In this case percentages aren't as relevant as the number of tickets sold.
Winnipeg has the 2nd or 3rd lowest attendance.
Ticket/Attendance Discussion: The Sequel
- Thread starter nobody imp0rtant
- Start date
Winnipeg has the 2nd or 3rd lowest attendance.
Regardless if the demand hadn't have been so high more businesses would have bought tickets at that time and once they have season tickets it is unlikely for them to get rid of them.
- Mar 10, 2010
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The economics of relocating teams is not positive for the league. They’d rather expand. A market has to be completely lifeless like Atlanta was for the NHL to move a team along. Given the cash flows in this market there’s no way the team is moving. Look at Ottawa.
roccerfeller
jets bromantic
^ Agreed
Seems like the ad campaign is part of a general “hey can everyone also be interested again please” but with a proverbial gun to the head given the 1.0 imagery and “forever” messaging
I’m sure jets have been behind the scenes courting as well
Very good points
Tom ServoMST3K
In search of a Steinbach Hero
The optimal pricing for tickets will leave seats empty. Based on the Jets' prices, I assume they are going that route instead of trying to sell out every night.
This is based on supply/demand and math.
I'll simplify numbers to make the math easy. Say you have a 10,000 seat building, and you sell out at 100 bucks per seat.
That's $1 million in revenue, 100 per cent capacity.
Now say you price tickets at $500, but only 5,000 are willing to pay that much.
That's $2.5 million in ticket revenue, 50 per cent capacity.
Now obviously this is exaggerated for effect, but the principle is still the same.
To maximize ticket revenue, you should aim to be at 95-100 per cent capacity every game, not 100 per cent. If you're selling out every night of the year, your tickets are too cheap (I suppose ideally, you price exactly to demand, but that's a hard thing to hit).
Teams have way more of an ability to generate revenue outside of ticket sales, especially nowadays, and I'd argue a great atmosphere helps drive demand and TV viewership, and you need cheap tickets to do that, but there are people who are paid full time to crunch the numbers on what exactly is needed for each team to be successful.
roccerfeller
jets bromantic
If go by 17 years, at currently we are year 12, I would argue in another 5 years you’re only going to see growth
Population will be flirting with 1 mil, and depending on how certain natural resources trend in that time, we may see even more businesses boom or set up shop
I think if anything the future is only brighter from a market and economic perspective. If you go by that same thread of logic, in 2011 Winnipeg was more small market than it is today so I only see a net positive as we count towards 2030
Hopefully if lux suites become an issue, there is a plan for another rink or some type of renovation. I have no doubt TN is setting aside $ for “the next” rink but I think this is more of the mid sized Winnipeg business market. For example say (and I don’t know if they have corporate tickets or something) but Ubisoft Winnipeg office having season tickets. Major company with a smaller office in Winnipeg that could probably have 10-20 season tickets and distribute to employees or something
But STHs are the lifeblood and core of arena atmosphere and by all accounts that experience needs to improve generally speaking
At one point 2011 Winnipeg had 20k plus people clamouring to be STH’s so the wherewithal exists
roccerfeller
jets bromantic
in context arguably it has relevance, if capacity has significance with ticket pricing ranges, as More important than attendance is average ticket price
Winnipeg could have less attendance than another market but still bring in more revenue due to higher ticket prices and thus paint a different picture of general and relative franchise health
Edit: see @Tomservomst3k- post above
voyageur
Hockey fanatic
- Jul 10, 2011
- 10,109
- 8,991
A market like Atlanta was relocated only because the owners threatened to sue the league as they had a perfectly legal buyout clause, and they wanted to sell all their assets but the investor in question wasn't interested in the Thrashers, just the arena and NBA Hawks. Otherwise, they'd still be in the league in Atlanta.
Winnipeg hasn't driven franchise values down, it's quite remarkable that a franchise that was sold for $110 million 12 years ago is worth 6X that today. If Chipman/Thomson ever sold, I'm sure they get more than their money back. All the properties and tax breaks, and casino revenue that Chipman got is still going to be there. Revitalizing Portage Place and having more of a monopoly on the walkway space downtown will be something that makes him money regardless of the Jets, if he does it right. Still the only place to go for concerts and the Moose, who would see a considerable revenue increase without the Jets.
Chipman's speech sounds a little like Don Waddell's the year the Thrashers moved. I don't think it will be that drastic, and I think it will work to some effect, but I can see a future without the Jets. I mean the city is literally caving in, downtown looks ghostly at times, it's got sewage problems on the horizon, and somebody's going to have to pay for it. More taxes is the only way, which in an economy that is breeding inflation, doesn't affect Chipman as much as his potential fans.
