Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid 3 - Flyers Rumors and Media Mentions: Never Ending Circles

[WIP CALLER]

Yes, that example applies to all future Flyers GMs forever. Cluck Fletcher was royal ass, so all GMs down the road must be as well.

Love the hot takes.

On top of that, every decision I disagree with - fire them! They're stupid!

When Fletcher was GM, everybody wanted them to be unified in a plan. That's fair.

Now that DB is here, they clearly have a plan. The problem now is that it's not the plan that this board agrees with. Hence, all decisions are immediately wrong.

You can disagree with the approach; but in 2 years if you are all right, then be proud? Stop following the team. Or stop following them now if you wish and you don't want to trust.

You can disagree with approach, plan and individual decisions, but still hope that things can work out, rather than making every decision into a black and white, immediately gratifying expectation.

"They didn't draft Buium! I never saw the dude, and neither did a bunch of the people who ran the polls, but Briere is an idiot for not listening to people who haven't watched him and not ignoring his scouts who have and taking him anyway! But wait, Hextall shouldn't have ignored the scouts and taken Patrick in 2017, either!"

The take is simple: you can hope they were right, and wait. Or assume they're wrong, and complain. How will it work out? Nobody knows. Be critical - that's ok.

Reality is, we don't know. They don't either [how they will turn out]. Most on this board, however, just complain.

You can choose to stick your head in the sand with hope and prayers that things work out or you can look at things for what they are because this team is following the same "plan" they've been down the last almost 15 years. They want to retool on the fly adding "depth" instead of taking their lumps for a season or two and obtaining high end talent. We know how retools on the fly end, they've been doing it for over a decade now. They'll be first round fodder for the teams that choose to build correctly soon enough. But I sincerely wish your hopes and prayers that this team turns into a contender by doing the same things they've done previously all the best.

 

[SickScottMondo]

They've been clear about the plan since Briere was hired, they're not going to tank, they are going to accumulate young assets. Doesn't mean it'll work, but there is a plan. They want to get younger and faster.

Briere has added one player over 30, Hathaway. He's signed Poehling, added Drysdale, added marginal depth to LHV, accumulated a bunch of draft picks.

He didn't trade Seeler b/c he has too many young RHD in the pipeline and he wasn't going to bring that much in trade. And they are being conservative with prospects, good teams marinate their prospects and bring them up when they're NHL ready, not throw them in over their heads.

I'd have moved Laughton, I think they overrate him.

Stuck with Risto until he shows he's healthy and contract gets shorter - big RHD who play defense are coveted assets, Briere doesn't want to pay to get rid of his cap hit.

Bought out Atkinson, buried Peterson, Johanssen headed to LTIR, still have Ellis and Hayes' retention.
Take another couple season to clean up CF's mess.

He's not cleaning up the mess, he's using an old dry mop to just mush it around and say he did something with it.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

They've been clear about the plan since Briere was hired, they're not going to tank, they are going to accumulate young assets. Doesn't mean it'll work, but there is a plan. They want to get younger and faster.

Briere has added one player over 30, Hathaway. He's signed Poehling, added Drysdale, added marginal depth to LHV, accumulated a bunch of draft picks.

He didn't trade Seeler b/c he has too many young RHD in the pipeline and he wasn't going to bring that much in trade. And they are being conservative with prospects, good teams marinate their prospects and bring them up when they're NHL ready, not throw them in over their heads.

I'd have moved Laughton, I think they overrate him.

Stuck with Risto until he shows he's healthy and contract gets shorter - big RHD who play defense are coveted assets, Briere doesn't want to pay to get rid of his cap hit.

Bought out Atkinson, buried Peterson, Johanssen headed to LTIR, still have Ellis and Hayes' retention.
Take another couple season to clean up CF's mess.

We can’t hand wave Hayes like anyone but Briere made the choice to go down that road. Same goes for Peterson.

Seeler is also 30+. Extending a UFA is even more impactful than simply signing one because it costs you the contract plus the assets. With that being said, I don’t have a problem with keeping Seeler. If they’re going to give too much term for one guy like that on the back end who is effective on the ice, I’ll deal with it. It’s the constant need for quantity with assets that stack in horrific ways. If Seeler doesn’t eliminate the need for the Johnsons and Staals, then why are you paying him real money and trading assets for them on top?

