Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid: Flyers Rumors & Media Mentions

[deadhead]

Listen to me.

The Flyers traded Ghost (4.5 AAV), a 2, and a 7 to Phoenix for nothing.

Two days later, they traded Hagg, a 1, and 2 for Rasmus Ristolainen (5.4 AAV).

If the Flyers just kept Ghost, they would've gotten roughly the same output (actually Ghost was better probably), cheaper AAV, and all of those picks.

Let's not act like we didn't get DP'd on those deals, or that we were wrong for even feeling to the NEED to dump Ghost in the 1st place.

AV didn't want Ghost (or Voracek), it's that simple.

They should have accepted that 2019 was a "last hurrah", kept Ghost, then traded him with 50% retained the next summer, kept the picks, moved anyone over 25, etc.

Good luck getting Scott (Barber) to sign off on those moves - he was allergic to the word "rebuild."
It wasn't until Torts came out and stated the team was 4-5 years away that the FO finally started considering the obvious, and even then, they wouldn't fire CF until after the JVR fiasco.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

You’re ultimately not a good organization if you let one draft pick completely ruin your entire franchise. Boston probably had one of the biggest draft blunder(s) of all time no hindsight even required in 2015 & it hasn’t stopped them from going on to being one of the better teams in hockey since that time.

Their biggest mistake was putting all their eggs into one draft pick regardless of who the player was or what his draft profile looked like.

 

[freakydallas13]

This thread is the way back machine of horrors.

Eagerly awaiting for when McCagg's name gets brought up again.

 

[deadhead]

Speak for yourself, some of us said the return seemed mid at best when you consider they also took Peterson's cap dump.

Different strokes for different folks.

I'm happy with a 1st, (2) 2nds, Grans, Walker (more picks) for a 2nd pair D-man (albeit a minutes eater) and a salary dump (who was a veteran goaltender when they probably knew Hart was toast).

Provorov is playing in CBJ pretty much the same as he was here the last three seasons, a 2nd pair quality D-man playing first pair minutes on a bad team. Same at 5x5, same on PP2, same or worse on the PK. His minutes have declined slightly to 22:40 a night.

Straight up, with that contract, I doubt he'd be worth more than a late 1st rd pick.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

AV didn't want Ghost (or Voracek), it's that simple.

They should have accepted that 2019 was a "last hurrah", kept Ghost, then traded him with 50% retained the next summer, kept the picks, moved anyone over 25, etc.

Good luck getting Scott (Barber) to sign off on those moves - he was allergic to the word "rebuild."
It wasn't until Torts came out and stated the team was 4-5 years away that the FO finally started considering the obvious, and even then, they wouldn't fire CF until after the JVR fiasco.

Do you work for the Flyers by chance?

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Different strokes for different folks.

I'm happy with a 1st, (2) 2nds, Grans, Walker (more picks) for a 2nd pair D-man (albeit a minutes eater) and a salary dump (who was a veteran goaltender when they probably knew Hart was toast).

Provorov is playing in CBJ pretty much the same as he was here the last three seasons, a 2nd pair quality D-man playing first pair minutes on a bad team. Same at 5x5, same on PP2, same or worse on the PK. His minutes have declined slightly to 22:40 a night.

Straight up, with that contract, I doubt he'd be worth more than a late 1st rd pick.

So that's how you justify it? A vet goalie who is not NHL caliber. So that is who they targeted as Hart was toast.

I break it down like this:
1st, 2nd, Walker (who was a 100% cap dump at the time) for Provorov

2nd, Hans - for taking Cal

Not a great haul and one can argue not enough just as one can say it is a solid deal.

 

[Curufinwe]

Walker wasn't a cap dump. He was 3rd pairing dman making a reasonable $2.65m for one more year. Jori Lehtera was a cap dump.

Let's not act like we didn't get DP'd on those deals,

In light of certain events involving a soon to be former Flyer, maybe we should retire these types of phrases when it comes to things like hockey trades.

 

[Beef Invictus]

How about the arrogance of ignoring that both Meltzer & San Filippo reported that Hextall overruled his scouts to take Patrick, separate from Clarke acknowledging as much on a podcast.

ASF’s report came from connections with the scouting staff, not Clarke. Another league source confirmed what Clarke said, except he said it was Heiskanen, not Makar.

