Ticket/Attendance Discussion: The Sequel

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

I've only been in Winnipeg a year so obviously I don't share your "underhanded marketing" opinion of the Jets, but I'm still confused by your rant.

TN already does work on attracting new fans, already does market to younger people, already does reach out to new immigrants, and already markets to a female audience. And no, not by a lame ladies' night promotion.

I have no problem criticizing TN for all the things they do wrong (like the damaging noise level in the arena) but I think you're projecting a bit here.

Please expand on "damaging noise levels in the arena."

 

[WaveRaven]

Please expand on "damaging noise levels in the arena."

Its stupid loud in there and in some seats way worse than others. I was sitting just above the penalty box glass one game and couldn't wait to get out of there. I was mad I forget ear plugs when I went a few weeks ago but it wasn't near as loud in the middle of the lower bowl in the corner.

I sure miss the days of natural sound and a shitty organ. Its super annoying to be bombarded by 1000 db announcers and music for hours.

 

[Inanna]

Please expand on "damaging noise levels in the arena."

I think the most accurate thing would be for you to look at NIH, OSHA and WHO standards for noise. There's a lot of studies out there and most conclude that office noise should not exceed 70 dBA on a long-term basis. Anything above 85 dBA is considered harmful to hearing. (Keep in mind that this is an algorithmic scale so 80 dBA is ten times louder than 70 dBA.)

Most NHL hockey arenas regularly exceed 85 dBA. To quote from the Journal of Occupational Health and Hygiene:


. Audiometric tests before and after the game were also conducted showing that the participants had a temporary threshold shift in puretone thresholds as well as a reduction in their optoacoustic emission [18]. Similar results regarding noise exposure have also been observed for various employees during hockey games in the US with peak levels varying between 105-124 dBA during the games [19]. Other studies have also shown that the noise level may differ from 81 to 96 dBA Leq and 105-124 LAFm ax depending on where in the arena the individual is positioned during the venue [19]. ...
... Similar results regarding noise exposure have also been observed for various employees during hockey games in the US with peak levels varying between 105-124 dBA during the games [19]. Other studies have also shown that the noise level may differ from 81 to 96 dBA Leq and 105-124 LAFm ax depending on where in the arena the individual is positioned during the venue [19]. The size of the crowd may also be of importance, but also the characteristics of the crowd and the game may also have an effect on the noise level [19]. ...
... Other studies have also shown that the noise level may differ from 81 to 96 dBA Leq and 105-124 LAFm ax depending on where in the arena the individual is positioned during the venue [19]. The size of the crowd may also be of importance, but also the characteristics of the crowd and the game may also have an effect on the noise level [19].


I don't know what our arena noise level is for NHL hockey but I expect it's comparable.

 

[imec]

Its stupid loud in there and in some seats way worse than others. I was sitting just above the penalty box glass one game and couldn't wait to get out of there. I was mad I forget ear plugs when I went a few weeks ago but it wasn't near as loud in the middle of the lower bowl in the corner.

I sure miss the days of natural sound and a shitty organ. Its super annoying to be bombarded by 1000 db announcers and music for hours.

Never found this to be an issue but, earplugs are cheap and if you forget them, guest services can help you out.

 

[surixon]

I think the most accurate thing would be for you to look at NIH, OSHA and WHO standards for noise. There's a lot of studies out there and most conclude that office noise should not exceed 70 dBA on a long-term basis. Anything above 85 dBA is considered harmful to hearing. (Keep in mind that this is an algorithmic scale so 80 dBA is ten times louder than 70 dBA.)

Most NHL hockey arenas regularly exceed 85 dBA. To quote from the Journal of Occupational Health and Hygiene:


. Audiometric tests before and after the game were also conducted showing that the participants had a temporary threshold shift in puretone thresholds as well as a reduction in their optoacoustic emission [18]. Similar results regarding noise exposure have also been observed for various employees during hockey games in the US with peak levels varying between 105-124 dBA during the games [19]. Other studies have also shown that the noise level may differ from 81 to 96 dBA Leq and 105-124 LAFm ax depending on where in the arena the individual is positioned during the venue [19]. ...
... Similar results regarding noise exposure have also been observed for various employees during hockey games in the US with peak levels varying between 105-124 dBA during the games [19]. Other studies have also shown that the noise level may differ from 81 to 96 dBA Leq and 105-124 LAFm ax depending on where in the arena the individual is positioned during the venue [19]. The size of the crowd may also be of importance, but also the characteristics of the crowd and the game may also have an effect on the noise level [19]. ...
... Other studies have also shown that the noise level may differ from 81 to 96 dBA Leq and 105-124 LAFm ax depending on where in the arena the individual is positioned during the venue [19]. The size of the crowd may also be of importance, but also the characteristics of the crowd and the game may also have an effect on the noise level [19].


