This Pittsburgh Penguins Act is Getting Old

[Luigi Lemieux]

Roster aside, how long does this team plan on keeping Sullivan as head coach?

He's the face of the franchise. Even moreso than Crosby at this point.

 

[Donnie740]

Going to play Devil's advocate here, as my favorite team (Hawks) did the same thing to a lesser extent with Seth Jones. And both organizations have had those deals (and subsequent contracts in SJ's case) - not going the way they would have liked.

You have an organization that has had unreal bounty of success over the last 10-15 years winning 3 Cups. Some of the real "core" of those teams is still around and really darn good, but now in their mid-30's aren't as dominant as they were in their prime. The organization looks at it, and understands how RARE it is to be in this position, and even if it is a long shot, they want to see if there is one more run potentially. They know that the run is unlikely - but when is going to be the next time that you have multiple future HOF'ers still playing at a high level? (Less so for the Hawks here). At that point - they make a "dangerous" trade to bring in a missing piece of what they think is a legit #1 d-man. I think that if Dubas answered truthfully he would have said the Karlsson deal works maybe 25% of the time - but that deal was the best chance for the Pens who hadn't won a play-off series in 5 years.

I look at this similarly to what Treliving has done with the "Core 4" in TOR. He knows how rare it is to have a top 3 players group as good as AM/MM/WN, so he's paying them whatever it takes to lock them up, and then trying to figure out how to build the rest of the team around that. It's probably not the way he'd prefer to go, but those are the cards he's dealt and you have to try to win with what you've got - not what you wish you had.

Dumbass was fixated on acquiring Karlsson when he was still in Toronto, even before he arrived in Pittsburgh. That’s what makes the acquisition even worse because the situation in Toronto is totally different from that in Pittsburgh.

They already had an offensive first pairing defenceman in his mid 30’s with Letang - - adding another one just like him was redundant and completely nonsensical considering the acquisition cost and the $11.5M boat anchor.

Giving away a 3rd for Reilly Smith was just more of the same stupidity. Yet another guy in his early mid 30’s with ZERO upside.

I fully understand the importance of holding onto Sid Crosby and having him retire with the franchise. I can even get with Letang and Geno being lifetime Penguins. But they should have been surrounded with guys in their early to mid 20’s rather than their early to mid 30’s.

Then it could have been a reload instead of a rebuild.

The situation could be somewhat mitigated at the deadline by dealing away everyone possible other than Crosby, Letang and Malkin. You won’t get much for hacks like Rick Reichel, Jeff Carter or the aforementioned Smith, but you also won’t be missing much without them. And I guarantee their production can be replaced by signing a FA to a one year deal in the summer. Then flip Gurntzel, Lars Eler, Graves and Rust for a better return.

Pittsburgh is clearly not a playoff calibre team now, so it’s impossible to get any worse by getting rid of all the deadwood.

Is Dumbass likely to go that? Of course not, because he’s a fantasy hockey GM not a professional hockey GM.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Dumbass was fixated on acquiring Karlsson when he was still in Toronto, even before he arrived in Pittsburgh. That’s what makes the acquisition even worse because the situation in Toronto is totally different from that in Pittsburgh.

They already had an offensive first pairing defenceman in his mid 30’s with Letang - - adding another one just like him was redundant and completely nonsensical considering the acquisition cost and the $11.5M boat anchor.

Giving away a 3rd for Reilly Smith was just more of the same stupidity. Yet another guy in his early mid 30’s with ZERO upside.

I fully understand the importance of holding onto Sid Crosby and having him retire with the franchise. I can even get with Letang and Geno being lifetime Penguins. But they should have been surrounded with guys in their early to mid 20’s rather than their early to mid 30’s.

Then it could have been a reload instead of a rebuild.

