Ticket/Attendance Discussion: The Sequel

[DannyGallivan]

Downtown has been that way forever.

It was dodgy as hell even before Portage Place opened.

I lived in an apartment downtown from ‘96 to ‘02. I used to walk from my apartment on Hargrace to the nightclubs in the exchange or Osborne most weekends. I often stumbled home drunk at 2:00 in the morning. Never did I ever feel unsafe or threatened. Not once. Today I have second thoughts about even going to the Forks.

The worst thing I could say about downtown 20 and 30 years ago was that it was kinda sleepy, a little dull. Today is gross and unsafe. We need to take our downtown back, but politically correct decision making is making the situation worse, not better.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

Not sure if this whole Forever Winnipeg campaign was a complete PR screw up, or exactly the reaction that they wanted. It doesn't take a genius to see that this line:

Our commitment to keeping the Jets in Winnipeg, forever, has never been stronger. But it takes all of us.

Would trigger reaction.

The strategically placed 'BUT' (that I underlined and italicized) creates the condition to 'Our commitment to keeping the Jets in Winnipeg'

They could have softened it using 'And', or they could have separated this into two sentences. As stated, the word 'But' basically negates or conditions the first part of the sentence with the second. So now they are in the press saying hey this is just a normal season ticket drive. Nothing to see here.

Basically they have now laid down the public 'I told you so' if they decide to move the team in the future. Not that I think that is that plan. They are making all kinds of investments around the arena and the Jets are the anchor tenant.

And so that's where I am on the fence here - was this a screw up, or are they getting exactly the response/noise/discussion/attention that they wanted?

I believe it's exactly what they want in terms of response.

Everything they say is true and the same can be said for every franchise in the league, but under our context it's a pointed tug on the emotions of those that were around when we lost the team in 96.

Surprised they played this card at the very first instance of them having to actually put a marketing effort in to attract/maintain their season tix holders.

For years they reaped the benefit of having an all in market that required zero marketing to attract fans. It is a luxury most franchises do not get to experience.

These markets have had to work at creating interests, attracting new fans. Teams like Carolina and Tampa have worked creatively and very hard at creating a strong fanbase by clever marketing while WPG has sat back while being sold out regardless.

Would Carolina's marketing scheme work if their slogan was "Support us or we will leave!" doubt it, not sure why True North thinks it will here. Instead Carolina has created clever marketing ads, Twitter feeds, smart fan interactions. They had to work hard and be ahead of the curve to survive.

True North should be working on attracting new fans to the games, marketing to younger people that were not around when the Jets left in 96 and could care less about True Norths underhanded marketing threats. We have large immigration over the past few years in Manitoba, with potential new fans to attract to the games as well. Attract a larger female audience, have special campaigns aimed at lady's night with specials ect. Get creative.

Instead True North takes the lazy avenue by pulling a card that really only pertains to a portions of their potential fanbase. Anyone that was in their 50s and older back in 1996 are now 75 plus in age, with most probably stopping going to games regularly. Thanks for threatening those that probably are not season ticket holder candidates.

 

[jgimp]

True. You need both.

If not winning, at least some direction. As a fan I would be fine to see an injection of youth, kids who give it their all every night and are tying to prove they are winning, even if they aren’t. It’s a lot better than going through the motions, playing down to lower competition and resting on their laurels that we have all been witnessed to the last few years.
If it means moving on from those questionable players who have seemingly given up, then you do it for the long term viability of the organization and its fans.

 

[blues10]

Good recap of how businesses were originally shut out due to the mad rush.

I think it is also probably a bit more nuanced. As an example our business wanted to get a box initially but their weren’t any available…..Although we didn’t land on company tickets, I had 6 seats with people from work, my business partner got 6 seats, our CFO had 4 seats with family, our head of payroll had two seats. So lots of people in our head office had tickets or were part of groups. I think most business people I know had season tickets or were part of season ticket groups. I wouldn’t be shocked if a high % of the people that were at the Chamber lunch were either former season ticket holders or current. Not like the business community turned their backs I just think their were allot more in individual owners hands vs in their company name.

The challenge now is the product has lost some of the cachet so you end up with expensive inventory that is often not easy to give away and if you do give it away its not valued like it once was.

Business might need to step back up now but TNSE has to be much better, Honestly its their move. They can’t remain below average at running their premium priced business and expect fear to fill the building.

Lots of really good points in your post. Fear to fill the building likely not too enticing to the business community either.

TNSE also made it impossible to transfer ownership of tickets. I would speculate that many business owners were unable to transfer the ownership of their personal tickets to their business.

TNSE also had major hoops to jump through to even raffle off a pair of tickets at a social. Some of the problems now being encountered can really be attributed to what many on these boards saw coming and TNSE wouldn’t or didn’t anticipate.

