Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid 2, More Flyers Rumors & Media Mentions: Say It Like You Mean It

[usahockey22flyers]

They've said this for years and then done the opposite. It's how the team got to where it is and why they're somehow against the cap.

I don’t blame Danny Briere for the current cap situation nor do I hate that we’re up against the cap right now

 

[Random Forest]

What would have been the right thing for Jones and Hilferty to say?

I understand we want them to say “This organization was left in terrible shape, and we are going to slowly rebuild it back from the studs. And also our coach is an arrogant jackass who nobody likes”.

But they can’t say that. People are upset that they’re not tearing it down and rebuilding it back from the studs, which is what this is about. Not what they said yesterday.

So this is all just another version of the old “can they be successful without tearing it all down?” conversation.

 

[flyersnorth]

What would have been the right thing for Jones and Hilferty to say?

I understand we want them to say “this organization was left in terrible shape, and we are going to slowly rebuild it back from the studs”.

But they can’t say that. People are upset that they’re not tearing it down and rebuilding it back from the studs, which is what this is about. Not what they said yesterday.

So this is all just another version of the old “can they be successful without tearing it all down?” conversation.

I think it's possible to be successful without tearing it all down.

Florida basically has Ekblad and Barkov as their marquee top 5 picks, and that was 10 years ago. They leveraged Huberdeau to get Tkachuk. They signed Bob to a contract that looked awful only a few years ago, but has worked out when it had to. They made a number of other astute trades, signings, and waiver pickups that have made a difference.

The Flyers don't have an Ekblad or Barkov. Michkov may be a marquee forward we need, but he's a winger. They whiffed (in terms of outcome) on Patrick and Gauthier. That was their golden opportunity and it really hurts if you whiff on those top picks.

Can they recover from that without tearing it all down? That's the real question. We know what they are missing in terms of true talent level. A 1C and a 1D. Those are really hard to acquire outside of the draft. They either cost you a lot or already have too much mileage.

We know they're not tearing it all down. They've also continually said they're not looking for quick fixes and are prepared for a moderate amount of growing pains. But they're not resetting it to zero.

My confidence level that they can build a Cup contender is middling, but it can be done.

 

[Random Forest]

I think it's possible to be successful without tearing it all down.

Florida basically has Ekblad and Barkov as their marquee top 5 picks, and that was 10 years ago. They leveraged Huberdeau to get Tkachuk. They signed Bob to a contract that looked awful only a few years ago, but has worked out when it had to. They made a number of other astute trades, signings, and waiver pickups that have made a difference.

The Flyers don't have an Ekblad or Barkov. Michkov may be a marquee forward we need, but he's a winger. They whiffed (in terms of outcome) on Patrick and Gauthier. That was their golden opportunity and it really hurts if you whiff on those top picks.

Can they recover from that without tearing it all down? That's the real question. We know what they are missing in terms of true talent level. A 1C and a 1D. Those are really hard to acquire outside of the draft. They either cost you a lot or already have too much mileage.

We know they're not tearing it all down. They've also continually said they're not looking for quick fixes and are prepared for a moderate amount of growing pains. But they're not resetting it to zero.

My confidence level that they can build a Cup contender is middling, but it can be done.

This is pretty much my take too. I’ve been dragged into these debates enough times to not get into it here again, other than to reiterate that tearing it down is also itself an extremely risky proposition. There are no guaranteed outcomes.

 

[Curufinwe]

I agree with most of your post, but middling seems high simply based on the fact there are 32 teams, and maybe a quarter of them are Cup contenders.

 

[flyersnorth]

This is pretty much my take too. I’ve been dragged into these debates enough times to not get into it here again, other than to reiterate that tearing it down is also itself an extremely risky proposition. There are no guaranteed outcomes.

Exactly. In a vacuum, and in a bizarre universe where I am the GM, I would have leaned closer to tearing it down. Trading away guys that are probably outside of your target window - like Konecny, Laughton, Sanheim, Couturier - along with the ones they did trade, like Provy and Hayes. I doubt I could have offloaded all of them, but certainly some.

I do think that in the absence of 2-3 true standout stars at key positions (C, G, D), you're going to have a hard time being a serious Cup contender. You can make it to the 2nd and 3rd rounds, but will ultimately fall short in almost all cases. Your path is harder, and your margin for error is narrow.

So, yeah. Here we are. The Flyers are no longer going to be a bottom 5 team, which means they've chosen the path of most resistance.

It can work. But given what they have at this point in time, it just isn't likely based on historical outcomes.

 

[Beef Invictus]

What would have been the right thing for Jones and Hilferty to say?

I understand we want them to say “This organization was left in terrible shape, and we are going to slowly rebuild it back from the studs. And also our coach is an arrogant jackass who nobody likes”.

