Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid: Flyers Rumors & Media Mentions

[renberg]

Literally any rebuilding strategy can fail because of luck, it doesn't change the fact that the most consistent way to become a contender is to draft elite talent at the top of the draft.

True but relying on tanking to get the top pick isn’t worth the failure. Chicago lucked out last year to suck that badly and still nab Bedard. Time will tell if Bedard won’t end up being JVR to Michkov’s Kane.

 

[freakydallas13]

True but relying on tanking to get the top pick isn’t worth the failure. Chicago lucked out last year to suck that badly and still nab Bedard. Time will tell if Bedard won’t end up being JVR to Michkov’s Kane.

By "top of the draft", I mean the top ~5 spots in the draft, something that is easily achievable for even unlucky teams that are "tanking". You spend 5 years doing this and a competent team likely has a core to build around they could contend with.

Can you do it another way like drafting 10-20 every year and building up depth and shrewdly adding FAs and making trades? Sure. But for every Carolina that tries and accomplishes this, there is a Minnesota/Winnipeg/Nashville/Calgary that tries and is eternally mediocre.

Which brings me back to my original point: what you refer to as "tanking" is the easiest and most consistent way to build a contender.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Everyone knows tanking alone isnt the whole battle and that you have to follow it with competence to make anything of it.

 

[tnfrs]

By "top of the draft", I mean the top ~5 spots in the draft, something that is easily achievable for even unlucky teams that are "tanking". You spend 5 years doing this and a competent team likely has a core to build around they could contend with.

Can you do it another way like drafting 10-20 every year and building up depth and shrewdly adding FAs and making trades? Sure. But for every Carolina that tries and accomplishes this, there is a Minnesota/Winnipeg/Nashville/Calgary that tries and is eternally mediocre.

Which brings me back to my original point: what you refer to as "tanking" is the easiest and most consistent way to build a contender.

Its entirely possible that the idea was to tank when Danny was hired but getting Michkov at 7 gives us a far more talented player than anyone in the next 2 drafts so theyve switched gears and now want to see what the current roster is capable of with the right leadership. I dont think they expect to make the playoffs, but showing confidence in the the young guys now might be a good thing for their development. We already have players that can absolutely be part of a middle 6 on a contender and maybe not everyone agrees on who those players are right now but this year is about figuring that out, and thats far more valuable than a 25% chance to draft first overall. Maybe the team just isnt making it obvious we're tanking so the players can still have some dignity while they grow into their roles. Its hard enough seeing the fanbase scream for them to be losers, I dont blame the front office for slow burning the rebuild in the beginning.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Connor Bedard’s draft profile is considerably better than JvR’s. Hell it’s even better than Kane’s. Sure we can say anything can happen (just as that can be applied to Michkov or anything prospect) but Bedard would be a real statistical outlier if he isn’t a superstar in the coming years.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Ultimately there is no right way or wrong way to rebuild (other than obviously wrong things like you can't rebuild by trading away your draft picks for aging vets, etc.). But in an actual rebuild you just have to be consistent and be lucky. Tanking alone doesn't do it. Hoarding draft picks alone doesn't do it. You need to suck and you need to suck at the right time AND you need to get lucky lottery ball bounces while at the same time praying that the guys you get are worth the high draft pick.

Sometimes you get lucky and STILL can't put it together like Edmonton. Sometimes you suck but at the wrong time like when JvR was our prize or Patrik Stefan to Atlanta. Sometimes you get a guy that might be the guy...but then has career ending or altering injuries like Lindros or Patrick. Sometimes you suck at exactly the right time and get two of the best players of all time and a franchise goalie, and hit on a franchise defenseman unexpectedly in the third round like the Pens. The common thread with most teams that have won championships recently is extended periods of pitiful hockey.

Teams can and do f*** up rebuilds, and it would incredibly on-brand for the Flyers to do that, but you can't really judge a rebuild in the first offseason of what is likely to be 5ish years. They're going to suck for a long time and we just have to hope it is at the right time. People are going to complain either way. Guaranteed if Michkov doesn't come to the US the narrative will be how stupid the Flyers are, six teams passed on him and everyone knew there were concerns about coming here from Russia especially when Fedotov was already sent to the army when he signed here and blah blah blah.