 

[blackjackmulligan]

They've been clear about the plan since Briere was hired, they're not going to tank, they are going to accumulate young assets. Doesn't mean it'll work, but there is a plan. They want to get younger and faster.

Briere has added one player over 30, Hathaway. He's signed Poehling, added Drysdale, added marginal depth to LHV, accumulated a bunch of draft picks.

He didn't trade Seeler b/c he has too many young RHD in the pipeline and he wasn't going to bring that much in trade. And they are being conservative with prospects, good teams marinate their prospects and bring them up when they're NHL ready, not throw them in over their heads.

I'd have moved Laughton, I think they overrate him.

Stuck with Risto until he shows he's healthy and contract gets shorter - big RHD who play defense are coveted assets, Briere doesn't want to pay to get rid of his cap hit.

Bought out Atkinson, buried Peterson, Johanssen headed to LTIR, still have Ellis and Hayes' retention.
Take another couple season to clean up CF's mess.

Come on dead there is no plan. They take it week by week. As soon as they have cap space they will spend it all. Same old flyers way. Torts has a huge say at the NHL level. He runs that show.

Your defense of not trading Seeler is company line speak.

Didn't you like Chuck as a GM? Danny acquired Cal and RYJO. Not Chuck. No need to buy out Cam at all. Ride it out.

 

[CapnZin]

We can’t hand wave Hayes like anyone but Briere made the choice to go down that road. Same goes for Peterson.

Seeler is also 30+. Extending a UFA is even more impactful than simply signing one because it costs you the contract plus the assets. With that being said, I don’t have a problem with keeping Seeler. If they’re going to give too much term for one guy like that on the back end who is effective on the ice, I’ll deal with it. It’s the constant need for quantity with assets that stack in horrific ways. If Seeler doesn’t eliminate the need for the Johnsons and Staals, then why are you paying him real money and trading assets for them on top?

I believe, but do not agree with, their plan is a 2-step process for a ‘rebuild’ without bending the already fragile culture they’ve built: 1) the culture, not the system; determines the players success in Philly. Work ethic trumps skill in Tort’s system. 2) Bring in assists (young or old) that fit it. We can argue semantics about passing on skill for fit all we want, but we know how the team operates. They’d rather eat sloppy Joe with high grade minced beef because it’s the old, working man’s meal rather than craft a nice dish showcasing said beef. I know it’s a dumb comparison, but I believe it to be true. I’ve already begun to accept the way the team operates, so the passing of Buium is and was expected rather than me being like “wtf are they doing”.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Haven’t watched as just posted but maybe something interesting is said in it…

 

[freakydallas13]

They've been clear about the plan since Briere was hired, they're not going to tank, they are going to accumulate young assets. Doesn't mean it'll work, but there is a plan. They want to get younger and faster.

Briere has added one player over 30, Hathaway. He's signed Poehling, added Drysdale, added marginal depth to LHV, accumulated a bunch of draft picks.

He didn't trade Seeler b/c he has too many young RHD in the pipeline and he wasn't going to bring that much in trade. And they are being conservative with prospects, good teams marinate their prospects and bring them up when they're NHL ready, not throw them in over their heads.

I'd have moved Laughton, I think they overrate him.

Stuck with Risto until he shows he's healthy and contract gets shorter - big RHD who play defense are coveted assets, Briere doesn't want to pay to get rid of his cap hit.

Bought out Atkinson, buried Peterson, Johanssen headed to LTIR, still have Ellis and Hayes' retention.
Take another couple season to clean up CF's mess.

So we're just repeating the Hextall era. No tanking. Over marinate prospects. Don't move on from obvious vets already on the team.

Wonderful.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Haven’t watched as just posted but maybe something interesting is said in it…

Holmgren and Jones at the table in the scouting meeting. Not unexpected, but worth filing away in the evidence folders.

I don't see Lombardi or Murray.

