Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid 3 - Flyers Rumors and Media Mentions: Never Ending Circles

blackjackmulligan

Registered User
Jun 17, 2022
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Half their D-corp was injured when they acquired Johnson, they had traded Walker and were short on bodies. During the last 18 games, Johnson played 17, Zamula 14, Drysdale 7, Seeler 8, Staal 6, Attard 11, Ginning 8.
5x5 SVA,
Johnson 15:22, xGF% 52.92%
Zamula 15:38 xGF% 43.45%
Staal 13:13 xGF% 45.40%
Attard 13:03 xGF% 52.10%
Ginning 12:33 xGF% 53.69%

Staal played 14 games in the first half, 12:19 a night at 5x5
Belpedio played 12 games, 12:29 a night
Zamula (14:56) - Risto (14:58) were the third pair.
Belpedio > EJ. Wonder when Staal will be hired as a cout or coach?

We pretty much know what they are, we're not talking 21-22 year old prospects with limited track records as pros - i.e. Samson (21), Grans (22), Andrae (22), McDonald (22)

Ginning has been playing pro hockey at a high level for six years, both the SHL and AHL.
Attard had 3 years of college and 2 in the AHL.
Zamula 127 AHL games and 90 NHL games.
They're 3rd pair defensemen at best, in the case of Ginning, probably 7th D-man material.
They all are below average skaters, there's just not a lot of upside.
Good depth, but not players you build around.
Well the Flyers have very few players you can build around. Those 3 are not below average skaters either.

Well when the Flyers were rebuilding why didn't they give Attard and Ginning a longer look when they were younger to see what they have to offer? I am sure there is a post or 2 in the past of you saying they are NHL level defenseman and they will get their shot.
 

Fight4yourRight

“Chuck’s my guy”
Dec 18, 2017
3,935
8,248
Belpedio > EJ. Wonder when Staal will be hired as a cout or coach?


Well the Flyers have very few players you can build around. Those 3 are not below average skaters either.

Well when the Flyers were rebuilding why didn't they give Attard and Ginning a longer look when they were younger to see what they have to offer? I am sure there is a post or 2 in the past of you saying they are NHL level defenseman and they will get their shot.

I highly doubt that.
You really think Belpedio would have mastered the English-Russian translator app the same way EJ did?
 

thedjpd

Registered User
Sponsor
Dec 12, 2002
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San Jose, CA
You can choose to stick your head in the sand with hope and prayers that things work out or you can look at things for what they are because this team is following the same "plan" they've been down the last almost 15 years. They want to retool on the fly adding "depth" instead of taking their lumps for a season or two and obtaining high end talent. We know how retools on the fly end, they've been doing it for over a decade now. They'll be first round fodder for the teams that choose to build correctly soon enough. But I sincerely wish your hopes and prayers that this team turns into a contender by doing the same things they've done previously all the best.

There’s no stick your head in the sand here. Simple fact is none of us have any control over what happens anyway - we don’t run the team. I just don’t see how incessantly complaining nonstop about every decision to which none of us have 0 input is beneficial. That doesn’t mean agreeing or being on board with everything, so sticking your “head in the sand” doesn’t really apply when you have 0 influence. You either follow the decisions, because you're a fan, and hope they're the right ones, or endlessly complain about the same things over and over. The outcome from a team perspective is exactly the same. It's also ok to acknowledge the team is being stupid and still hope that things work out, but everybody here speaks as if they're completely brain dead and unless they do everything 100% in accordance to the viewpoint of this board, that they're total morons and don't know how to build a winning team - because many of us have clearly built winning, professional organizations.

The reality is that we, as fans (myself included), assume that a series of (correct decisions - read: aligned with *my* point of view) directly leads to a championship. Nobody actually acknowledges that luck plays a huge part in this and that most GMs are more or less the same (outliers not withstanding). "Excellent" GMs have never won, and "terrible" GMs have won the same. Same for coaches.

So swinging wildly to one extreme or another of fandom just seems fruitless.

A simple example: Flyers had the No.1 ranked prospect pool during Hextall's tenure. How has that worked out now that they are mostly 'developed?' Buffalo has had the number 1 prospect pool for years, but their two best Cs are still players they traded for. And their top picks put up numbers and lead them nowhere.

They resigned Seeler 5 days before the trade deadline, Briere didn't want to even consider trading him. He wasn't even willing to wait until after the trade deadline to see what he could have gotten.
I think this is where a lot of issue stem from, IMO of the TDL. People are assuming that Nick Seeler, a dude (who is severely dimished in this thread personally) is suddenly going to garner a 'high value asset' at the TDL. You can believe that if you wish, but I would have guessed if a high value asset was offered, he'd be gone.

But you're not talking about a guy who's worth a 4th or a 5th and suddenly grabs a 1st because it's the TDL. You may get a bit more (4th to 3rd) but it's fans dreaming on what the values of players actually are.

Maybe, just maybe, DB saw that he's not going to get much and that waiting wouldn't be worth it. Or not. I don't know.

I do know, that this board assumes he's an idiot and never bothered to check. That's sorta the default - 'they're stupid and don't know anything.' And that's the part I find a little frustrating. It could be true, but we can't do anything about it. We'll find out anyway, in time.
 