That isn't what was reported, though.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It was. AV didn't want Ghost on the team, Flyers were cap strapped due to COVID (every team had planned on a rising cap when giving out contracts the previous 2-3 seasons), and the mandate from the FO was to win now.

It cost more to dump one year of Stralman than two years of Ghost.

Ghost has been a 3rd pair D-man on every good team he's been on since that trade, being 1st pair on Arizona was no different than AMac being first pair on the Islanders when we traded for him.

The real issue was Holmgren refusing to hire a new GM to replace Hextall and reboot the rebuild in the summer of 2019 after Hextall failed. Instead he hired someone to patch the team into the playoffs.

It has never been "market value" to dump a good dman who had been 1st/2nd pair for his career on an appropriate contract while paying to do so.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Anyway, like I was saying, how could Russ Farwell have not convinced Jagr to play for the Flyers??? Sheer incompetence!

It is very good and positive that Jagr did not play here. He gambles. Gambling is degenerate and he would have been a bad influence.


Please note that when he did play here, his gambling was a positive because he could teach guys the best ways to avoid doing it wrong. Excellent influence.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Walker was a cap dump as LA had trim salary. If not a cap dump why didn't they trade him on his own for a pick/prospect back in return?

 

[deadhead]

You’re ultimately not a good organization if you let one draft pick completely ruin your entire franchise. Boston probably had one of the biggest draft blunder(s) of all time no hindsight even required in 2015 & it hasn’t stopped them from going on to being one of the better teams in hockey since that time.

Their biggest mistake was putting all their eggs into one draft pick regardless of who the player was or what his draft profile looked like.

Before that, they gave away Wheeler and Seguin for peanuts and still had two decades of excellence.

Seguin, traded for Loui Eriksson (28), Matt Fraser, Joseph Morrow, and Reilly Smith (who they flipped two years later for Jimmy Hayes).

Wheeler, traded for Rich Peverley and Boris Valabik

 

[Curufinwe]

Petersen, an AHL goalie making 2 x $5m, was the cap dump. Walker was part of the value the Flyers got back for taking Petersen.

 

[deadhead]

Walker was a cap dump as LA had trim salary. If not a cap dump why didn't they trade him on his own for a pick/prospect back in return?

B/c he was a 3rd pair D-man coming back from an ACL with a $2.65M cap hit.
What do you think they could have got for him without retaining money?

 

[blackjackmulligan]

B/c he was a 3rd pair D-man coming back from an ACL with a $2.65M cap hit.
What do you think they could have got for him without retaining money?

Hence he was a cap dump that the Flyers took back. Nothing wrong with that as at worst they probably get back a mid rd pick was their thought process. I hope it was at least. He has exceeded that mid rd pick area.

 

[bennysflyers16]

I find it very hard to believe there was enough votes in that front office & scouting department for a player like Makar’s draft profile that high in the draft. Right or wrong a lot of those underlyings worked under Homer & even continued to work under Fletcher. Their MO generally taking what they deemed the safer profile right or wrong. They generally don’t/didn’t bet on pure skill, to further it with Makar you had someone who built their draft stock just that year not even playing in the highest Jr. A league in Canada.

Heiskanen I can believe there was more of a debate at that time.

There isn't a person on the planet that wanted a Junior A guy to be picked 2nd overall, and that includes his parents.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

There isn't a person on the planet that wanted a Junior A guy to be picked 2nd overall, and that includes his parents.

Yeah I remember the talk being that Heiskanen was a possible pick there but I don't even remember seeing Cale Makar's name in any draft threads on this board about Makar as the possible pick at 2. Hesikanen, yes. Makar, no.

The problem isn't whether or not there were scouts saying no to Patrick. I could definitely believe there as dissent among the ranks about whether or not to go Patrick or Heiskanen. We'll likely never know the answer to this for sure or any of these circumstances, but I'd be willing to bet in nearly every draft at every position that it isn't a consensus pick. The GM or whomever is actually making the final call will likely have to overrule certain scouts. For 2017, the truth probably lies somewhere in between. Saying Patrick wasn't the consensus but Hextall went with him, I 100% believe. Saying Makar or Heiskanen was the consensus (or even the consensus was either of them just not Patrick) and Hextall overruled everyone and picked Patrick I find a lot less likely.

 

[bennysflyers16]

Yeah I remember the talk being that Heiskanen was a possible pick there but I don't even remember seeing Cale Makar's name in any draft threads on this board about Makar as the possible pick at 2. Hesikanen, yes. Makar, no.