You add to that that finding players is becoming more difficult with no trade clauses, and the city constantly gets a bad rap from the NHLPA,, other than the ice, it's easy to see how Winnipeg could end up priced out of the league, with the second smallest arena, poor marketing, and empty seats.
DeepFrickinValue
Formally Ruffus
- May 14, 2015
- 5,395
- 4,362
So much has changed post pandemic. People are more content to stay at home and be thrifty rather than go out. We have lost our real life socialness.
Restaurants and night clubs face the same issues the jets do.
It’s a tale as old as 2 or 3 years ago.
Restaurants and night clubs face the same issues the jets do.
It’s a tale as old as 2 or 3 years ago.
Yukon Joe
Registered User
It's worth noting that attendance hasn't just been an issue in Winnipeg, but across Canada.
I also find it funny going through this thread that everyone has their pet issue, and that's what they immediately use to blame attendance woes on. Whether it's on-ice performance, not trading/firing the right people, concession costs, not looking after STHs, price of parking...
It seems to me that there are much wider forces at work here. I just hope the team can get through them.
I also find it funny going through this thread that everyone has their pet issue, and that's what they immediately use to blame attendance woes on. Whether it's on-ice performance, not trading/firing the right people, concession costs, not looking after STHs, price of parking...
It seems to me that there are much wider forces at work here. I just hope the team can get through them.
oldunclehue
Registered User
- Jun 16, 2010
- 1,243
- 1,353
I think from this thread you can simply look at the fact there is just an overall negativity towards the event experience. I myself live too far away to attend games regularly but I usually get to 2-3 games per year. Since COVID I have gone to one and luckily the tickets were free because I did not enjoy the experience.
I watched a game in Vegas pre-pandemic and WOW was that a blast. They really know how to do a show, and I know thats Vegas and the city is known for that....but the two weren't comparable at all.
Winnipeg should have this team for a long time, but ownership does need to think outside the box to be the reason people spend their hard earned dollars.
Also.....wonder what kind of plans they would have for a new arena when its finally needed. That downtown area isn't exactly wide open for a rink.
Don’t even think about a new rink until all 3 levels of government are willing to put up a substantial portion of the costs…. I don’t see that anytime in the distance future.
Yukon Joe
Registered User
I was finally able to go see a game in Winnipeg about five years ago. I took my kid - who proceeded to barf all over the concourse and I had to take him home before puck drop. So I've never seen a game in Winnipeg (I should clarify: Jets 2.0 - I saw 1.0 several times)
I go to a couple of Oilers games a year just when I can get tickets cheap. And I can tell you that despite being an almost brand-new building, despite having a very good team, there are times in January-February when you can hear a pin drop, and they're definitely not sell-outs either.
There's a reason the Jets are investing in upgrading the arena every summer. The last arena debate killed the team for 15 years.
As a flip side, the Flames are pretty much deliberately letting the Saddledome get run down just to increase the argument on why they need a new arena.
I believe the money they are using to upgrade the arena are tax kick backs and part of the deal to get that money? I may be off but I think that is the case (its almost free money)
- Mar 10, 2010
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- 33,180
I don't mind the meeting at the Chamber of commerce. Putting a challenge out to business to step up if they are in fact that far behind other cities is probably fair game. Talk about the benefits that it can provide to staff and key customers etc. Figure out how to drive value to the businesses that buy seats?
The add/marketing campaign they ran to the general public missed the mark as usual. At the first sign of weakness they pull out the we don't want to lose our team card is at best tone deaf given the fans and businesses just came off the COVID shit show, and now the recession, higher interest rates, inflation?
Mark needs to look in the mirror and take ownership of the softening demand. So much of it is self inflicted wounds by his failure at customer service. Its their job to fill the building and guilt and vailed threats should be a weapon of last resort.
Lets take a few possible ideas
What have they done to reach out to lapsed former season ticket holders? Have his team get a full compressive list of every former season ticket holder. Once they get that list start reaching out and talking to them one at a time but not your ticket reps. Mark himself or his most senior people (maybe Norva and Jim L) should start making calls. These are potential $70K to 100K former 10 year clients. hit the phones for a week and then have a good debrief. WHAT HAVE WE FOUND OUT.