JojoTheWhale

"You should keep it." -- Striiker
May 22, 2008
35,944
111,070
I cannot imagine the balls it takes to come in here and say no one acknowledges how much luck is involved in winning. There have probably been 100,000 words dedicated to how much people overreact to the variance involved in that CBJ-TB sweep. Neither of those teams are even the Flyers.
 

freakydallas13

Registered User
Jan 30, 2007
7,561
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Vancouver
There’s no stick your head in the sand here. Simple fact is none of us have any control over what happens anyway - we don’t run the team. I just don’t see how incessantly complaining nonstop about every decision to which none of us have 0 input is beneficial. That doesn’t mean agreeing or being on board with everything, so sticking your “head in the sand” doesn’t really apply when you have 0 influence. You either follow the decisions, because you're a fan, and hope they're the right ones, or endlessly complain about the same things over and over. The outcome from a team perspective is exactly the same. It's also ok to acknowledge the team is being stupid and still hope that things work out, but everybody here speaks as if they're completely brain dead and unless they do everything 100% in accordance to the viewpoint of this board, that they're total morons and don't know how to build a winning team - because many of us have clearly built winning, professional organizations.

The reality is that we, as fans (myself included), assume that a series of (correct decisions - read: aligned with *my* point of view) directly leads to a championship. Nobody actually acknowledges that luck plays a huge part in this and that most GMs are more or less the same (outliers not withstanding). "Excellent" GMs have never won, and "terrible" GMs have won the same. Same for coaches.

So swinging wildly to one extreme or another of fandom just seems fruitless.

A simple example: Flyers had the No.1 ranked prospect pool during Hextall's tenure. How has that worked out now that they are mostly 'developed?' Buffalo has had the number 1 prospect pool for years, but their two best Cs are still players they traded for. And their top picks put up numbers and lead them nowhere.


I think this is where a lot of issue stem from, IMO of the TDL. People are assuming that Nick Seeler, a dude (who is severely dimished in this thread personally) is suddenly going to garner a 'high value asset' at the TDL. You can believe that if you wish, but I would have guessed if a high value asset was offered, he'd be gone.

But you're not talking about a guy who's worth a 4th or a 5th and suddenly grabs a 1st because it's the TDL. You may get a bit more (4th to 3rd) but it's fans dreaming on what the values of players actually are.

Maybe, just maybe, DB saw that he's not going to get much and that waiting wouldn't be worth it. Or not. I don't know.

I do know, that this board assumes he's an idiot and never bothered to check. That's sorta the default - 'they're stupid and don't know anything.' And that's the part I find a little frustrating. It could be true, but we can't do anything about it. We'll find out anyway, in time.
What was the downside of Briere waiting until after the trade deadline to sign Seeler? He didn't even want to see what he could have gotten at the 11th hour, because he was dead set on resigning him.

Also, if Seeler is so worthless, then why did we have to resign him for 4 more years? Surely dime a dozen players at that value can be aquired easily for pennies.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
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Armored Train
Half their D-corp was injured when they acquired Johnson, they had traded Walker and were short on bodies. During the last 18 games, Johnson played 17, Zamula 14, Drysdale 7, Seeler 8, Staal 6, Attard 11, Ginning 8.
5x5 SVA,
Johnson 15:22, xGF% 52.92%
Zamula 15:38 xGF% 43.45%
Staal 13:13 xGF% 45.40%
Attard 13:03 xGF% 52.10%
Ginning 12:33 xGF% 53.69%

Staal played 14 games in the first half, 12:19 a night at 5x5
Belpedio played 12 games, 12:29 a night
Zamula (14:56) - Risto (14:58) were the third pair.

They had ample call up options that didn't necessitate Johnson. Nor did he have to be re-signed.

The exact reasoning that led to wasting time with Hal Gill not only still reigns, but has gotten worse.
 

Flyerfan4life

Registered User
Jun 9, 2010
35,636
22,456
Richmond BC, Canada
They had ample call up options that didn't necessitate Johnson. Nor did he have to be re-signed.

The exact reasoning that led to wasting time with Hal Gill not only still reigns, but has gotten worse.
every year like clockwork its the same..

nothing matters and they wont block youth..

every godam year
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
51,059
22,234
So Andrea is simultaneously worse than Johnson right now at age 22, but also a future potential 2nd pairing defenceman?
Yes. Andrae is a worse candidate to sit in the press box when he could be playing every day for LHV, and his upside (at least according to Appleyard) is a 2nd pair D-man.

Andrae doesn't have to beat out Johnson, he has to beat out Zamula.
 

freakydallas13

Registered User
Jan 30, 2007
7,561
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Vancouver
Yes. Andrae is a worse candidate to sit in the press box when he could be playing every day for LHV, and his upside (at least according to Appleyard) is a 2nd pair D-man.