As recently as 2 seasons ago they would not let 2 people I know SSH since day 1 move locations to a pair of seats beside me that were not being renewed. Instead of losing 2 SSH they ended up losing 4. My rep said” those seats are in high demand your friend can’t move there”. Well there are now 6 empty seats in a row front of me.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Lots of really good points in your post. Fear to fill the building likely not too enticing to the business community either.

TNSE also made it impossible to transfer ownership of tickets. I would speculate that many business owners were unable to transfer the ownership of their personal tickets to their business.

TNSE also had major hoops to jump through to even raffle off a pair of tickets at a social. Some of the problems now being encountered can really be attributed to what many on these boards saw coming and TNSE wouldn’t or didn’t anticipate.

As recently as 2 seasons ago they would not let 2 people I know SSH since day 1 move locations to a pair of seats beside me that were not being renewed. Instead of losing 2 SSH they ended up losing 4. My rep said” those seats are in high demand your friend can’t move there”. Well there are now 6 empty seats in a row front of me.

TNSE has run its season ticket management too much like a bureaucracy in the past. They are also far too reactive to issues instead of proactive. They did loosen the chains on season ticket contracts until they were losing customers; they didn’t invest in pre game and in game production (the kind most other arenas have had for years) until they were losing customers; they only introduced discount Tuesdays after they were losing customers; now, they are reminding businesses that they can buy tickets too … after they have lost customers.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

The bombers I think have been a great success every year they've been in the new stadium.

The goldeyes are one of the most successful independent baseball clubs in North America.

But look at the struggles of the Winnipeg Ice.

My conclusion is I think The Winnipeg hockey market is oversaturated, and is due for a correction.

And way too much is made out of the danger of going downtown during a Jets game day.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

 

[DannyGallivan]

If you’re comparing them to the Jets, that is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[DannyGallivan]

The bombers I think have been a great success every year they've been in the new stadium.

The goldeyes are one of the most successful independent baseball clubs in North America.

But look at the struggles of the Winnipeg Ice.

My conclusion is I think The Winnipeg hockey market is oversaturated, and is due for a correction.

And way too much is made out of the danger of going downtown during a Jets game day.

That is one of several theories. While it makes sense, I don’t think that very many regular Ice or Moose fans would become Jets season ticket holders. I think they may go to a few Jets games but that’s it. The Ice and Mooae are simply inexpensive alternatives.

 

[cbcwpg]

The bombers I think have been a great success every year they've been in the new stadium.

The goldeyes are one of the most successful independent baseball clubs in North America.

But look at the struggles of the Winnipeg Ice.

My conclusion is I think The Winnipeg hockey market is oversaturated, and is due for a correction.

And way too much is made out of the danger of going downtown during a Jets game day.

I agree, but IMO the saturation is only between the Moose and the Ice. Their price point is very similar, so people, with young kids mostly, had to pick between one or the other. I don't believe if Winnipeg loses the Ice or even if them and the Moose hypothetically went away, you would see a significant uptick in Jets season tickets. You might get a few IMO, but not the 1000s the Jets need to fill the gap.

 

[cbcwpg]

I think the biggest issue with TNSE when it comes to the STH was that for the seasons up until Covid hit, when a STH didn't renew, they didn't take the time to really find out why. Why did we lose a customer and what can we do to keep them or get them back? That was the question TNSE never asked. Because they had a waiting list and a market that sold itself, they didn't care why someone left, because their approach was to just sign the next person waiting on the list.

Well, because of numerous issues, the list has dried up. TNSE is going to have to sell people on why attend the game in person and more importantly, be a STH.

 

[White Out 902]

If you’re comparing them to the Jets, that is like comparing apples to oranges.

Yeah. The Bombers hve a way nicer venue that's newer adn the game day experience is 10 fold better

 

[surixon]

I think the biggest issue with TNSE when it comes to the STH was that for the seasons up until Covid hit, when a STH didn't renew, they didn't take the time to really find out why. Why did we lose a customer and what can we do to keep them or get them back? That was the question TNSE never asked. Because they had a waiting list and a market that sold itself, they didn't care why someone left, because their approach was to just sign the next person waiting on the list.

Well, because of numerous issues, the list has dried up. TNSE is going to have to sell people on why attend the game in person and more importantly, be a STH.

Yup, they now have to work to sell the product. It will be good for them to do the research, collect the data and then try to win people back.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Should be noted that the bombers are writing off nearly a million in profit to support valour this year.

They were under 3,500 per game last year.

Which goes to an underrated aspect of all of this: on ice success.

I measure a successful season in the NHL if you win a playoff series.

The number of seasons where the Jets were able to win a series in front of home fans since they returned is one.