Get to know how they failed them as key accounts. In our industry we call it service recovery. Apologize when necessary. Perhaps as a thank you for cooperation give them free tickets to a game next season with vouchers for the concessions, no strings attached just wanted to thank you for your years as a STH. Might as well weaponize those empty seats. Then after they attend that game next year reach out by email, thank them, and include a letter of changes that have been made like @blues10 mentioned. What have you got to lose. Maybe some of the folks forget how fun live NHL games actually are (I know I did this year). Apologies are a superpower.
Next up maybe look at moving on from Centre Plate. Look around the NHL for the best concession providers and options. Set your sites at being the best in the NHL at this. Can they bring it in house and use more of a blended approach where you still have your express Beer popcorn pizza outlets but then mash it up with a Forks Market model where you have other cool independent options sprinkled in too. Maybe combine that with what @blues10 was mentioning about Toronto where you could do food delivery to the seats from any of those places "in period"? How do you create a much cooler richer food experience in your facility? Even if its revenue neutral you enhance the experience. You are trying to drive sales and improve the offering so the game day is more memorable. Think of flex pricing models (like Uber)....things are cheaper on weekday games more pricy for the top tier games and weekend nights. All deliveries come with feedback loop to get guest net promoter score (like Uber).
OK any further and its TLDR.
The add/marketing campaign they ran to the general public missed the mark as usual. At the first sign of weakness they pull out the we don't want to lose our team card is at best tone deaf given the fans and businesses just came off the COVID shit show, and now the recession, higher interest rates, inflation?
Mark needs to look in the mirror and take ownership of the softening demand. So much of it is self inflicted wounds by his failure at customer service. Its their job to fill the building and guilt and vailed threats should be a weapon of last resort.
Lets take a few possible ideas
What have they done to reach out to lapsed former season ticket holders? Have his team get a full compressive list of every former season ticket holder. Once they get that list start reaching out and talking to them one at a time but not your ticket reps. Mark himself or his most senior people (maybe Norva and Jim L) should start making calls. These are potential $70K to 100K former 10 year clients. hit the phones for a week and then have a good debrief. WHAT HAVE WE FOUND OUT.
Get to know how they failed them as key accounts. In our industry we call it service recovery. Apologize when necessary. Perhaps as a thank you for cooperation give them free tickets to a game next season with vouchers for the concessions, no strings attached just wanted to thank you for your years as a STH. Might as well weaponize those empty seats. Then after they attend that game next year reach out by email, thank them, and include a letter of changes that have been made like @blues10 mentioned. What have you got to lose. Maybe some of the folks forget how fun live NHL games actually are (I know I did this year). Apologies are a superpower.
Next up maybe look at moving on from Centre Plate. Look around the NHL for the best concession providers and options. Set your sites at being the best in the NHL at this. Can they bring it in house and use more of a blended approach where you still have your express Beer popcorn pizza outlets but then mash it up with a Forks Market model where you have other cool independent options sprinkled in too. Maybe combine that with what @blues10 was mentioning about Toronto where you could do food delivery to the seats from any of those places "in period"? How do you create a much cooler richer food experience in your facility? Even if its revenue neutral you enhance the experience. You are trying to drive sales and improve the offering so the game day is more memorable. Think of flex pricing models (like Uber)....things are cheaper on weekday games more pricy for the top tier games and weekend nights. All deliveries come with feedback loop to get guest net promoter score (like Uber).
OK any further and its TLDR.
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Well said, there are people out there constantly attempting to hijack the narrative. This is a plea to the business community and I agree that more of them need to step up!
Business viability is 100% about cash flow.
Using Atlanta or the Coyotes as examples, the cash flows are so negative the asset is devalued. The Coyotes lived because they were the only tenant of a massive arena. The Thrashers died because they were the leech tenant of an arena with a NBA team as primary. Their cash flow to the overall business was negative.
The Jets have huge value because even when they are struggling there’s a solid $130-$150 million yearly revenue tied into the team of which likely $30 million plus is profit. Some of that is reinvested into the business so it remains viable.
Now would Thomson ever walk away? Perhaps if he thought he could get more profit somewhere else in terms of business. Chipman would hold onto the Jets for dear life. His actual equity pales in comparison to the yearly profit he can pull out of the hockey business and associated real estate.
When they’re hurting for season ticket holders I’m not sure why they would treat the half season ticket holders the way they did this year. We had around 8 Tuesday night games where the seats in the row directed behind us were available for $59 plus a free beer. Try selling those tickets if you can’t make a game.