I don't know what our arena noise level is for NHL hockey but I expect it's comparable.

I guess if you can take the dBA meter they put on the screen at face value then it often gets above 95 when trying to incite loud cheering.

The playoffs are a whole other level then that though and I remember having sore ears the day after attending games live. One of the reasons I dont often attend live music concerts.

 

[Inanna]

Never found this to be an issue but, earplugs are cheap and if you forget them, guest services can help you out.View attachment 688349

So in other words, we can give you special noise-reducing equipment to protect you against the noise that we are blasting at you at dangerous levels. Oh, and there's emergency exists...

What kind of business model is that?

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

I've only been in Winnipeg a year so obviously I don't share your "underhanded marketing" opinion of the Jets, but I'm still confused by your rant.

TN already does work on attracting new fans, already does market to younger people, already does reach out to new immigrants, and already markets to a female audience. And no, not by a lame ladies' night promotion.

I have no problem criticizing TN for all the things they do wrong (like the damaging noise level in the arena) but I think you're projecting a bit here.

Regardless of my poor promo ideas, the point is for their first major initiative in franchise history for season tix purchases, to use a passive aggressive angle aimed at tugging on our insecurities of us losing our team again, was a poor decision.

They have never had to work at selling tickets prior. Maybe try it without the underlying threat first; see if you can attract customers to pay thousands of their dollars in a recession to support the team, before pulling the "if you dont we might not have a team AGAIN!" card.

 

[Inanna]

Regardless of my poor promo ideas, the point is for their first major initiative in franchise history for season tix purchases, to use a passive aggressive angle aimed at tugging on our insecurities of us losing our team again, was a poor decision.

They have never had to work at selling tickets prior. Maybe try it without the underlying threat first; see if you can attract customers to pay thousands of their dollars in a recession to support the team, before pulling the "if you dont we might not have a team AGAIN!" card.

I haven't seen the promo or followed the discussion, but Chipman is quoted by both CBC and Free Press as saying he wasn't threatening that at all. Again, I think people's dislike of the man and/or TNSE is colouring their judgment.

 

[Hobble]

If I had to lose my hearing, having it blasted away by a cheering crowd as the Jets win the Cup is how I would want it to happen.

 

[tbcwpg]

I think the most accurate thing would be for you to look at NIH, OSHA and WHO standards for noise. There's a lot of studies out there and most conclude that office noise should not exceed 70 dBA on a long-term basis. Anything above 85 dBA is considered harmful to hearing. (Keep in mind that this is an algorithmic scale so 80 dBA is ten times louder than 70 dBA.)

Most NHL hockey arenas regularly exceed 85 dBA. To quote from the Journal of Occupational Health and Hygiene:


. Audiometric tests before and after the game were also conducted showing that the participants had a temporary threshold shift in puretone thresholds as well as a reduction in their optoacoustic emission [18]. Similar results regarding noise exposure have also been observed for various employees during hockey games in the US with peak levels varying between 105-124 dBA during the games [19]. Other studies have also shown that the noise level may differ from 81 to 96 dBA Leq and 105-124 LAFm ax depending on where in the arena the individual is positioned during the venue [19]. ...
... Similar results regarding noise exposure have also been observed for various employees during hockey games in the US with peak levels varying between 105-124 dBA during the games [19]. Other studies have also shown that the noise level may differ from 81 to 96 dBA Leq and 105-124 LAFm ax depending on where in the arena the individual is positioned during the venue [19]. The size of the crowd may also be of importance, but also the characteristics of the crowd and the game may also have an effect on the noise level [19]. ...
... Other studies have also shown that the noise level may differ from 81 to 96 dBA Leq and 105-124 LAFm ax depending on where in the arena the individual is positioned during the venue [19]. The size of the crowd may also be of importance, but also the characteristics of the crowd and the game may also have an effect on the noise level [19].


I don't know what our arena noise level is for NHL hockey but I expect it's comparable.

I found the upper deck was pretty quiet when I went to a game in December compared to what I remembered when I had season tickets.

I haven't heard anything as loud in an arena as the Minnesota Wild goal horn.

 

[Inanna]

If I had to lose my hearing, having it blasted away by a cheering crowd as the Jets win the Cup is how I would want it to happen.

Beats meningitis, I suppose.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

And I think the NHL in general needs to rethink how to allow tickets to be cheaper while maintaining and increasing profits.

Pains me to say it but the ability to stay home, watch a game on a massive screen TV, save on food and drink, save on gas and parking ect has to come a much higher cost when cable is already ridiculously high.

If the NHL can offer something more, like a VR experience, where you ware watching from the best seat in the house, and charge accordingly. Along with improving the TV content to warrant an increase in cost, they could reduce ticket prices to a point that middle to lower class families could actually afford to go.