 

[Cody Webster]

Haven’t watched as just posted but maybe something interesting is said in it…

By any chance is it "We have no idea what we're doing"

 

[Tarpongg]

Holmgren and Jones at the table in the scouting meeting. Not unexpected, but worth filing away in the evidence folders.

I don't see Lombardi or Murray.

Nice to have an inside look, all that manpower and payroll - just to take a guy you could’ve picked at 20. Brilliant

 

[pit]

Take another couple season to clean up CF's mess.

That's a long time to clean up one mistake.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Haven’t watched as just posted but maybe something interesting is said in it…

"continue??"

 

[trostol]

They've been clear about the plan since Briere was hired, they're not going to tank, they are going to accumulate young assets. Doesn't mean it'll work, but there is a plan. They want to get younger and faster.

Briere has added one player over 30, Hathaway. He's signed Poehling, added Drysdale, added marginal depth to LHV, accumulated a bunch of draft picks.

He didn't trade Seeler b/c he has too many young RHD in the pipeline and he wasn't going to bring that much in trade. And they are being conservative with prospects, good teams marinate their prospects and bring them up when they're NHL ready, not throw them in over their heads.

I'd have moved Laughton, I think they overrate him.

Stuck with Risto until he shows he's healthy and contract gets shorter - big RHD who play defense are coveted assets, Briere doesn't want to pay to get rid of his cap hit.

Bought out Atkinson, buried Peterson, Johanssen headed to LTIR, still have Ellis and Hayes' retention.
Take another couple season to clean up CF's mess.

what's the point of accumulating young assets and getting younger and faster if those young assets never get a chance to show what they can do. if they really wanted that..Seeler, Hathaway would not have been re-signed

 

[deadhead]

We can’t hand wave Hayes like anyone but Briere made the choice to go down that road. Same goes for Peterson.

Seeler is also 30+. Extending a UFA is even more impactful than simply signing one because it costs you the contract plus the assets. With that being said, I don’t have a problem with keeping Seeler. If they’re going to give too much term for one guy like that on the back end who is effective on the ice, I’ll deal with it. It’s the constant need for quantity with assets that stack in horrific ways. If Seeler doesn’t eliminate the need for the Johnsons and Staals, then why are you paying him real money and trading assets for them on top?

Seeler is different, he actually plays and shelters Drysdale. Didn't hear any rumors, but doubt they were offered more than a 4th, had they been offered a 2nd, I'll bet Briere would have jumped on it. But once you get past the top 50 picks or so, value on ice probably outweighs just another pick.

Staal/Johnson were signed as 7th D-men, who sit in the press box (a role you don't want for a prospect since it hinders development).

I'm impressed with their D-men coaching at LHV, Attard and Ginning didn't look out of place when they came up despite below average speed. Belpedio another who was adequate despite being a slow skater.

 

[deadhead]

what's the point of accumulating young assets and getting younger and faster if those young assets never get a chance to show what they can do. if they really wanted that..Seeler, Hathaway would not have been re-signed

Who is Seeler blocking right now?
Zamula, Ginning are 3LHD at best. No upside.
Andrae has 2LHD potential down the road, but didn't excel at LHV and probably not the player you want to pair with Drysdale, who needs a lot of work on defense.

Hathaway is 4RW, you're not playing Brink in that role. The candidates at LHV are a year away, those in college/CHL probably 2-3 years away, Tuomaala, Wisdom, Gendron, Kaplan, Powell.

The 4th line played a 3rd line role last season b/c of lack of depth, also b/c they were posting ridiculously good possession metrics. Hopefully with Michkov, Brink ready for the NHL, Foerster, Tippett, TK, Farabee, no room in top 9 for Hathaway.

I'd point out that last season, Hathaway at 32 was as good a skater as TK at 26 - he's aging very gracefully.

 

[trostol]

Who is Seeler blocking right now?
Zamula, Ginning are 3LHD at best. No upside.
Andrae has 2LHD potential down the road, but didn't excel at LHV and probably not the player you want to pair with Drysdale, who needs a lot of work on defense.