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

Its entirely possible that the idea was to tank when Danny was hired but getting Michkov at 7 gives us a far more talented player than anyone in the next 2 drafts so theyve switched gears and now want to see what the current roster is capable of with the right leadership. I dont think they expect to make the playoffs, but showing confidence in the the young guys now might be a good thing for their development. We already have players that can absolutely be part of a middle 6 on a contender and maybe not everyone agrees on who those players are right now but this year is about figuring that out, and thats far more valuable than a 25% chance to draft first overall. Maybe the team just isnt making it obvious we're tanking so the players can still have some dignity while they grow into their roles. Its hard enough seeing the fanbase scream for them to be losers, I dont blame the front office for slow burning the rebuild in the beginning.

Do you think it was too soon to draft a Michkov?

 

[tnfrs]

Do you think it was too soon to draft a Michkov?

I actually think its kind of perfect, I said in another thread that this forward group isnt bad if all the young guys have improved, and then youre already adding cutter gauthier next year. so that gives them a few years to iron out the defence. if nobody has improved this year you can still fire sale in seaosns when the cap goes up, but you still have michkov coming. so you might as well see what you have now. Maybe foerster is good enough that you can trade tk and tippett. Maybe nobody improves, but theres still time before Michkov gets here to tank, and in 2025 theres lots of spots opening already so its not going to be hard to lean into a full tear down. If were so bad that tanking becomes an option we can get enormous value for Tippett TK and Hart alone. I just think its important to be patient and Im realizing theres still reasons this team can succeed

edit, just to add if we traded everyone on the current roster we can still start brand spanking new with Cutter Gauthier, Matvei Michkov, Tyson Foerster, Cam York, Oliver Bonk, Alexsei Kolosov, and two other very promising goalie prospects, all 22yrs or under

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

I actually think its kind of perfect, I said in another thread that this forward group isnt bad if all the young guys have improved, and then youre already adding cutter gauthier next year. so that gives them a few years to iron out the defence. if nobody has improved this year you can still fire sale in seaosns when the cap goes up, but you still have michkov coming. so you might as well see what you have now. Maybe foerster is good enough that you can trade tk and tippett. Maybe nobody improves, but theres still time before Michkov gets here to tank, and in 2025 theres lots of spots opening already so its not going to be hard to lean into a full tear down. If were so bad that tanking becomes an option we can get enormous value for Tippett TK and Hart alone. I just think its important to be patient and Im realizing theres still reasons this team can succeed

edit, just to add if we traded everyone on the current roster we can still start brand spanking new with Cutter Gauthier, Matvei Michkov, Tyson Foerster, Cam York, Oliver Bonk, Alexsei Kolosov, and two other very promising goalie prospects, all 22yrs or under

Appreciate the response. You are much more optimistic than I am when you say the forward group isn't bad if all the young guys improved. I'd like this team to aim higher than "not bad and hard work will solve the rest". Also, that's a lot of ifs.

The too soon thing was a joke, but the way you frame it is exactly what I don't want this team to do. They have a lot of work to do. They don't need to be thinking, "Hey, maybe it will only take 3 years!"

I'm not for tanking for a savior. We already got that guy. Now build around him, not what TK might be 5 years from now. That's why I don't get "seeing what you have now", but subscribing to the "if the kid can't beat out X vet" stuff. Frost, Tippett, and York, I'd say are the guys to keep an eye on this year vis a vis the future. Everyone else is a known commodity. Why not give some guys a legit shot in a season you don't care about winning anyway? And by legit shot I mean 20ish games at least. I'm pretty sure the wolves won't kill a kids career that quick.

 

[tnfrs]

Appreciate the response. You are much more optimistic than I am when you say the forward group isn't bad if all the young guys improved. I'd like this team to aim higher than "not bad and hard work will solve the rest". Also, that's a lot of ifs.

The too soon thing was a joke, but the way you frame it is exactly what I don't want this team to do. They have a lot of work to do. They don't need to be thinking, "Hey, maybe it will only take 3 years!"

I'm not for tanking for a savior. We already got that guy. Now build around him, not what TK might be 5 years from now. That's why I don't get "seeing what you have now", but subscribing to the "if the kid can't beat out X vet" stuff. Frost, Tippett, and York, I'd say are the guys to keep an eye on this year vis a vis the future. Everyone else is a known commodity. Why not give some guys a legit shot in a season you don't care about winning anyway? And by legit shot I mean 20ish games at least. I'm pretty sure the wolves won't kill a kids career that quick.

