poor. My grandfather made a 1000 dollars a month fishing, alot of money back then. But he gave it away to the 2 "white" guys who worked for him. He was left with a 100 dollars a month after he paid those 2 guys. Those men knew what they were doing and knew it left my grandfather poor and unable to support his family. They knew if they gave him a bottle of whiskey he would just let them rob him month after month. My dad called them out at 10 years year old. They threatened to kill him if he told his dad. He did anyways and you know what my grandfather did? Nothing. "Just let them have it" he told my dad.

My father never knew what his parents went through. They never talked about it. He just believed they were the drunk stupid indians everyone talked about. He hated them. He hated being Indian. He was with the help of my Mother many years later able to escape his own battle with alcoholism and break that cycle of abuse. I am the product of that and I am lucky because alot of relatives are not so lucky. My grandparents had 11 kids and I have many cousins who have continued that cycle of abuse.

The idea that the original people of this land are "coddled" and "useless" offends me and it should offend everyone. Without us the original settlers would have all died. We lived here for thousands of years and we were not lazy drunks doing nothing. That only happened after we were taken advantaged off and others benefitted greatly from it. Anyone that comes from a welfare life knows how difficult it is to escape. We have an entire group of people living that life, a life perpetuated by the people that we helped and too be told years later to get over it is an insult.

Thank you for sharing your story.

 

[SLAYER]

The idea that the original people of this land are "coddled" and "useless" offends me and it should offend everyone. Without us the original settlers would have all died. We lived here for thousands of years and we were not lazy drunks doing nothing. That only happened after we were taken advantaged off and others benefitted greatly from it. Anyone that comes from a welfare life knows how difficult it is to escape. We have an entire group of people living that life, a life perpetuated by the people that we helped and too be told years later to get over it is an insult.

Only the truly enlightened and smartest among us believe we have improved on what the indigenous population already knew about the earth and society, for thousands of years before the "new world" arrived. Thank you for sharing your story.

I think we need to consider the causes ... why is homelessness on the rise? You seem to blame capitalism, I would suggest that there are other, non-capitalism related causes, mostly reckless government policies. Of course, the legacy media is essentially the propaganda mouthpiece of the Liberal party of Canada so they will never point to the real causes, but take housing ... housing prices have skyrocketed in recent years. Is this capitalism?

... yes? Of course it is. This is capitalism working the way it is intended to, being enforced by our capitalist governments... what else would it be? I'm not going to get into the whole "this isn't real capitalism" debate on this website - just know that this is definitely "real capitalism"

 

[Buffdog]

Interesting discussion. I'm probably halfway between you and @sipowicz on this one, or maybe just totally different take.

I agree with you that homelessness should not be criminalized and putting people in jail won't help anything; from a brutally pragmatic and non-compassionate perspective, jailing people costs MUCH more than welfare or shelters, or the sort of assistance.

I think we need to consider the causes ... why is homelessness on the rise? You seem to blame capitalism, I would suggest that there are other, non-capitalism related causes, mostly reckless government policies. Of course, the legacy media is essentially the propaganda mouthpiece of the Liberal party of Canada so they will never point to the real causes, but take housing ... housing prices have skyrocketed in recent years. Is this capitalism? Or is it a factor of over one million new people being brought in the last few years who need houses causing more demand than the supply can handle? Also, inflation, is that purely capitalism or does the reckless printing of money and punitive carbon taxes play a role (consider how much is transported by things that burn fossil fuels)?

I am by no means a libertarian let alone an anarcho-capitalist, but that said, socialism isn't working in this country either and has never worked. There must be a happy medium and I think it's important that compassion manifest itself in ways other than "the government must take care of them". I think it is more effective and much more efficient and humanizing for families, churches, other local communities to be the main helpers with these issues. But when you can be seriously punished for giving food or clothing to the homeless, it's not surprising such grass roots supports have dried up.

I think I'm probably about where you re on this

As an interesting aside, something that I noticed while moving my daughter out to Halifax and subsequently visiting on multiple occasions, is that they handle the same problem.somewhat differently.

