Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid: Flyers Rumors & Media Mentions

[blackjackmulligan]

You keep saying this draft isn't good, have you even watched any prospects? There are some damn good players, demidov is who I want, but you keep saying this as if it's a terrible draft, it's not


Possible, but Kaplan is gonna be a solid piece, he's got the tools, and plays very smart, I'd be shocked if he's any less than a top 9 guy

I like Kaplan a lot and have said before he will be an NHL player imo. Liked that pick. Where he slots is the debate. Funny has seen him play since pee wee hockey.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

Ive never said it was a terrible draft, I've absolutely suggested the top 3 in 2024 isnt full of generational talent like 2023 and theres probably not a bonafide 1C or 1D like other drafts. But ive also said its loaded with defense prospects and theres more than a handful of players Ive mentioned by name that are worth getting excited about. Tanking for Demidov is just not a good idea.


ya its def possible they do 4 years, wade allison did

The way you're wording it is suggesting this draft is full of scrubs lol thats just not the case, there isn't generational talents in every draft, actually you get one like every 8 years or so, but there are definitely number 1 centers in this draft, and some really good defensemen, not sure if any #1d is out there but #2 for sure

 

[tnfrs]

The way you're wording it is suggesting this draft is full of scrubs lol thats just not the case, there isn't generational talents in every draft, actually you get one like every 8 years or so, but there are definitely number 1 centers in this draft, and some really good defensemen, not sure if any #1d is out there but #2 for sure

No youre just interpreting it that way because Im not as excited about 2024 as you are. Ive never said anything about anyone being a scrub. Im not expecting a generational talent every year. But you dont tank for someone whos not generational, thats like tanking for Nolan Patrick. Celerini might be a number 1 center, or he might be a number 2, If Columbus were to draft him, Celebrini is behind Fantili. If we draft him he's number 1, but Michkov clears when he gets here if hes a center so, sometimes maybe yes sometimes maybe no. Same with Catton. Those are two of the more recognizable centers in this draft, and I would be stoked to get either of them, but theyre not worth tanking for. Demidov is gonna drop a bit for the same reason Michkov did and if we want him bad enough we can probably trade a package to move up alot easier in 2024, because theres no generational talent.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

No youre just interpreting it that way because Im not as excited about 2024 as you are. Ive never said anything about anyone being a scrub. Im not expecting a generational talent every year. But you dont tank for someone whos not generational, thats like tanking for Nolan Patrick. Celerini might be a number 1 center, or he might be a number 2, If Columbus were to draft him, Celebrini is behind Fantili. If we draft him he's number 1, but Michkov clears when he gets here if hes a center so, sometimes maybe yes sometimes maybe no. Same with Catton. Those are two of the more recognizable centers in this draft, and I would be stoked to get either of them, but theyre not worth tanking for. Demidov is gonna drop a bit for the same reason Michkov did and if we want him bad enough we can probably trade a package to move up alot easier in 2024, because theres no generational talent.

Teams can have multiple players that are considered a 1c though, but maybe I am interpretating it the wrong way, and I'm not coming at you or trying to be an asshole by saying what I said, I'm just saying now is the time for us to be bad, not saying throw games or anything, but the only chance we have of becoming successful is drafting high and getting high end talent, even if they aren't generational, we are no longer a hot destination for free agents so buying our way out of it will not work like it did in 06-07 I believe it was with briere, Hartnell, and kimmo

 

[tnfrs]

Teams can have multiple players that are considered a 1c though, but maybe I am interpretating it the wrong way, and I'm not coming at you or trying to be an asshole by saying what I said, I'm just saying now is the time for us to be bad, not saying throw games or anything, but the only chance we have of becoming successful is drafting high and getting high end talent, even if they aren't generational, we are no longer a hot destination for free agents so buying our way out of it will not work like it did in 06-07 I believe it was with briere, Hartnell, and kimmo

We're still not going to be a hot destination if we abandon rosters full of players to maybe draft someone that maybe is a 1cB, possibly a 1C but still a tier below the 2023 top 5. We still have players on the roster that can be part of our middle 6 and we still need to see what some of them can do, Tippett Frost and Cates only have 1 year of NHL experience theyre either better this year or theyre not. If they are, amazing. 1 less player we have to replace. If they have not improved we can move them this year and still finish in the bottom. We can still finish in the bottom if everyone has a great year, Im not suggesting we're a good team we have way too many holes on defense. Im just saying its not worth selling everybody at bottom barrel prices for a 25% chance to draft Celebrini.

 

[Curufinwe]

Tippet has played 192 games and Frost has played 158.