Then they hit us with a 15% price increase?? I get it we don’t have a full season but is now really the time to claw back the discount? Are any of the full season ticket holders mad that we get the same discount?? I doubt it.
Did not renew my seats that I’ve had since day 1.
Then they hit us with a 15% price increase?? I get it we don’t have a full season but is now really the time to claw back the discount? Are any of the full season ticket holders mad that we get the same discount?? I doubt it.
Did not renew my seats that I’ve had since day 1.
Packofwolves
Registered User
- Nov 5, 2017
- 701
- 1,185
I moved out of Winnipeg around 10 years ago and at the time there was a lot of support for the Jets and I thought it would stick and become generational.
This was a bit of a boon for Winnipeg because people traveled to the city to see games and spend money on restaurants and maybe hotels.
What I see now though is that people have reverted back to the team they supported before the Jets returned.
I'm really interested in seeing what the rural fan support is this post season.
This was a bit of a boon for Winnipeg because people traveled to the city to see games and spend money on restaurants and maybe hotels.
What I see now though is that people have reverted back to the team they supported before the Jets returned.
I'm really interested in seeing what the rural fan support is this post season.
From some of the discussion in this thread it really looks like Joe and Jill fan are more than pulling their weight % wise when it comes to being SSH.
It is the business/corporate community that now needs to step to the plate in comparison to some other markets/business models.
It is important for the discussion that many businesses were shut out of tickets originally in 2011 if there weren’t already supporters of the Moose or the lucky bunch that got tickets within the first 15 minutes before they were gone.
From the treatment of Joe and Jill fan from TNSE from day 1 of ticket selection I always had the personal belief that TNSE would just replace us with business/corporate seat holders when the opportunity knocked. It looks like TNSE may not have planned accordingly or despite TNSEs efforts the business/corporate community isn’t interested in having season tickets.
It’s no doubt the Jets are down 3500 Joe and Jane SSH. We have come out of a pandemic and directly into high inflation. Keep in mind the Jets had been increasing tickets prices well in excess of inflation since day 1.
Anytime my better half and me have a discussion involving finances the 1st thing on the cutting block is our Jets tickets. It’s an extreme luxury. I sure could have paid down my mortgage faster.
As has been discussed at length on these boards for years was the difficulty the Jets would have in replacing those SSH that were walking away for a variety of reasons many of which were TNSEs own doing and attitude towards their SSH. It will be interesting to see how the current ticket drive works out.
It is the business/corporate community that now needs to step to the plate in comparison to some other markets/business models.
It is important for the discussion that many businesses were shut out of tickets originally in 2011 if there weren’t already supporters of the Moose or the lucky bunch that got tickets within the first 15 minutes before they were gone.
From the treatment of Joe and Jill fan from TNSE from day 1 of ticket selection I always had the personal belief that TNSE would just replace us with business/corporate seat holders when the opportunity knocked. It looks like TNSE may not have planned accordingly or despite TNSEs efforts the business/corporate community isn’t interested in having season tickets.
It’s no doubt the Jets are down 3500 Joe and Jane SSH. We have come out of a pandemic and directly into high inflation. Keep in mind the Jets had been increasing tickets prices well in excess of inflation since day 1.
Anytime my better half and me have a discussion involving finances the 1st thing on the cutting block is our Jets tickets. It’s an extreme luxury. I sure could have paid down my mortgage faster.
As has been discussed at length on these boards for years was the difficulty the Jets would have in replacing those SSH that were walking away for a variety of reasons many of which were TNSEs own doing and attitude towards their SSH. It will be interesting to see how the current ticket drive works out.
- Mar 10, 2010
- 35,402
- 33,180
Good recap of how businesses were originally shut out due to the mad rush.
I think it is also probably a bit more nuanced. As an example our business wanted to get a box initially but there weren’t any available…..Although we didn’t land on company tickets, I had 6 seats with people from work, my business partner got 6 seats, our CFO had 4 seats with family, our head of payroll had two seats. So lots of people in our head office had tickets or were part of groups. I think most business people I know had season tickets or were part of season ticket groups. I wouldn’t be shocked if a high % of the people that were at the Chamber lunch were either former season ticket holders or current. Not like the business community turned their backs I just think there were allot more in individual owners hands vs in their company name.
The challenge now is the product has lost some of the cachet so you end up with expensive inventory that is often not easy to give away and if you do give it away its not valued like it once was.
Business might need to step back up now but TNSE has to be much better, Honestly its their move. They can’t remain below average at running their premium priced business and expect fear to fill the building.
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