The problem isn't whether or not there were scouts saying no to Patrick. I could definitely believe there as dissent among the ranks about whether or not to go Patrick or Heiskanen. We'll likely never know the answer to this for sure or any of these circumstances, but I'd be willing to bet in nearly every draft at every position that it isn't a consensus pick. The GM or whomever is actually making the final call will likely have to overrule certain scouts. For 2017, the truth probably lies somewhere in between. Saying Patrick wasn't the consensus but Hextall went with him, I 100% believe. Saying Makar or Heiskanen was the consensus (or even the consensus was either of them just not Patrick) and Hextall overruled everyone and picked Patrick I find a lot less likely.

There was enough Heiskanen talk that I remember being happy when they picked NP. I actually remember fist pumping. ( Same with Provy )

And for sure there were scouts that didn't want NP as there was always smoke around the Winnipeg area how little the kid cared about hockey,

But this is almost all in hindsight.

 

[deadhead]

It has never been "market value" to dump a good dman who had been 1st/2nd pair for his career on an appropriate contract while paying to do so.

"Market value" is what the market pays.

Ghost was not a 1st and 2nd pair D-man at that point, he played that role in Arizona b/c the other D-men were injured or worse, he's been a 3rd D-man in Carolina and Detroit (15:09 at ES, 5th on the team, 11 seconds a game more than Maatta).

Hence he was a cap dump that the Flyers took back. Nothing wrong with that as at worst they probably get back a mid rd pick was their thought process. I hope it was at least. He has exceeded that mid rd pick area.

He was a cap dump in the sense that LA retained on Provorov to make him palatable to CBJ, then the Flyers took Walker to match that retention. From the Flyer perspective, he was a no cost addition since he allowed them to dump Provorov's contract and preserve the retention slot.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

I find it very hard to believe there was enough votes in that front office & scouting department for a player like Makar’s draft profile that high in the draft. Right or wrong a lot of those underlyings worked under Homer & even continued to work under Fletcher. Their MO generally taking what they deemed the safer profile right or wrong. They generally don’t/didn’t bet on pure skill, to further it with Makar you had someone who built their draft stock just that year not even playing in the highest Jr. A league in Canada.

Heiskanen I can believe there was more of a debate at that time.

All we have to look at here is that the Heiskanen talk came out when the Stars were in the SCF and it switched to Makar talk when he was lighting the league on fire.

Now all of this was happening with a new front office staff (with the same scouts) that had no ties to Patrick who at that point was never going to play another game for the Flyers.

I wonder who this being out there benefits?

Shocking stuff really.

 

[deadhead]

Clarke, Barber and Holmgren all share equally in the blame.
Hextall tried to defy them, but as he showed with the Pens, he was no better.

I don't know if Torts/Briere/Jones will be better, but they'd struggle to be worse.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Clarke, Barber and Holmgren all share equally in the blame.
Hextall tried to defy them, but as he showed with the Pens, he was no better.

I don't know if Torts/Briere/Jones will be better, but they'd struggle to be worse.

Torts/Briere/Jones: Hold my beer. Watch this.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Clarke, Barber and Holmgren all share equally in the blame.
Hextall tried to defy them, but as he showed with the Pens, he was no better.

I don't know if Torts/Briere/Jones will be better, but they'd struggle to be worse.

Blame for what exactly?

 

[deadhead]

Blame for what exactly?

A decade of mediocrity.

Holmgren blew two chances to rebuild properly, once after the Carter/Richards trades, once after 2018-19. Instead he hired CF and told him to "win now."
Hextall started a rebuild at the 2015 TDL, then stalled, then traded Schenn in the summer of 2017, then stalled, then got fired.
Barber was Scott's chief advisor.
Clarke was the puppet master.

 

[Larry44]

There isn't a person on the planet that wanted a Junior A guy to be picked 2nd overall, and that includes his parents.

This is it. I get there were Heiskanen advocates among the scouts, understandably, but Patrick was the right pick. Just what they need now, actually: a big RHS C with offensive talent and plays a two-way game. It's really a shame his early season concussions in both the first two years weren't taken more seriously and I really wish he hadn't tried to block that shot with the back of his head. He was actually looking pretty good in his comeback with Vegas until the dirty douchebag McKinnon hit with him with a cheapshot and finished him.