 

[tnfrs]

Tippet has played 192 games and Frost has played 158.

still only 1 full season of 82 games. Tippett was buried behind a good florida lineup and Frost lost a season to injury. Covid set alot of prospects back too even if they didnt catch it they probably all didnt have access to the same training. 2023 was their first full year playing an NHL shedule with no major interruptions.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

We're still not going to be a hot destination if we abandon rosters full of players to maybe draft someone that maybe is a 1cB, possibly a 1C but still a tier below the 2023 top 5. We still have players on the roster that can be part of our middle 6 and we still need to see what some of them can do, Tippett Frost and Cates only have 1 year of NHL experience theyre either better this year or theyre not. If they are, amazing. 1 less player we have to replace. If they have not improved we can move them this year and still finish in the bottom. We can still finish in the bottom if everyone has a great year, Im not suggesting we're a good team we have way too many holes on defense. Im just saying its not worth selling everybody at bottom barrel prices for a 25% chance to draft Celebrini.

I'm not in the sell every one camp, I am in the sell off the big trade pieces for good returns camp however

 

[JojoTheWhale]

*handwave* Just trade up.

It’s willfully obtuse at this point given how much dissection of that as a concept there was this summer. It doesn’t happen.

 

[tnfrs]

*handwave* Just trade up.

It’s willfully obtuse at this point given how much dissection of that as a concept there was this summer. It doesn’t happen.

it doesnt happen in generational drafts but it didnt stop danny from trying, and Im not saying its what will happen this year, im not banking on it, and Im not setting my hopes on getting a bottom 5 pick this year. im gonna watch every game looking for players to improve and getting exciting when it happens. Im not gonna be bothered if we win too many games to pick in the top 5, and it wont matter to me if we dont trade up to get demidov. i keep saying we have rosters spots open for prospects next year, we have 10+ prospects in the organization that could maybe fill out the bottom 6 and 2 players already that could be our 1st line in a couple years. We need to iron out some out of middle 6 players this year so not everybody is staying. We are better positioned to bottom out next year than this year as long as we dont sign any outside free agents. Dannys not done with the rebuild.

 

[Beef Invictus]

you are as consistent as dead. Cant recover because they were never that good.


kaplan and Knuble will be 4 year college guys imo. Unless they somehow take huge steps and breakout.

Yes, they aren't that good. That's the problem. Unless a player is too good to fail completely, the Flyers will break them. This team is completely dreadful at developing depth in-house. Players who are going to top out in the bottom six or middle six at best need all the help they can get, and teaching them the worst ways to play hockey maximizes the chances of failure since they aren't gonna be able to get by on raw skill alone, and they're going to be doing wrong things at team direction. Taking the prospect classes the Flyers had and getting so little out of them is a massive red flag, which happens to line up perfectly with all the red flags visible even to observers in their development processes and thinking.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Yes, they aren't that good. That's the problem. Unless a player is too good to fail completely, the Flyers will break them. This team is completely dreadful at developing depth in-house. Players who are going to top out in the bottom six or middle six at best need all the help they can get, and teaching them the worst ways to play hockey maximizes the chances of failure since they aren't gonna be able to get by on raw skill alone, and they're going to be doing wrong things at team direction. Taking the prospect classes the Flyers had and getting so little out of them is a massive red flag, which happens to line up perfectly with all the red flags visible even to observers in their development processes and thinking.

I don't disagree. Chuck failed badly by not moving some and by not developing some.

They have new developmental peeps in place so we shall see. Keeping Lappy was a mistake. Needed a sweeping change at that level as well.

 

[renberg]

I don't disagree. Chuck failed badly by not moving some and by not developing some.

They have new developmental peeps in place so we shall see. Keeping Lappy was a mistake. Needed a sweeping change at that level as well.

It may be that Briere has moved away from Fletcher/Flahr's philosophy of drafting size and strength instead of speed and skill. Only time will tell. If they have, they need either to re-educate their scouts as to what they should be looking for in prospects or just bringing in new scouts who embrace and understand that. The rebuild starts there. From there the developmental people need to follow suit and up the chain it should go.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

*handwave* Just trade up.

It’s willfully obtuse at this point given how much dissection of that as a concept there was this summer. It doesn’t happen.

It’s just an unlikely proposition in today’s hard salary cap world.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I don't disagree. Chuck failed badly by not moving some and by not developing some.

They have new developmental peeps in place so we shall see. Keeping Lappy was a mistake. Needed a sweeping change at that level as well.

As an aside, one guy I think I can absolve all coaches of blame for is Ristolainen; nobody can fix him, and that's all on management for thinking he was worth having. When I think of othersport comparisons for him, Jason Campbell and Rex Grossman leap to mind. All three are guys who survived at the top level longer than they should have based almost entirely on attractive skillsets. But they'd all do constant dumb ass stuff that I am certain they've been told not to do their whole lives. And yet they keep doing the stuff. There comes a time when it is clear guys like that aren't going to be absorbing whatever lessons are needed to mitigate their mistakes.

It's also interesting that all three were coveted only by badly managed teams easily swayed by flashy traits with zero substance.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It may be that Briere has moved away from Fletcher/Flahr's philosophy of drafting size and strength instead of speed and skill. Only time will tell. If they have, they need either to re-educate their scouts as to what they should be looking for in prospects or just bringing in new scouts who embrace and understand that. The rebuild starts there. From there the developmental people need to follow suit and up the chain it should go.