The situation could be somewhat mitigated at the deadline by dealing away everyone possible other than Crosby, Letang and Malkin. You won’t get much for hacks like Rick Reichel, Jeff Carter or the aforementioned Smith, but you also won’t be missing much without them. And I guarantee their production can be replaced by signing a FA to a one year deal in the summer. Then flip Gurntzel, Lars Eler, Graves and Rust for a better return.

Pittsburgh is clearly not a playoff calibre team now, so it’s impossible to get any worse by getting rid of all the deadwood.

Is Dumbass likely to go that? Of course not, because he’s a fantasy hockey GM not a professional hockey GM.

Donnie - you seem to have anger issues with Dubas, and I understand and can empathize with that.

Not sure how a guy who contributed to a Cup winning team last year scoring 56 points, mostly at ES, is considered to have ZERO upside. He was a solid 2nd liner last year.

The Pens were looking to compete this year. Dubas made some smart, low-cost, "depth" acquisitions to help that (Smith, Eller, Accairi) that unfortunately haven't panned out. He also added the guy who won the Norris Trophy last year without moving a ton of futures. With the benefit of hindsight - those deals didn't pay off. And I would bet that KD knew that the EK trade was a risk. But the organization wanted to throw a Hail-Mary to see if SC and crew could catch lightning in a bottle. Like most Hail-Mary, this one hasn't ended well. But to paint deals like Smith and Eller as stupid because they didn't have "upside" is disingenuous when the organization was clearly trying to take one more kick at the can.

 

[BallardEra]

Donnie - you seem to have anger issues with Dubas, and I understand and can empathize with that.

Not sure how a guy who contributed to a Cup winning team last year scoring 56 points, mostly at ES, is considered to have ZERO upside. He was a solid 2nd liner last year.

The Pens were looking to compete this year. Dubas made some smart, low-cost, "depth" acquisitions to help that (Smith, Eller, Accairi) that unfortunately haven't panned out. He also added the guy who won the Norris Trophy last year without moving a ton of futures. With the benefit of hindsight - those deals didn't pay off. And I would bet that KD knew that the EK trade was a risk. But the organization wanted to throw a Hail-Mary to see if SC and crew could catch lightning in a bottle. Like most Hail-Mary, this one hasn't ended well. But to paint deals like Smith and Eller as stupid because they didn't have "upside" is disingenuous when the organization was clearly trying to take one more kick at the can.

I agree and I think the real issue there is Mike Sullivan being way past his date of expiry.

 

[Neil Racki]

Lol .. ive read this thread title many times

I JUST NOW got the clever joke

Well done sir

 

[SEALBound]

Dumbass was fixated on acquiring Karlsson when he was still in Toronto, even before he arrived in Pittsburgh. That’s what makes the acquisition even worse because the situation in Toronto is totally different from that in Pittsburgh.

They already had an offensive first pairing defenceman in his mid 30’s with Letang - - adding another one just like him was redundant and completely nonsensical considering the acquisition cost and the $11.5M boat anchor.

Giving away a 3rd for Reilly Smith was just more of the same stupidity. Yet another guy in his early mid 30’s with ZERO upside.

I fully understand the importance of holding onto Sid Crosby and having him retire with the franchise. I can even get with Letang and Geno being lifetime Penguins. But they should have been surrounded with guys in their early to mid 20’s rather than their early to mid 30’s.

Then it could have been a reload instead of a rebuild.

The situation could be somewhat mitigated at the deadline by dealing away everyone possible other than Crosby, Letang and Malkin. You won’t get much for hacks like Rick Reichel, Jeff Carter or the aforementioned Smith, but you also won’t be missing much without them. And I guarantee their production can be replaced by signing a FA to a one year deal in the summer. Then flip Gurntzel, Lars Eler, Graves and Rust for a better return.

Pittsburgh is clearly not a playoff calibre team now, so it’s impossible to get any worse by getting rid of all the deadwood.

Is Dumbass likely to go that? Of course not, because he’s a fantasy hockey GM not a professional hockey GM.