Their tent encampments are set up on govt property. They are orderly and they have security on site. They even provide insulated ice fishing shelters for those who need them.

The sites are clean and debris free, with ample garbage cans and porta potties. In the summer, there are clotheslines and folding lawn chairs

I think it would be reasonable to supportnpwolle in this way IF they agreed to live within the laws of our society. Break the laws, go to jail. I'm still scratching my head at how that idea became controversial

 

[tbcwpg]

You're assuming everyone wants to be helped. If given the choice between being housed and fed but having to give up their addiction or living in a tent as an addict, not every person would choose the former

Breaking addiction isn't as simple as just making a choice. That's why it's an addiction.

 

[SLAYER]

I think it would be reasonable to supportnpwolle in this way IF they agreed to live within the laws of our society. Break the laws, go to jail. I'm still scratching my head at how that idea became controversial

We're almost there! Now if instead of treating them like animals and actually providing them housing and support, they could have a chance to succeed.

Also, laws have never been a barometer for morality. Not all laws are just or fair or moral, do not be mistaken. Some laws aren't worth the paper they've been printed on and deserve to be broken. This is some big "they should have complied!" energy.

 

[Buffdog]

We're almost there! Now if instead of treating them like animals and actually providing them housing and support, they could have a chance to succeed.

Also, laws have never been a barometer for morality. Not all laws are just or fair or moral, do not be mistaken. Some laws aren't worth the paper they've been printed on and deserve to be broken. This is some big "they should have complied!" energy.

Don't be a dick. I'm as compassionate as the next guy but I'm also pragmatic

Laws are laws. I disagree with tons of them but I still obey them.. that's the backbone of our society. We don't get to pick and choose which ones to obey. Shit would fall apart pretty quickly if we did... oh wait, look where we are? I wonder how that happened lol

 

[DannyGallivan]

Portage and Donald isn't the ghetto. It's taken a turn for the worse - especially since the pandemic, but it's hardly the epicenter of violent crime in Winnipeg. It's a central downtown location. Lots of cities put their arenas in similar spots.

Here's a map of homicides 2003-2019. The arena is south of the worst of it.

It just looks like a ghetto, which gives a horrible impression of the city. Ever see the front of thd air Canada building during the day? Isn’t there a Dollorama in the heart of Portage avenue? Yeah, that will attract free agents and suburban consumers.

 

[Buffdog]

Breaking addiction isn't as simple as just making a choice. That's why it's an addiction.

That's not what i said.

But breaking addiction 100% STARTS with a decision on the part of addict that they want to change. That goes for any addiction

 

[tbcwpg]

That's not what i said.

But breaking addiction 100% STARTS with a decision on the part of addict that they want to change. That goes for any addiction

It does start with that choice, sure, but the addiction makes it very difficult to want to make that choice, and if there isn't strong enough support for people in that situation, the addiction will almost always win.

 

[DannyGallivan]

So, there was a time when if you broke the law, you'd go to prison. If you weren't mentally sane, you were institutionalized

That might not be THE answer, but it was AN answer.

One of the scariest things these days is watching the breaking down and deterioration of the very idea of law and order in our society.. and that's coming from someone who has an irrational disdain for authority.

Yes, I realize marginalized people have rights. But, we also have laws

Malcolm Gladwell brought up a study where New York’ crime wave in the early 80’s plummeted once money was spent repairing broken windows, removing graffiti and just cleaning things up. Compare the cleanliness of Japan’s various downtowns compared to Winnipeg or other North American cities. Then compare the crime.

That would be a good step. We aren’t going to solve all of society’s issues all at once, but that is no reason to let things deteriorate further.

 

[SLAYER]

Don't be a dick. I'm as compassionate as the next guy but I'm also pragmatic

Laws are laws. I disagree with tons of them but I still obey them.. that's the backbone of our society. We don't get to pick and choose which ones to obey. Shit would fall apart pretty quickly if we did... oh wait, look where we are? I wonder how that happened lol

Naw you can miss me with that rhetoric. We all have the capacity to choose which laws we obey and will all use our own moral compass (or fear of repercussions) to decide for ourselves.