Because if we're shit this year, or next year, TK can still be moved. And if we've improved enough and turned things around maybe he resigns for a sweetheart deal. Maybe hes not with us when we win a stanley cup. remember before chicago won their first cup they had havlat and the next year they had hossa and won. TK is someone that will have value down the line when we're looking to add those last pieces. If Tippet shits the bed this year, he can be moved hes an RFA, but TK we know will still have value for a few years. All of this depends how much we've improved.

and i dont mean improved as a team, thats not the goal, we just dont have the defense and we're missing a legitimate top line, but the top line is coming soon, the defense can be built up slowly, so if the forwards prove they wanna win here and have a good start and everyones flying all year then thats improvement. it wont take long to see whos committed and whos put the work in this off season.

 

[deadhead]

You can rebuild successfully simply by following the mantra of no big contracts for players near 30.
That is, build a roster of players in their 20s with upside.
Patch with veterans on short-term deals who can be moved at the TDL each year. Don't rush and ruin prospects (see Buffalo).

If someone "makes an offer you can't refuse . . ." but no need to make panic trades and hope for lottery luck.
Because if you strip the roster and don't get lucky, you can suck for a decade.

The key is consistency and patience - don't be fooled by a better than expected season into thinking mission accomplished.

 

[Cody Webster]

Yes, it's hard to stay that bad for that long.

Flyers are not systematically incompetent, their drafting has probably been middle of the road, maybe better than average after the 2nd round, player development is middle of the road, pro scouting worse than average. Just enough to stay mediocre, which they've been the past decade, 4 PO appearance, 2013-14, 2015-16, 2017-18, 2019-20.

The key issue has been lack of a coherent strategic vision, Holmgren traded Carter/Richards, then instead of rebuilding, patched for 2 seasons, then Hextall started to rebuild, stopped for 3 years, then made the B Schenn trade, Fletcher was hired to "win now" which worked for a year then failed due to lack of talent and bad luck (Patrick, Ellis).

What stands out more than anything is this lack of consistency, stumbling from one GM and one HC to another, no long-term focus, no vision of what the team should look like 3-5 years down the road.

You can run a successful tank (with a little luck), you can rebuild without tanking by focusing on incrementally improving your talent base.
Either way, you have to determine your strategy and then implement it.

LOL. In what world?

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Because if we're shit this year, or next year, TK can still be moved. And if we've improved enough and turned things around maybe he resigns for a sweetheart deal. Maybe hes not with us when we win a stanley cup. remember before chicago won their first cup they had havlat and the next year they had hossa and won. TK is someone that will have value down the line when we're looking to add those last pieces. If Tippet shits the bed this year, he can be moved hes an RFA, but TK we know will still have value for a few years. All of this depends how much we've improved.

and i dont mean improved as a team, thats not the goal, we just dont have the defense and we're missing a legitimate top line, but the top line is coming soon, the defense can be built up slowly, so if the forwards prove they wanna win here and have a good start and everyones flying all year then thats improvement. it wont take long to see whos committed and whos put the work in this off season.

If TK wants to re-sign that is reason enough to move him. Sweetheart deal lol. Flyers have to pay more not less for players.

 

[tnfrs]

If TK wants to re-sign that is reason enough to move him. Sweetheart deal lol. Flyers have to pay more not less for players.

so we're not building, and we should trade players who want to be here, but we should pay them more?

 

[deadhead]

LOL. In what world?

In a world where no prospect has gone elsewhere and succeeded, unlike Sharp, Justin Williams and Seidenberg.
In a world where most draft picks, barring injury (Laberge, Patrick) lived up to their pre-Flyers (post draft before they became Flyers) performance.

Those high prospect ratings were based on draft position, not post-draft performance.
The top picks generally panned out, it was the lower ranked prospects who failed to develop, mostly b/c they weren't that good.

Development is a bit overrated in hockey, you can teach fundamentals on defense, you can hire skating coaches (but they can't save a player like Strome), but you can't teach instincts, a top wrist shot, lateral agility and body control, etc. Scouting is more important, you need to give your AHL coaches players with enough talent to mold into NHL quality players.