If you're going to dunk on Dubas but use "Smith for a 3rd" and the Karlsson for crap trades as your basis, you have a big, big problem because it means your credibility is slightly above that of a jar of mayonnaise.

 

[Donnie740]

If you're going to dunk on Dubas but use "Smith for a 3rd" and the Karlsson for crap trades as your basis, you have a big, big problem because it means your credibility is slightly above that of a jar of mayonnaise.

Impossible to argue with facts, my friend.

And the cold hard fact is that Pittsburgh is significantly WORSE this year with Dumbass, Karlsson and Reilly than they were last year without them.

Do you figure all these guys in their mid to late 30’s have their best hockey ahead of them and next year it’s all going to come together for Pittsburgh?

 

[SEALBound]

Impossible to argue with facts, my friend.

And the cold hard fact is that Pittsburgh is significantly WORSE this year with Dumbass, Karlsson and Reilly than they were last year without them.

Do you figure all these guys in their mid to late 30’s have their best hockey ahead of them and next year it’s all going to come together for Pittsburgh?

Speaking of facts, why do you look up the concept of "hindsight".

I hardly think anyone looks at bringing a recent cup winning top 6 LW for the extra 3rd round pick you have or brining in the recent Norris winner who potted 101pts as "dumbass" moves at the time they were completed.

That said, neither one have been a problem. Smith's issues are 1000% with Smith and being poutty about being traded. Karlsson has been exactly who we expected him to be. So...again, if you want to dunk on him, you might want to pick on something that can actually be pointed to as dumb. Maybe the Nieto and Acciari signings? The Jarry contract? Graves? Keeping Sullivan? There are so many things Penguins fans have angst over and you pick two that are barely on our radar.

 

[Donnie740]

Speaking of facts, why do you look up the concept of "hindsight".

I hardly think anyone looks at bringing a recent cup winning top 6 LW for the extra 3rd round pick you have or brining in the recent Norris winner who potted 101pts as "dumbass" moves at the time they were completed.

That said, neither one have been a problem. Smith's issues are 1000% with Smith and being poutty about being traded. Karlsson has been exactly who we expected him to be. So...again, if you want to dunk on him, you might want to pick on something that can actually be pointed to as dumb. Maybe the Nieto and Acciari signings? The Jarry contract? Graves? Keeping Sullivan? There are so many things Penguins fans have angst over and you pick two that are barely on our radar.

You’re living in a dream world if you honestly believe Reilly Smith is a top six forward, my friend.

Last year Toronto had Nick Ritchie playing on the top line with Matthews and Marner. This year they’ve had Calle Jarncrap and Pontus Holmberg on the top line. Are any of those hacks top six forwards? Clearly no.

Signing a 4th line plugger like Matt Nieto for $900k x2 is about as irrelevant as it gets in terms of cap impact. Accari at $2M x3 is also inconsequential to the overall cap.

Graves at $4.5 x6 was a Dumbass overpay, but at least he’s only 28 and with defencemen always in demand at the deadline he could easily be flipped for a 2nd or 3rd round asset next week.

As I explained the moment he was signed, Jarry at $5.375 was a terrible overpay. But the difference with Jarry, Graves, Nieto and Accari is that it cost the Penguins ZERO draft picks or prospects to acquire.

And the combined salaries for all four of them are only costing $1M more than Karlsson’s laughable $11.5M boat anchor.

When you’ve got an old team and a system devoid of and quality prospects, you absolutely CANNOT be giving away draft picks and whatever middling prospects you do have in the system for guys in their mid 30’s with bloated contracts.

Not sure how much more I can dumb that down for anyone.

 

[SEALBound]

You’re living in a dream world if you honestly believe Reilly Smith is a top six forward, my friend.

Last year Toronto had Nick Ritchie playing on the top line with Matthews and Marner. This year they’ve had Calle Jarncrap and Pontus Holmberg on the top line. Are any of those hacks top six forwards? Clearly no.

Signing a 4th line plugger like Matt Nieto for $900k x2 is about as irrelevant as it gets in terms of cap impact. Accari at $2M x3 is also inconsequential to the overall cap.