Hathaway is 4RW, you're not playing Brink in that role. The candidates at LHV are a year away, those in college/CHL probably 2-3 years away, Tuomaala, Wisdom, Gendron, Kaplan, Powell.

The 4th line played a 3rd line role last season b/c of lack of depth, also b/c they were posting ridiculously good possession metrics. Hopefully with Michkov, Brink ready for the NHL, Foerster, Tippett, TK, Farabee, no room in top 9 for Hathaway.

I'd point out that last season, Hathaway at 32 was as good a skater as TK at 26 - he's aging very gracefully.

we'll never know the answers to all those people you listed because ...if they were rebuilding, which they are not, we'd play them and be able to find out what they exactly are..so yes Seeler is blocking players..yes Hathaway is blocking players...again..its never been a rebuild

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Who is Seeler blocking right now?
Zamula, Ginning are 3LHD at best. No upside.
Andrae has 2LHD potential down the road, but didn't excel at LHV and probably not the player you want to pair with Drysdale, who needs a lot of work on defense.

Hathaway is 4RW, you're not playing Brink in that role. The candidates at LHV are a year away, those in college/CHL probably 2-3 years away, Tuomaala, Wisdom, Gendron, Kaplan, Powell.

The 4th line played a 3rd line role last season b/c of lack of depth, also b/c they were posting ridiculously good possession metrics. Hopefully with Michkov, Brink ready for the NHL, Foerster, Tippett, TK, Farabee, no room in top 9 for Hathaway.

I'd point out that last season, Hathaway at 32 was as good a skater as TK at 26 - he's aging very gracefully.

Why not? Why do you have to have the "traditional" 4th line make up. Put Brink with other younger skilled guys to see how it goes. Like Ollie who you mention at times.

GH should never ever see top 9 time. Only on a team like the Flyers does that happen.

If Seeler is not on this team is their record really any different?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Staal/Johnson were signed as 7th D-men, who sit in the press box (a role you don't want for a prospect since it hinders development).

Nonononono. We're rewriting history like we did with the Niskanen/Braun dynamic.

Staal started the year on the 2nd pair with Walker and then got hurt. They traded away a pick for Johnson with 18 Games left in the season and played him in 17, with the one miss being the second half of a back to back with both games on the road.

Neither one of those qualifies as a 7D under any reasonable definition.

 

[flyersnorth]

Who is Seeler blocking right now?
Zamula, Ginning are 3LHD at best. No upside.
Andrae has 2LHD potential down the road, but didn't excel at LHV and probably not the player you want to pair with Drysdale, who needs a lot of work on defense.

Hathaway is 4RW, you're not playing Brink in that role. The candidates at LHV are a year away, those in college/CHL probably 2-3 years away, Tuomaala, Wisdom, Gendron, Kaplan, Powell.

The 4th line played a 3rd line role last season b/c of lack of depth, also b/c they were posting ridiculously good possession metrics. Hopefully with Michkov, Brink ready for the NHL, Foerster, Tippett, TK, Farabee, no room in top 9 for Hathaway.

I'd point out that last season, Hathaway at 32 was as good a skater as TK at 26 - he's aging very gracefully.

Seeler had his breakout year at 29 years old in Philly. Was mostly a tweener before that, with one full NHL season.

To me, it makes sense to move on from Seeler and get some valuable assets for turning him into a serviceable NHL defenseman, and try to turn your own assets like Ginning (24) and Attard (25) into something similar. They are cheaper and they are younger. And if you develop them similarly, you can always trade them for a decent return, and repeat the cycle.

If this team were a Cup contender, or even just a playoff regular, I understand keeping a guy like Seeler. But at the point the Flyers are now, why do they need Deslauriers, Seeler, Hathaway, Johnson, Staal. As it stands, Brink will struggle to get a chance at being an NHL regular. Zamula will probably be short-changed as well. And there's just no room for Attard, Ginning, or any other defensemen.

I actually like Seeler. I have no issue with him in a vacuum. I also believe that Briere and co really do want to rebuild this team. With some of the more recent moves, however, it feels more like they're leaning towards shot-term buoyancy over long-term sustainability simply because they are increasing the level of difficulty to acquire high-end talent.