Unfortunately, Flahr is Briere's boss and he was making picks. Hard to run a rebuild when half a draft is wasted by The Natural Manboy

 

[tnfrs]

It’s just an unlikely proposition in today’s hard salary cap world.

thats what makes it equally unlikely any team can unload more than a handful of bad contracts in a given year too, so its important to see what happens over the season and re-evaluate at each step

 

[blackjackmulligan]

As an aside, one guy I think I can absolve all coaches of blame for is Ristolainen; nobody can fix him, and that's all on management for thinking he was worth having. When I think of othersport comparisons for him, Jason Campbell and Rex Grossman leap to mind. All three are guys who survived at the top level longer than they should have based almost entirely on attractive skillsets. But they'd all do constant dumb ass stuff that I am certain they've been told not to do their whole lives. And yet they keep doing the stuff. There comes a time when it is clear guys like that aren't going to be absorbing whatever lessons are needed to mitigate their mistakes.

It's also interesting that all three were coveted only by badly managed teams easily swayed by flashy traits with zero substance.

Risto started out ok in Buffalo. then just imo fell completely off. I want to know is when/why he became known as this big "physical" dman. That description of him is way off to me. He had good offensive skills. Then just abandoned them it seems.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

It may be that Briere has moved away from Fletcher/Flahr's philosophy of drafting size and strength instead of speed and skill. Only time will tell. If they have, they need either to re-educate their scouts as to what they should be looking for in prospects or just bringing in new scouts who embrace and understand that. The rebuild starts there. From there the developmental people need to follow suit and up the chain it should go.

That would have been my course of action.

Is it possible him being so new to management in general and maybe not having a lot of knowledge in that area (or knowing who to hire) he has kept the status quo for now?

This is why having a president with knowledge could have helped.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

thats what makes it equally unlikely any team can unload more than a handful of bad contracts in a given year too, so its important to see what happens over the season and re-evaluate at each step

They did unload everyone they didn’t want sans Sanheim though.

 

[tnfrs]

They did unload everyone they didn’t want sans Sanheim though.

so not quite the full handful. a flat cap wasnt helpful. but theres still time.

 

[deadhead]

It may be that Briere has moved away from Fletcher/Flahr's philosophy of drafting size and strength instead of speed and skill. Only time will tell. If they have, they need either to re-educate their scouts as to what they should be looking for in prospects or just bringing in new scouts who embrace and understand that. The rebuild starts there. From there the developmental people need to follow suit and up the chain it should go.

Say what? That was Holgmren/Hextall's MO.

Fletcher/Flahr drafted York, Brink, Andrae, Tuomaala in the first two rounds.
And the big players they drafted early were all skilled players, Foerster, Gauthier, Kaplan, even Attard.
If they had one imbalance, it was probably shooters over playmakers, but they didn't draft big players who can't play.

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

Because if we're shit this year, or next year, TK can still be moved. And if we've improved enough and turned things around maybe he resigns for a sweetheart deal. Maybe hes not with us when we win a stanley cup. remember before chicago won their first cup they had havlat and the next year they had hossa and won. TK is someone that will have value down the line when we're looking to add those last pieces. If Tippet shits the bed this year, he can be moved hes an RFA, but TK we know will still have value for a few years. All of this depends how much we've improved.

and i dont mean improved as a team, thats not the goal, we just dont have the defense and we're missing a legitimate top line, but the top line is coming soon, the defense can be built up slowly, so if the forwards prove they wanna win here and have a good start and everyones flying all year then thats improvement. it wont take long to see whos committed and whos put the work in this off season.

If we're shit this year? I think that's a given, and I'm good with that. It's why, as much as I love him, I want to trade TK. You pick up some nice assets, and also increase your chances of a higher pick next year. It's not about tanking for a specific player. Just maximizing your chances to get top end talent (this includes picking up more firsts, not hoping for one miracle player)

Nobody is advocating for trading guys for shit returns either. If the offers aren't there so be it. But I don't want to hang on to valuable trade assets because the org thinks they'll have things turned around in 3 years. They've given me no reason to trust them to do that. Anybody who doesn't fit the Michkov timeline is expendable

 

[Beef Invictus]

Say what? That was Holgmren/Hextall's MO.

Fletcher/Flahr drafted York, Brink, Andrae, Tuomaala in the first two rounds.
And the big players they drafted early were all skilled players, Foerster, Gauthier, Kaplan, even Attard.
If they had one imbalance, it was probably shooters over playmakers, but they didn't draft big players who can't play.

Hextall and Holmgren did not draft size for its own sake like Flahr does. There needed to be other traits.

 

[Asnito]

*handwave* Just trade up.

It’s willfully obtuse at this point given how much dissection of that as a concept there was this summer. It doesn’t happen.