Graves at $4.5 x6 was a Dumbass overpay, but at least he’s only 28 and with defencemen always in demand at the deadline he could easily be flipped for a 2nd or 3rd round asset next week.

As I explained the moment he was signed, Jarry at $5.375 was a terrible overpay. But the difference with Jarry, Graves, Nieto and Accari is that it cost the Penguins ZERO draft picks or prospects to acquire.

And the combined salaries for all four of them are only costing $1M more than Karlsson’s laughable $11.5M boat anchor.

When you’ve got an old team and a system devoid of and quality prospects, you absolutely CANNOT be giving away draft picks and whatever middling prospects you do have in the system for guys in their mid 30’s with bloated contracts.

Not sure how much more I can dumb that down for anyone.

What middling prospects did we give away that has you so upset you feel the need to lash out on HFB so violently?

 

[Donnie740]

What middling prospects did we give away that has you so upset you feel the need to lash out on HFB so violently?

As I explained previously, the Penguins have no A-level or even B-level prospects in their system.
They’re all middling C-level prospects - - but unfortunately, that the best that Pittsburgh has.

 

[SEALBound]

As I explained previously, the Penguins have no A-level or even B-level prospects in their system.
They’re all middling C-level prospects - - but unfortunately, that the best that Pittsburgh has.

I wouldn't call Yager, Pickering, Blomqvist, or Murashov "middling C-level prospects" but...okay.

 

[wetcoast]

I wouldn't call Yager, Pickering, Blomqvist, or Murashov "middling C-level prospects" but...okay.

Yager is a really good prospect and Pickering has tools but is a project then 2 goalies, one them a 6 foot one and then who else?

The first rounder they gave up in getting EK was a problem at the time of the trade and might become an even bigger problem if they have to punt it to the 25 draft.

The biggest problem with the Pens is games like last night where they don't even get a point.

That and the PP and the difference in the PP is that they brought in EK who was redundant.

 

[Mr Positive]

Another issue is that they can't really sell anyone. I wonder if maybe they could rent someone such as Crosby if there is an understanding that he will get traded back to the Pens in the offseason, and that cost will be hashed out by all three parties and be made public so there will be no shenanigans. Something like a 1st rounder+ or whatever.

That would depend on the Pens falling apart in the games before the deadline I suppose

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

The only thing saving Dubas from doing or making any tough decision is how f***ing inept the metro is outside of the Rangers and Hurricanes.

Flyers are in the 3rd spot and everyone knows they aren’t good.

Devils should be good but have been horrific this year.

Capitals scare no one and I would be surprised if they aren’t sellers with how bad their team looks on paper.

Penguins are just meh with their awful special teams.

It is honestly a cluster f*** of mediocrity at the moment and not one of these teams have attempted to do anything of substance in terms of trades.

Penguins have the most to gain from selling so it will be interesting to see which way they go. I am sure nothing major has happened yet because of how ugly their competition for that 3rd Metro spot has been.

 

[The Panther]

Dumbass was fixated on acquiring Karlsson when he was still in Toronto, even before he arrived in Pittsburgh. That’s what makes the acquisition even worse because the situation in Toronto is totally different from that in Pittsburgh.

They already had an offensive first pairing defenceman in his mid 30’s with Letang - - adding another one just like him was redundant and completely nonsensical considering the acquisition cost and the $11.5M boat anchor.

Giving away a 3rd for Reilly Smith was just more of the same stupidity. Yet another guy in his early mid 30’s with ZERO upside.

I fully understand the importance of holding onto Sid Crosby and having him retire with the franchise. I can even get with Letang and Geno being lifetime Penguins. But they should have been surrounded with guys in their early to mid 20’s rather than their early to mid 30’s.

Then it could have been a reload instead of a rebuild.