 

[kudymen]

Brother, it's not a contract prediction model. You're telling me an apple is a terrible orange. No one is arguing against that.

I don't even value the damn thing. I just think it's important to frame conversations properly.

This is my new favorite post of 2024 so far. Its just linguistically (??) beautiful. Thank you

 

[JojoTheWhale]

This is my new favorite post of 2024 so far. Its just linguistically (??) beautiful. Thank you

Well thank you, but the only post worthy of praise in that discussion is this one.

How should I read this? For example, what is it that makes Sanheim's contract the second-worst on the Flyers?

I respect the hell out of anyone whose reaction to something that seems weird is to ask for explanations from people with experience in the area instead of immediately turning it into a rant. The world would be one hell of a lot better if this was more common.

 

[freakydallas13]

Seeler is different, he actually plays and shelters Drysdale. Didn't hear any rumors, but doubt they were offered more than a 4th, had they been offered a 2nd, I'll bet Briere would have jumped on it. But once you get past the top 50 picks or so, value on ice probably outweighs just another pick.

Staal/Johnson were signed as 7th D-men, who sit in the press box (a role you don't want for a prospect since it hinders development).

I'm impressed with their D-men coaching at LHV, Attard and Ginning didn't look out of place when they came up despite below average speed. Belpedio another who was adequate despite being a slow skater.

They resigned Seeler 5 days before the trade deadline, Briere didn't want to even consider trading him. He wasn't even willing to wait until after the trade deadline to see what he could have gotten.

 

[deadhead]

Nonononono. We're rewriting history like we did with the Niskanen/Braun dynamic.

Staal started the year on the 2nd pair with Walker and then got hurt. They traded away a pick for Johnson with 18 Games left in the season and played him in 17, with the one miss being the second half of a back to back with both games on the road.

Neither one of those qualifies as a 7D under any reasonable definition.

Half their D-corp was injured when they acquired Johnson, they had traded Walker and were short on bodies. During the last 18 games, Johnson played 17, Zamula 14, Drysdale 7, Seeler 8, Staal 6, Attard 11, Ginning 8.
5x5 SVA,
Johnson 15:22, xGF% 52.92%
Zamula 15:38 xGF% 43.45%
Staal 13:13 xGF% 45.40%
Attard 13:03 xGF% 52.10%
Ginning 12:33 xGF% 53.69%

Staal played 14 games in the first half, 12:19 a night at 5x5
Belpedio played 12 games, 12:29 a night
Zamula (14:56) - Risto (14:58) were the third pair.

 

[renberg]

Nonononono. We're rewriting history like we did with the Niskanen/Braun dynamic.

Staal started the year on the 2nd pair with Walker and then got hurt. They traded away a pick for Johnson with 18 Games left in the season and played him in 17, with the one miss being the second half of a back to back with both games on the road.

Neither one of those qualifies as a 7D under any reasonable definition.

This franchise's love for toasted defenseman is mind boggling. Braun, Yandl, Staal and Johnson carry with them a tradition of bad play. They are always called the 7th d-man when they are signed until Tortorella gets hold of them. Then they're third pairing guys on a regular basis blocking younger talent. I can deal with Seeler's contract IF Johnson or some other crippled up old defenseman wasn't signed.

 

[deadhead]

we'll never know the answers to all those people you listed because ...if they were rebuilding, which they are not, we'd play them and be able to find out what they exactly are..so yes Seeler is blocking players..yes Hathaway is blocking players...again..its never been a rebuild

We pretty much know what they are, we're not talking 21-22 year old prospects with limited track records as pros - i.e. Samson (21), Grans (22), Andrae (22), McDonald (22)

Ginning has been playing pro hockey at a high level for six years, both the SHL and AHL.
Attard had 3 years of college and 2 in the AHL.
Zamula 127 AHL games and 90 NHL games.
They're 3rd pair defensemen at best, in the case of Ginning, probably 7th D-man material.
They all are below average skaters, there's just not a lot of upside.
Good depth, but not players you build around.