One thing we realized during the lockdown is how bad the product looked without fans. Reduce ticket prices will fill the stands which provides a better back drop for the TV product.

I believe this will eventually be the model that gets people back in the stands and makes those that prefer to stay at home pay accordingly.

 

[imec]

So in other words, we can give you special noise-reducing equipment to protect you against the noise that we are blasting at you at dangerous levels. Oh, and there's emergency exists...

What kind of business model is that?

lol, in your words perhaps. A more reasonable take would be that TNSE recognizes that SOME individuals are unusually sensitive to "noise" and provide a service to assist with that challenge should those individuals fail to prepare for their own protection/comfort. I haven't a clue what your "emergency exit" comment refers to. Emergency exits are designated according to local building safety standards.

 

[Upperdeckjet]

If I had to lose my hearing, having it blasted away by a cheering crowd as the Jets win the Cup is how I would want it to happen.

Nah, trust me, you really don't. I will be wearing my ear plugs to preserve the hearing I do have.

 

[Inanna]

lol, in your words perhaps. A more reasonable take would be that TNSE recognizes that SOME individuals are unusually sensitive to "noise" and provide a service to assist with that challenge should those individuals fail to prepare for their own protection/comfort. I haven't a clue what your "emergency exit" comment refers to. Emergency exits are designated according to local building safety standards.

Emergency exits arises from post #529. Not my words.

If TNSE really thinks that "SOME" people are being affected by the dangerous noise being blasted at them, they really need to get their heads out of their aspirations and read a little more health and safety. As it stands right now, based on what I quoted up above, most TNSE in-rink employees are getting dangerous workplace exposure. Not my words.

I expect that most TNSE in-game noise is condoned by the NHL and encouraged by league officials.

 

[jetsv2]

Emergency exits arises from post #529. Not my words.

If TNSE really thinks that "SOME" people are being affected by the dangerous noise being blasted at them, they really need to get their heads out of their aspirations and read a little more health and safety. As it stands right now, based on what I quoted up above, most TNSE in-rink employees are getting dangerous workplace exposure. Not my words.

I expect that most TNSE in-game noise is condoned by the NHL and encouraged by league officials.

So are you saying that every concert ever from this point on should also limit noise because it exceeds safe levels for the people working at the concert?

Do you really think that is realistic?

 

[Inanna]

No, I never said that.

Check back and read my postings.

 

[imec]

Emergency exits arises from post #529. Not my words.

If TNSE really thinks that "SOME" people are being affected by the dangerous noise being blasted at them, they really need to get their heads out of their aspirations and read a little more health and safety. As it stands right now, based on what I quoted up above, most TNSE in-rink employees are getting dangerous workplace exposure. Not my words.

I expect that most TNSE in-game noise is condoned by the NHL and encouraged by league officials.

Know what else is loud? Rock concerts, fireworks, nightclubs, bowling alleys.... all places where one can choose to attend or work at - or choose, you know, not to.
Suspect danger? Wear your earplugs - stay safe.

 

[jetsv2]

No, I never said that.

Check back and read my postings.

Then your posts are pointless. There are certain events where sounds exceed what is deemed safe. If you don't want to expose yourself to such an environment then don't. But to expect changes is silly.

 

[Inanna]

Then your posts are pointless. There are certain events where sounds exceed what is deemed safe. If you don't want to expose yourself to such an environment then don't. But to expect changes is silly.

I never said I expect changes. You're projecting again.

If you go back and read, what I actually wrote was that it was foolish to criticize TNSE for not doing things they were already doing. The Fonz asked me to elaborate on my noise complaint and I provided more information to him.

If you think my posts are pointless, then please don't respond to them.

And if you jump into a conversation with "So you are saying...", please first READ what the person actually said instead of replying to something that exists only in your own head.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

I think the most accurate thing would be for you to look at NIH, OSHA and WHO standards for noise. There's a lot of studies out there and most conclude that office noise should not exceed 70 dBA on a long-term basis. Anything above 85 dBA is considered harmful to hearing. (Keep in mind that this is an algorithmic scale so 80 dBA is ten times louder than 70 dBA.)