The situation could be somewhat mitigated at the deadline by dealing away everyone possible other than Crosby, Letang and Malkin. You won’t get much for hacks like Rick Reichel, Jeff Carter or the aforementioned Smith, but you also won’t be missing much without them. And I guarantee their production can be replaced by signing a FA to a one year deal in the summer. Then flip Gurntzel, Lars Eler, Graves and Rust for a better return.

Pittsburgh is clearly not a playoff calibre team now, so it’s impossible to get any worse by getting rid of all the deadwood.

Is Dumbass likely to go that? Of course not, because he’s a fantasy hockey GM not a professional hockey GM.

I'm just a casual follower of the Penguins, but to my way of thinking you're exactly right here.

I was quite surprised by the veteran signings last season, and then really dumbfounded when they acquired Karlsson (after signing Letang).

It seems to me the logical course of action would have been to do whatever is necessary to keep Crosby, as he's the face of the post-2000 Penguins' franchise, and I'm sure the fans would rather avoid a Jagr-thing where they see Sid in a bunch of opposition uniforms. Plus, he's still a great player who seems to still have gas in the tank. Put him in the Jean Béliveau-with-late-60s/early-70s Canadiens' role of still-being-great but also keeping the young guys in order and lending an air of class and univeral respect to the organization.

All things being equal, I think I would have tried to trade Malkin before the contract expired. Letang, I'm not sure -- maybe offer a short-term deal or whatever, and if he doesn't take it, let him walk.

Like you, I do not understand what Dubas was thinking when he went after Karlsson. It was the opposite of what the club needed. (I like Karlsson, but just a weird piece of a puzzle he doesn't fit into.)

So, the complicating factor in my idealized plan is how to keep Crosby happy. Would Sid want to stay put on a team that's clearly recycling / rebuilding? Maybe he hinted to the powers-that-be that he wouldn't do so, and maybe that's why they signed those vets. I dunno.

But anyway, they're kind of up against it now with those contracts...

 

[BallardEra]

The only thing saving Dubas from doing or making any tough decision is how f***ing inept the metro is outside of the Rangers and Hurricanes.

Flyers are in the 3rd spot and everyone knows they aren’t good.

Devils should be good but have been horrific this year.

Capitals scare no one and I would be surprised if they aren’t sellers with how bad their team looks on paper.

Penguins are just meh with their awful special teams.

It is honestly a cluster f*** of mediocrity at the moment and not one of these teams have attempted to do anything of substance in terms of trades.

Penguins have the most to gain from selling so it will be interesting to see which way they go. I am sure nothing major has happened yet because of how ugly their competition for that 3rd Metro spot has been.

This is very true and why Dubas might choose not to sell and try to go for making the playoffs.

It’s insane that the Caps are even still in the playoff hunt.

 

[Stickpucker]

You’re living in a dream world if you honestly believe Reilly Smith is a top six forward, my friend.

Last year Toronto had Nick Ritchie playing on the top line with Matthews and Marner. This year they’ve had Calle Jarncrap and Pontus Holmberg on the top line. Are any of those hacks top six forwards? Clearly no.

Signing a 4th line plugger like Matt Nieto for $900k x2 is about as irrelevant as it gets in terms of cap impact. Accari at $2M x3 is also inconsequential to the overall cap.

Graves at $4.5 x6 was a Dumbass overpay, but at least he’s only 28 and with defencemen always in demand at the deadline he could easily be flipped for a 2nd or 3rd round asset next week.

As I explained the moment he was signed, Jarry at $5.375 was a terrible overpay. But the difference with Jarry, Graves, Nieto and Accari is that it cost the Penguins ZERO draft picks or prospects to acquire.

And the combined salaries for all four of them are only costing $1M more than Karlsson’s laughable $11.5M boat anchor.

When you’ve got an old team and a system devoid of and quality prospects, you absolutely CANNOT be giving away draft picks and whatever middling prospects you do have in the system for guys in their mid 30’s with bloated contracts.

Not sure how much more I can dumb that down for anyone.