Andrae doesn't have to beat out Johnson, he has to beat out Zamula.
Serious question, because I don't know the answer:

How many dmen aren't good enough to be an NHL 6th dman in their draft +4, but year(s) later turn out to be a top 4 quality dman eventually? Is it a common occurrence across the NHL?
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
51,059
22,234
I cannot imagine the balls it takes to come in here and say no one acknowledges how much luck is involved in winning. There have probably been 100,000 words dedicated to how much people overreact to the variance involved in that CBJ-TB sweep. Neither of those teams are even the Flyers.
If it was just luck, why did TB make major personnel changes after that sweep and go on to win 2 SBs and lose in the finals?

Now TB was the better team in that series, but that sweep was also was a wake up call that the team that could put up gaudy regular season numbers wasn't optimized for a playoff run.

Same with Zito after he got swept by TB, goes out and gets Tkachuk.
 

JojoTheWhale

"You should keep it." -- Striiker
May 22, 2008
35,944
111,070
If it was just luck, why did TB make major personnel changes after that sweep and go on to win 2 SBs and lose in the finals?

Now TB was the better team in that series, but that sweep was also was a wake up call that the team that could put up gaudy regular season numbers wasn't optimized for a playoff run.

Same with Zito after he got swept by TB, goes out and gets Tkachuk.

Tampa correctly identified a team weakness. They also probably don’t get swept again if you run that series 100 times. Both can be true!
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
51,059
22,234
Serious question, because I don't know the answer:

How many dmen aren't good enough to be an NHL 6th dman in their draft +4, but year(s) later turn out to be a top 4 quality dman eventually? Is it a common occurrence across the NHL?
Forsling is a good example. Dumoulin didn't start until he was 24.
Orlov was 3rd pair at 24, 19:32 at 25 and top 4 at 26.
A lot of D-men mature later, and better teams tend to marinate their prospects longer.
 

freakydallas13

Registered User
Jan 30, 2007
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Vancouver
Forsling is a good example. Dumoulin didn't start until he was 24.
Orlov was 3rd pair at 24, 19:32 at 25 and top 4 at 26.
A lot of D-men mature later, and better teams tend to marinate their prospects longer.
Forsling played 79 NHL games with 13 points before he turned 22. Orlov had 20 points in 65 NHL games by this time compared to Andrae. I'd say both of those count as being good enough to be a #6 NHL dman, and both were ahead of Andrae who going into his D+5 season with 4 NHL games and 0 points.

It seems already a long shot that Andrae becomes a top 4 dman based on precedents, but he doesn't even compare favourably to 2 of the 3 examples you gave. His chances of becoming a legit top 4 player seem incredibly slim based the premises you have given.

Edit: Andrae did play well last season in the AHL though, so I think he still has the potential to be a useful bottom pairing dman. But top 4 projection seems unlikely to me.
 
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Magua

Entirely Palatable Product
Apr 25, 2016
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Huron of the Lakes
In a normal organization Andrae has his sink or swim year this year. But he'll be lucky to get a few games. We have no-future players under contract instead

I’ll explain it logically:

If Andrae was good enough, he could beat out Johnson and Zamula. But also Andrae is so good and such a sure thing we can pass on the most skilled defenseman in the draft.
 

prototypical4thliner

Registered User
Jan 12, 2017
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Forsling is a good example. Dumoulin didn't start until he was 24.
Orlov was 3rd pair at 24, 19:32 at 25 and top 4 at 26.
A lot of D-men mature later, and better teams tend to marinate their prospects longer.
I just don’t think the latter is true. They identify their talent quickly and give them their shot. That’s what makes the better teams successful.

The flyers have demonstrated less than ideal execution in their draft strategies AND not placing their draftees in positions to maximize their potential.
 

Kshahdoo

Registered User
Mar 23, 2008
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Moscow, Russia
To me the team's attack actually looks quite interesting. Young players who should keep progressing, veterans who aren't very old so still can produce good offense. I think there is a chance Couturier will get back closer to his better self. And then Michkov.

If they almost made playoffs in the previous season, I think there is a chance they will make playoffs this season. Of course some fans think it won't be good for the team, but I'm pretty sure players and management think different. You can't make players to be happy with losing, even more, teams should get rid of players that aren't trying their best to win.
 

usahockey22flyers

2 years away from being 2 years away
Nov 9, 2009
6,387
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Philly
Been on vacation - quite the few weeks in Flyers land.

Was never a big TK guy early on, thought he was overrated by the fanbase and was an above average player who was a cult hero because he would chirp... "eat up bud" still makes me cringe.

Last 2 seasons, he's been such a joy to watch, gives 110% - loves being here, super involved in the behind the scenes community stuff in Voorhees.

That being said - that contract just flat out is an overpay - the NMC makes it even worse. I want to know what Danny was offered for him. I get the cap is going up, but I just don't see how this dude fits the prime Michkov timeline. It's a huge let down. With each day that went by in July I was like "maybe there is a chance he gets moved, maybe they are that far apart...".

The fans online "it's an extra million! Get over it!" - have they not seen the retention, buyouts - this team has on their books? The NHL cap structure is so rigid and tough, that extra million adds up.

Just so predictable. Are we sure he is going to age well?

P.S - Jones and Briere picking up Matvei at the airport and giving him that hat to wear was a really nice touch. Nice job by them. Good PR move.
 

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