If the only reason you don't murder people is because it's illegal then I have some sad news for you... Like I said, the law is no barometer for morality and no one has to obey a law just because you said so.

To make unjust laws and enforce them on the homeless (or society at large) is no good deed, and you won't convince me otherwise.

 

[Buffdog]

Naw you can miss me with that rhetoric. We all have the capacity to choose which laws we obey and will all use our own moral compass (or fear of repercussions) to decide for ourselves.

If the only reason you don't murder people is because it's illegal then I have some sad news for you... Like I said, the law is no barometer for morality and no one has to obey a law just because you said so.

To make unjust laws and enforce them on the homeless (or society at large) is no good deed, and you won't convince me otherwise.

Interesting that you brought up killing... is it ever justified? War? Self defence? Pedophiles?

The problem with what you're saying (which I dont 100% disagree with, BTW) is that giving people the right to choose which rules to follow and when yo follow them just doesn't work.. one person's justification is reasonable to them, but not to everyone. How do you get around that? By forming a common consensus in society, which is what we've done. If you don't like the consensus, remove yourself from the society

 

[tbcwpg]

Malcolm Gladwell brought up a study where New York’ crime wave in the early 80’s plummeted once money was spent repairing broken windows, removing graffiti and just cleaning things up. Compare the cleanliness of Japan’s various downtowns compared to Winnipeg or other North American cities. Then compare the crime.

That would be a good step. We aren’t going to solve all of society’s issues all at once, but that is no reason to let things deteriorate further.

There's a massive cultural difference between Japan and North America that you're leaving out in that comparison.

 

[DannyGallivan]

There's a massive cultural difference between Japan and North America that you're leaving out in that comparison.

If you’re saying we’re culturally inferior, you just scored some points using my downtown cleanliness and crime example.

I think the improvement in NYC is the more relevant example then.

 

[SLAYER]

Interesting that you brought up killing... is it ever justified? War? Self defence? Pedophiles?

The problem with what you're saying (which I dont 100% disagree with, BTW) is that giving people the right to choose which rules to follow and when yo follow them just doesn't work.. one person's justification is reasonable to them, but not to everyone. How do you get around that? By forming a common consensus in society, which is what we've done. If you don't like the consensus, remove yourself from the society

No, I brought up murder, not killing. The two are different concepts, you're moving the scope of the argument.

Also, I don't recall having any say in which laws we should have, do you? The point I was illustrating (which you've missed) is that touting the law like some sort of champion of morality is hypocritical and is never an acceptable argument for what is right/good. All other arguments/counters are missing the point.

Where I come from, when something is broken we mend it. We look at what caused the issue and fix it. We don't look at the less fortunate and say "These people are law breakers, we need to round them up and punish them. They're unsightly and bother us and make us uncomfortable." So no, I don't think I will "remove myself" from society. Instead I think I will help to fix society, despite some people's best efforts to the contrary.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Naw you can miss me with that rhetoric. We all have the capacity to choose which laws we obey and will all use our own moral compass (or fear of repercussions) to decide for ourselves.

If the only reason you don't murder people is because it's illegal then I have some sad news for you... Like I said, the law is no barometer for morality and no one has to obey a law just because you said so.

To make unjust laws and enforce them on the homeless (or society at large) is no good deed, and you won't convince me otherwise.

What would you consider an unjust law?

 

[JKG33]

There's a massive cultural difference between Japan and North America that you're leaving out in that comparison.

There is, and we used to be a society that wasn't too far off from Japan. Only more recent have things gone to shit here, and it's really easy yet extremely politically incorrect to connect the dots.

Look at the cultural makeup of neighborhoods where stores lock up everything in a cage vs the makeup of neighborhoods where customers can shop freely.

 

[Channelcat]

It actually isn't, as evidenced by the extremely high rates of homelessness. Your bootstrap pullin' self-responsible rhetoric is better kept to yourself, because it doesn't actually help anyone.

It's the only way my friend.

 

[B33R LEAGUE]

With Betman in town, how fitting is it that its the coldest day of the year?

I dont know why i get a chuckle out of this, but i do.