Most NHL hockey arenas regularly exceed 85 dBA. To quote from the Journal of Occupational Health and Hygiene:


. Audiometric tests before and after the game were also conducted showing that the participants had a temporary threshold shift in puretone thresholds as well as a reduction in their optoacoustic emission [18]. Similar results regarding noise exposure have also been observed for various employees during hockey games in the US with peak levels varying between 105-124 dBA during the games [19]. Other studies have also shown that the noise level may differ from 81 to 96 dBA Leq and 105-124 LAFm ax depending on where in the arena the individual is positioned during the venue [19]. ...
... Similar results regarding noise exposure have also been observed for various employees during hockey games in the US with peak levels varying between 105-124 dBA during the games [19]. Other studies have also shown that the noise level may differ from 81 to 96 dBA Leq and 105-124 LAFm ax depending on where in the arena the individual is positioned during the venue [19]. The size of the crowd may also be of importance, but also the characteristics of the crowd and the game may also have an effect on the noise level [19]. ...
... Other studies have also shown that the noise level may differ from 81 to 96 dBA Leq and 105-124 LAFm ax depending on where in the arena the individual is positioned during the venue [19]. The size of the crowd may also be of importance, but also the characteristics of the crowd and the game may also have an effect on the noise level [19].


I don't know what our arena noise level is for NHL hockey but I expect it's comparable.

Sound pressure levels have little to do with hearing damage. Damage occurs from "noise."

Anything over .08wrms of distortion shuts down the human ear. Sound pressure levels have little to do with it. One can literally whisper in the presence of 81-96 db & still be audible to those around them, providing the signal to noise ratio isn't excessive.

Canada Life Centre has world class sound, world class components, installed by world class sound engineers.

Literally speaking, there is more cause for concern coming from crowd noise than there would ever be from their Electro-Voice rig which purrs like a kitten providing the audio source is lossless. As for crowd noise, this season for the most part has been a joke. One can hear a pin drop at most games. It's been a morgue win or lose at Canada Life Centre for a half decade now.

The problem you're experiencing could be due to reflection, depending on your seat. In an outdoor environment sound passes by you just once. Indoors is a different beast altogether. Examples of poor acoustic surfaces include glass, mirrors, smooth walls, etc. There was a reason carpeted walls were a thing in the 60's hi-fi era & it wasn't aesthetics, rather it was an attempt to avoid reflection. Canada Life Centre obviously has ice, an ultra selective surface, but the speaker arrays in pro sports arenas don't point towards that surface, rather into the seating areas. From an audio perspective, some of the best seats are the final row of the 200 section as rear reflection cannot physically be an issue. I often sit in section 212 last row right under the 212 sign. Awesome audio experience!

Those complaining of their audio experience can look at two possible sources.

1) Subwoofers. There is tremendous bottom end at Canada Life Centre. Subwoofers are the bane of anyone with a hearing aids existence. Even near inaudible low end frequency wlll play havoc with hearing aids, let alone being subjected to a few hundred thousands watts of it.

2) In game production right at the source. Not all the music being played by the production crew comes from lossless files, in fact some of their production equipment (goal songs for instance) are played from software than can only play .mp3 files. Ampliers amplify. Canada Life amplifying 192kps files to a 15,000 person crowd can easily cause the experience you describe. I notice this immediately when it occurs. Perhaps as much as a quarter of the audio content being broadcast comes from lossy files.

Takeaway from what you've read. Volume & noise don't equate to each other.

 

[Inanna]

Sound pressure levels have little to do with hearing damage. Damage occurs from "noise."

Damage also occurs from disease and injury.

I don't attend hockey games on medical advice so most of my opinions are shaped by various conversations here within the faculty. As you say, amplifiers amplify. Volume and noise are not the same, neither are mass and weight. I think that stuck in my head from grade 6.

You comments are excellent.

 

[blues10]

Nice perk for SSH to be able to buy extra to tickets to the entire ride to the Cup anywhere in the building and also single playoff games as opened up today. I just bought an extra pair of seats to game 3 in the same section as my Season Tickets. These are small perks that go along way.

 

[Gm0ney]

I haven't seen the promo or followed the discussion, but Chipman is quoted by both CBC and Free Press as saying he wasn't threatening that at all. Again, I think people's dislike of the man and/or TNSE is colouring their judgment.

To better understand the criticism of this campaign, I encourage you to watch the promo. Some people interpret it as a threat that the team will leave if the arena isn't filled. While TNSE's marketing team may have intended to evoke a sense of community spirit, the message received by many is quite different.

It's worth noting that this campaign doesn't exist in a vacuum. Over the past 12 years, TNSE's actions and words towards their season ticket holders and fans have been perceived by some as prioritizing profits over a sense of solidarity. The relationship between TNSE and fans can feel more like milking a cash cow than a genuine partnership.

Case in point:

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

Damage also occurs from disease and injury.

I don't attend hockey games on medical advice so most of my opinions are shaped by various conversations here within the faculty. As you say, amplifiers amplify. Volume and noise are not the same, neither are mass and weight. I think that stuck in my head from grade 6.

You comments are excellent.

The bolded is especially true. If audio production at Jets games is causing a problem, a trip to the doctor regarding your hearing is something to consider.