Could the Flyers improve development? Sure, and they've invested in facilities, support personnel, etc. the last few years. They made a number of personnel changes, trying to improve their process. But no team is going to turn bottom six players into top six forwards on a regular basis. And most of the time, that development occurs over years in the NHL, Stephenson on Vegas is a good example.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Because if we're shit this year, or next year, TK can still be moved. And if we've improved enough and turned things around maybe he resigns for a sweetheart deal. Maybe hes not with us when we win a stanley cup. remember before chicago won their first cup they had havlat and the next year they had hossa and won. TK is someone that will have value down the line when we're looking to add those last pieces. If Tippet shits the bed this year, he can be moved hes an RFA, but TK we know will still have value for a few years. All of this depends how much we've improved.

and i dont mean improved as a team, thats not the goal, we just dont have the defense and we're missing a legitimate top line, but the top line is coming soon, the defense can be built up slowly, so if the forwards prove they wanna win here and have a good start and everyones flying all year then thats improvement. it wont take long to see whos committed and whos put the work in this off season.

I know you are new here, but you have to stop making these cogent and well reasoned arguments. You are supposed to panic and overreact to every single decision you don't like and if you dare to defend the team it is only because you are stupid and weak and can't think for yourself, and also deferring to people that have far more knowledge and access to information than you means you are stupid and weak because having access that to that information and experience is a sign that you don't know anything but the posters on here who somehow have time to go to work or school and watch every Flyers game and every game of draft or organizational prospects are the true experts.

Just relax. Briere is a plant by the Ghost of Ed Snider to promote John Tortarella to ultimately become the new Chairman of Comcast Spectacor and remove anyone under 6'3" who can't fight from the roster and only play players over 35 and if that doesn't happen it isn't because the posters here are wrong it is because of some outside or intervening force prevented it from happen, but not because the Flyers did something good.

 

[ybnvs]

I know you are new here, but you have to stop making these cogent and well reasoned arguments. You are supposed to panic and overreact to every single decision you don't like and if you dare to defend the team it is only because you are stupid and weak and can't think for yourself, and also deferring to people that have far more knowledge and access to information than you means you are stupid and weak because having access that to that information and experience is a sign that you don't know anything but the posters on here who somehow have time to go to work or school and watch every Flyers game and every game of draft or organizational prospects are the true experts.

Just relax. Briere is a plant by the Ghost of Ed Snider to promote John Tortarella to ultimately become the new Chairman of Comcast Spectacor and remove anyone under 6'3" who can't fight from the roster and only play players over 35 and if that doesn't happen it isn't because the posters here are wrong it is because of some outside or intervening force prevented it from happen, but not because the Flyers did something good.

Herp derp.

 

[Beef Invictus]

In a world where no prospect has gone elsewhere and succeeded, unlike Sharp, Justin Williams and Seidenberg.
In a world where most draft picks, barring injury (Laberge, Patrick) lived up to their pre-Flyers (post draft before they became Flyers) performance.

Those high prospect ratings were based on draft position, not post-draft performance.
The top picks generally panned out, it was the lower ranked prospects who failed to develop, mostly b/c they weren't that good.

Development is a bit overrated in hockey, you can teach fundamentals on defense, you can hire skating coaches (but they can't save a player like Strome), but you can't teach instincts, a top wrist shot, lateral agility and body control, etc. Scouting is more important, you need to give your AHL coaches players with enough talent to mold into NHL quality players.

Could the Flyers improve development? Sure, and they've invested in facilities, support personnel, etc. the last few years. They made a number of personnel changes, trying to improve their process. But no team is going to turn bottom six players into top six forwards on a regular basis. And most of the time, that development occurs over years in the NHL, Stephenson on Vegas is a good example.

The Flyers ruining players so severely they can't recover isn't as good a thing as you think it is.

 

[BernieParent]

LOL. In what world?

This is the road:

 

[tnfrs]

Theres no rush to bring prospects up this year. The phantoms are going to have a pretty stacked roster in terms of prospects. If Brink and Andrae play down there all year with Desnoyers, JR Avon and Gendron are playing there this year, Samu Tuomaala is coming, Grans and a bunch of defense prospects plus Ersson they could go on a serious run and it would be infinitely better for their development to play those games this year than to be part of a losing campaign with the flyers. Maximum Rizz, Devin Kaplan, Knuble, Bump and Barkey and Bonk are all guys that will have a chance to join them at the end of the year too when their college and junior seasons end. Barkey and Bonk are less likely because theyll be top line players for London's playoffs and possible memorial cup run, but if theyre available in the spring the Phantoms will be fkn stacked to the absolute tits.