What would you do as GM of the Pens?

 

[NVious]

Heat death of the Universe.

Sulli knows God, he'll survive and be the coach of the Penguins in the next universe too.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If you're going to dunk on Dubas but use "Smith for a 3rd" and the Karlsson for crap trades as your basis, you have a big, big problem because it means your credibility is slightly above that of a jar of mayonnaise.

Oh yeah clearly that Karlsson trade is paying huge dividends right now lol. Admit it - you supported the trade because you thought Karlsson likely turns them into a playoff team.

Yet somehow adding the reigning Norris winner basically didn't improve the team at all.

Maybe his true value was misjudged.

What would you do as GM of the Pens?

Maybe stop trading away first rounder picks on a team that needs a rebuild for starters?

 

[SEALBound]

Oh yeah clearly that Karlsson trade is paying huge dividends right now lol. Admit it - you supported the trade because you thought Karlsson likely turns them into a playoff team.

Yet somehow adding the reigning Norris winner basically didn't improve the team at all.

Maybe his true value was misjudged.



Maybe stop trading away first rounder picks on a team that needs a rebuild for starters?

We all thought adding Karlsson would help, sure but what you (either knowingly or ignorantly unknowingly) forget is:

Karlsson >>> Granlund (who was a complete non-factor in Pittsburgh and did not mesh anywhere in the lineup) + Petry (who is HS territory right now) + Rutta (overpaid 3rd pairing guy). All three were mistakes by Hextall that Dubas was able to clean up.

He may not have willed the Penguins into the playoffs but he's adding a lot to the team than the other three did.

 

[ClydeLee]

We all thought adding Karlsson would help, sure but what you (either knowingly or ignorantly unknowingly) forget is:

Karlsson >>> Granlund (who was a complete non-factor in Pittsburgh and did not mesh anywhere in the lineup) + Petry (who is HS territory right now) + Rutta (overpaid 3rd pairing guy). All three were mistakes by Hextall that Dubas was able to clean up.

He may not have willed the Penguins into the playoffs but he's adding a lot to the team than the other three did.

Not everyone thought he would help. I don't think all Pittsburgh fans did either. But looking at threads I was amazed then as how many were happy and positive. There were plenty of voices around the league seeing the clear flaws of Karlsson and the team anyway to see this succeeding. Especially from other fanbases who saw declining talent.


But all the praise of the GM moves and blaming Sullivan sound like what the Kings or Blackhawks did in the last decade. It's not a lot, but you can see some Tampa people saying things against Jon Cooper now. But it's so much the talent leaving, getting older, or hurt. It's been clear even before Hextall.

It isn't hindsight being against this Karrlson trade, some blinder from fans doesn't mean you should ignore plenty of rational points were made immediately about it. The bad deals they got out of weren't worth a looking to be mid 1st round pick being lost. At 50% Granlund for a 4th would be better value than a loss of a 1st

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Not everyone thought he would help. I don't think all Pittsburgh fans did either. But looking at threads I was amazed then as how many were happy and positive. There were plenty of voices around the league seeing the clear flaws of Karlsson and the team anyway to see this succeeding. Especially from other fanbases who saw declining talent.

I for one was concerned about EK's weaknesses adding too much into the Pens weaknesses, if that makes any sense. Basically just more of the same. Look good for stretches then make a dumb mistake that kills momentum and stuff like that.

But any way you slice it, it's crazy how the #1 reason the Pens aren't in a playoff spot is their power play that is one of the worst in the league.

Like yeah, it doesn't always work out the way you want to, but there's different levels of not working out. We're ~60 games into the season and their net PP% was 10.3% coming into tonight. I'm pretty sure not a single team was that low last season at this point, maybe one of the bottom feeders, but that's it.

I don't think there is anyone who could've predicted that. It's absurd with the talent they have to put out there.

 

[dez]

3rd period collapse

 

[66-30-33]

3rd period collapse

What else is new with this team under Sullivan every year.