 

[Gm0ney]

The "T" in TNSE has always stood for for "Tone-deaf"...

 

[Gm0ney]

Yup, they now have to work to sell the product. It will be good for them to do the research, collect the data and then try to win people back.

It costs 5x to 25x more to gain a new customer than it does to retain an existing one.

They really shot themselves in the foot.

When ticket sales started to soften, they should've protected STHs - e.g. buy back up to 5 or 10 games per season at the STH price - and never undercut that price in resale. But they kind of went the opposite way...they seemed to always be testing the limits of demand, but they were too slow to react to the tide change.

Edit: Oh and they started Jets Rewards way too early - they should've kept that powder dry until the waiting list disappeared and introduced it as part of a package to enhance the value of season tickets. Introducing it at the start of the 2013-14 season when there was no benefit (to TNSE) was a mistake...and then later dismantling it and replacing it with a much weaker program? Does anyone know what the f*** they're doing there?

 

[surixon]

It costs 5x to 25x more to gain a new customer than it does to retain an existing one.

They really shot themselves in the foot.

When ticket sales started to soften, they should've protected STHs - e.g. buy back up to 5 or 10 games per season at the STH price - and never undercut that price in resale. But they kind of went the opposite way...they seemed to always be testing the limits of demand, but they were too slow to react to the tide change.

Yup, sometimes lessons need to be learned the hard way unfortunately when a proactive approach would have likely alleviated most of the issues.

 

[robertocarlos]

They did this now because they are worried about the future 10,500 attendance.

 

[objectiveposter]

Yup, sometimes lessons need to be learned the hard way unfortunately when a proactive approach would have likely alleviated most of the issues.

LOL....when has this organization ever done anything proactive on or off the ice? I like Chipman but I've never seen a more reactive owner... he always waits until the damage is done before he changes strategies.

 

[ps241]

Lots of really good points in your post. Fear to fill the building likely not too enticing to the business community either.

TNSE also made it impossible to transfer ownership of tickets. I would speculate that many business owners were unable to transfer the ownership of their personal tickets to their business.

TNSE also had major hoops to jump through to even raffle off a pair of tickets at a social. Some of the problems now being encountered can really be attributed to what many on these boards saw coming and TNSE wouldn’t or didn’t anticipate.

As recently as 2 seasons ago they would not let 2 people I know SSH since day 1 move locations to a pair of seats beside me that were not being renewed. Instead of losing 2 SSH they ended up losing 4. My rep said” those seats are in high demand your friend can’t move there”. Well there are now 6 empty seats in a row front of me.

Your post is perfect and illustrates the primary challenge TNSE has faced. Lets face it they started out managing extreme demand challenges. I think naturally that set them up more with pretty strict policies that were designed to probably honor the wait list people and their chance to eventually get tickets when need be. I also think it gave some of the ticket reps a false sense of security and at times a bit of a "hey theres people behind you waiting for your seat if you don't like it attitude". Demand obviously softened allot faster that they predicted with the end of these multi year commitments and Covid kind of hitting at the same time and all of a sudden they went from offense to defense over night.

If I was to summarize the challenge they had and that you illustrated so perfectly in the bolded part of your post (unforced errors kill you) I will lean on my best analogy.

One of my favorite Restaurateurs is Danny Meyer and in his amazing book Setting the Table this is one of his quotes for how they build their teams:

“…employees who are the first point of contact with the customer…can come across either as agents or as gatekeepers. An agent makes things happen for others. A gatekeeper sets up barriers to keep people out. We're looking for agents.

 

[HellebuyckOurSaviour]

I used to be a half season ticket holder but prices just kept going up no matter how good or bad the team was on-ice. Food and alcohol kept going up wayyyy too fast. Thing that really got me was the entertainment value, I understand the first however many years everyone was just happy to be there and restaurants were lively (especially tavern beside for intermission). But for me it was being inside the arena where I felt as a STH you weren't really getting anything back. I'm sorry but a card for 5cents off fuel won't cut it for me lol How about for a couple games a year, they give out free Jets t-shirts with just even a logo on it? If you don't have one, at least you would if you went to the game, I think even kids would want to go to more games also knowing something like that. Plus if fans from other teams were there, they would probably just hand them over to Jets fans anyways haha but even something like how they do the 50/50 draw, you can buy tickets (maybe do this for only like 15 games for the season or something) and maybe they might be a bit pricier (1 for $20, 3 for $50, 10 for $150 for example) but just before the 2nd intermission, they announce the winner to have a chance at winning a brand new car. They drive the car out onto the ice or show it on screen in the back, and a person gets to shoot however many pucks (10 pucks, needs to make 5 or whatever) in one of those goalie cutouts in the net, and if you score the amount needed you win the car? And if you don't win, you get a gift certificate for a free spring or winter maintenance package from whichever dealer is sponsored for the car giveaway. Even have a couple games a year to giveaway like 15 free Jets jerseys to random seats during the game. I dunno, just something to attract more people to spend more money, cause once your in the arena, you usually end up spending a bit of money.