Theres a good chance Kaplan Knuble and Bump are all Phantoms in 2025 when Brink and Andrae and Desnoyers graduate. We've also got 4 picks in the first 2 rounds of the draft this year so you can likely add a few names in the off season, and maybe we draft a player whos NHL ready, but the Phantoms are going to have a constant stream of players to develop who are all competing with each other instead of career AHL guys. It makes more sense to shelter the rookies for another year so they can still play hard meaningful hockey.

 

[macleish1974]

This is the road:

Looks like a side road out of Warminster after a hard winter.......

 

[blackjackmulligan]

The Flyers ruining players so severely they can't recover isn't as good a thing as you think it is.

you are as consistent as dead. Cant recover because they were never that good.

Theres no rush to bring prospects up this year. The phantoms are going to have a pretty stacked roster in terms of prospects. If Brink and Andrae play down there all year with Desnoyers, JR Avon and Gendron are playing there this year, Samu Tuomaala is coming, Grans and a bunch of defense prospects plus Ersson they could go on a serious run and it would be infinitely better for their development to play those games this year than to be part of a losing campaign with the flyers. Maximum Rizz, Devin Kaplan, Knuble, Bump and Barkey and Bonk are all guys that will have a chance to join them at the end of the year too when their college and junior seasons end. Barkey and Bonk are less likely because theyll be top line players for London's playoffs and possible memorial cup run, but if theyre available in the spring the Phantoms will be fkn stacked to the absolute tits.

Theres a good chance Kaplan Knuble and Bump are all Phantoms in 2025 when Brink and Andrae and Desnoyers graduate. We've also got 4 picks in the first 2 rounds of the draft this year so you can likely add a few names in the off season, and maybe we draft a player whos NHL ready, but the Phantoms are going to have a constant stream of players to develop who are all competing with each other instead of career AHL guys. It makes more sense to shelter the rookies for another year so they can still play hard meaningful hockey.

kaplan and Knuble will be 4 year college guys imo. Unless they somehow take huge steps and breakout.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

Its entirely possible that the idea was to tank when Danny was hired but getting Michkov at 7 gives us a far more talented player than anyone in the next 2 drafts so theyve switched gears and now want to see what the current roster is capable of with the right leadership. I dont think they expect to make the playoffs, but showing confidence in the the young guys now might be a good thing for their development. We already have players that can absolutely be part of a middle 6 on a contender and maybe not everyone agrees on who those players are right now but this year is about figuring that out, and thats far more valuable than a 25% chance to draft first overall. Maybe the team just isnt making it obvious we're tanking so the players can still have some dignity while they grow into their roles. Its hard enough seeing the fanbase scream for them to be losers, I dont blame the front office for slow burning the rebuild in the beginning.

You keep saying this draft isn't good, have you even watched any prospects? There are some damn good players, demidov is who I want, but you keep saying this as if it's a terrible draft, it's not

you are as consistent as dead. Cant recover because they were never that good.


kaplan and Knuble will be 4 year college guys imo. Unless they somehow take huge steps and breakout.

Possible, but Kaplan is gonna be a solid piece, he's got the tools, and plays very smart, I'd be shocked if he's any less than a top 9 guy

 

[JojoTheWhale]

*sobbing into a dog for the 17th straight year*

Laberge failing had nothing to do with injuries. He was good in Juniors for a grand total of 2-3 months ever. They just happened to be right before the draft.

 

[tnfrs]

You keep saying this draft isn't good, have you even watched any prospects? There are some damn good players, demidov is who I want, but you keep saying this as if it's a terrible draft, it's not

Ive never said it was a terrible draft, I've absolutely suggested the top 3 in 2024 isnt full of generational talent like 2023 and theres probably not a bonafide 1C or 1D like other drafts. But ive also said its loaded with defense prospects and theres more than a handful of players Ive mentioned by name that are worth getting excited about. Tanking for Demidov is just not a good idea.

you are as consistent as dead. Cant recover because they were never that good.


kaplan and Knuble will be 4 year college guys imo. Unless they somehow take huge steps and breakout.

ya its def possible they do 4 years, wade allison did