 

[Gm0ney]

Your post is perfect and illustrates the primary challenge TNSE has faced. Lets face it they started out managing extreme demand challenges. I think naturally that set them up more with pretty strict policies that were designed to probably honor the wait list people and their chance to eventually get tickets when need be. I also think it gave some of the ticket reps a false sense of security and at times a bit of a "hey theres people behind you waiting for your seat if you don't like it attitude". Demand obviously softened allot faster that they predicted with the end of these multi year commitments and Covid kind of hitting at the same time and all of a sudden they went from offense to defense over night.

If I was to summarize the challenge they had and that you illustrated so perfectly in the bolded part of your post (unforced errors kill you) I will lean on my best analogy.

One of my favorite Restaurateurs is Danny Meyer and in his amazing book Setting the Table this is one of his quotes for how they build their teams:

“…employees who are the first point of contact with the customer…can come across either as agents or as gatekeepers. An agent makes things happen for others. A gatekeeper sets up barriers to keep people out. We're looking for agents.

I have no big problem with them getting away with that "hottest ticket in town" thing for a while, but they were way too slow to see the trouble brewing. Maybe they thought the "See them rise" Era (staring in 2017-18) would keep the momentum and passion of the honeymoon going? But then Year 2 of that era fizzled out and Year 3, 4 and 5 were disastrous (plus the pandemic and its aftermath)...

Not-figuring-things-out-very-quickly seems to be another hallmark of this organization, though. 5 years of Pavelec, 8 years of Maurice, ∞ years of Chevy...

 

[Inanna]

True North should be working on attracting new fans to the games, marketing to younger people that were not around when the Jets left in 96 and could care less about True Norths underhanded marketing threats. We have large immigration over the past few years in Manitoba, with potential new fans to attract to the games as well. Attract a larger female audience, have special campaigns aimed at lady's night with specials ect. Get creative.

I've only been in Winnipeg a year so obviously I don't share your "underhanded marketing" opinion of the Jets, but I'm still confused by your rant.

TN already does work on attracting new fans, already does market to younger people, already does reach out to new immigrants, and already markets to a female audience. And no, not by a lame ladies' night promotion.

I have no problem criticizing TN for all the things they do wrong (like the damaging noise level in the arena) but I think you're projecting a bit here.

 

[jetsv2]

Not really sure where to post this, but I thought it was interesting anyway. We have never really gotten a clear picture of the ownership structure of TNSE and while arguing with a dumbass on the main board related to the topic of Jets tickets sales being down and Thomson's role in TNSE I noticed something interesting about TNSE's board of directors.

We know that Thomson owns his piece of the team through Osmington inc and Chipman through Migell-Stephenson. Thomson's company has more board seats than Chipman's company. That would seem to indicate he has a larger piece than Chipman unless the 6th board member from New Flyer is a Chipman board seat which would then indicate a 50/50 split.

Just looking at the board, it seems that Thomson at the very least owns 50% of TNSE if not more.

 

[Gnova]

I lived in an apartment downtown from ‘96 to ‘02. I used to walk from my apartment on Hargrace to the nightclubs in the exchange or Osborne most weekends. I often stumbled home drunk at 2:00 in the morning. Never did I ever feel unsafe or threatened. Not once. Today I have second thoughts about even going to the Forks.

The worst thing I could say about downtown 20 and 30 years ago was that it was kinda sleepy, a little dull. Today is gross and unsafe. We need to take our downtown back, but politically correct decision making is making the situation worse, not better.

I lived in an apartment downtown from ‘96 to ‘02. I used to walk from my apartment on Hargrace to the nightclubs in the exchange or Osborne most weekends. I often stumbled home drunk at 2:00 in the morning. Never did I ever feel unsafe or threatened. Not once. Today I have second thoughts about even going to the Forks.

The worst thing I could say about downtown 20 and 30 years ago was that it was kinda sleepy, a little dull. Today is gross and unsafe. We need to take our downtown back, but politically correct decision making is making the situation worse, not better.

Different experiences.

I lived downtown from around 91 to 94 and I was constantly asked for money, offered drugs, got jumped twice walking home from a club, and my car had its window smashed several times.

In the early 80s I used to visit downtown regularly on weekday evenings in order to hit up the comic ships while a friend went to a gym. It was really really dodgy then.

The few times I have been downtown in the last 5 years I haven't noticed it to be any worse. If anything there are more bars/restaurants open and the foot traffic improves safety.