But they can’t say that. People are upset that they’re not tearing it down and rebuilding it back from the studs, which is what this is about. Not what they said yesterday.

So this is all just another version of the old “can they be successful without tearing it all down?” conversation.

Until their actions are actually constructive, the only useful thing they can say is "we have fired Tortorella and every one of us is resigning our positions effective immediately"

So really there is nothing good they can say, because they won't say and do that. They are the Dan Snyder era Washington Footskins. They'll continue pumping themselves up while doing the opposite of what they preach and acting like the fans who see through them are actually very stupid and ungrateful for the shit-butt product it is their duty to love and pay for.

 

[flyersnorth]

I agree with most of your post, but middling seems high simply based on the fact there are 32 teams, and maybe a quarter of them are Cup contenders.

Maybe it is high. There is a definite path to get there, but when I hear things like being keen on re-signing Konecny (who I love as a player here), they're closing windows that start to limit your options for true step change.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I think it's possible to be successful without tearing it all down.

Florida basically has Ekblad and Barkov as their marquee top 5 picks, and that was 10 years ago. They leveraged Huberdeau to get Tkachuk. They signed Bob to a contract that looked awful only a few years ago, but has worked out when it had to. They made a number of other astute trades, signings, and waiver pickups that have made a difference.

The Flyers don't have an Ekblad or Barkov. Michkov may be a marquee forward we need, but he's a winger. They whiffed (in terms of outcome) on Patrick and Gauthier. That was their golden opportunity and it really hurts if you whiff on those top picks.

Can they recover from that without tearing it all down? That's the real question. We know what they are missing in terms of true talent level. A 1C and a 1D. Those are really hard to acquire outside of the draft. They either cost you a lot or already have too much mileage.

We know they're not tearing it all down. They've also continually said they're not looking for quick fixes and are prepared for a moderate amount of growing pains. But they're not resetting it to zero.

My confidence level that they can build a Cup contender is middling, but it can be done.

Add in a goalie as well.

 

[flyersnorth]

Add in a goalie as well.

I go back and forth on this one. It seems like you can get by with a goalie on a heater at the right time.

So could Ersson or Fedotov be that guy? Kolosov? I don't know, but I'm hoping at least one of them can play at that high level when it counts.

This is all several years down the road, though!

 

[ponder719]

I don’t blame Danny Briere for the current cap situation nor do I hate that we’re up against the cap right now

I'll say that I'm with you on the former. The current cap situation was years in the making, and DB hasn't made it all that much worse with his actions since getting the big chair.

The latter, though, that I can't agree with. If we weren't up against the cap, we could actually use the cap space to our advantage. I don't mind us having terrible players on our roster for the foreseeable future if we're being paid to take them; I mind paying to acquire them because our evaluations are bad *coughdeslaurierscough*, or having to pay to get rid of them because we can't see their contracts out comfortably *coughhayescough*.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I have no idea how there is such negativity following that *business focused* press conference yesterday

They really didn’t talk about hockey that much - and when they did Jonesy said multiple times they aren’t doing anything crazy because of their cap restrictions and how the roster is set up

I get it - the franchise has sucked for a decade, but this wasn’t a Dave Scott press conference - these two at least show respect to the fans and have some legit juice/energy

Did Jones announce they were going to hang a we almost made the playoffs banner?

 

[captainpaxil]

Cooter tippet and sanheim are the only players we have signed into the Michkov era. We're stripping it down we just have to find studs

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Calling Couturier Cooter makes me want to break things

 

[usahockey22flyers]

I'll say that I'm with you on the former. The current cap situation was years in the making, and DB hasn't made it all that much worse with his actions since getting the big chair.

The latter, though, that I can't agree with. If we weren't up against the cap, we could actually use the cap space to our advantage. I don't mind us having terrible players on our roster for the foreseeable future if we're being paid to take them; I mind paying to acquire them because our evaluations are bad *coughdeslaurierscough*, or having to pay to get rid of them because we can't see their contracts out comfortably *coughhayescough*.

But they already did use space to leverage picks - they can’t do that forever

 

[ponder719]

But they already did use space to leverage picks - they can’t do that forever

Who said forever? They've done it a grand total of twice, both in the same season, taking on Petersen and taking on Johansen. Every other trade in which we've acquired a bad player, we've paid for them as though they were good. This is the kind of thing you need to do for at least a couple of years, multiple times a year, while you build out a prospect pool that can handle a couple players going bust, as some inevitably will.

We are, to borrow a quote from under your SN, 2 years away from being 2 years away, and we're going to keep being like that until we get past the idea that we can win without talent. I just want to get off the mediocrity treadmill, and nothing about "we're going to have a quiet offseason and resign Erik Johnson for veteran leadership" suggests they plan to hop off. It's frustrating.

 

[pooch]

Who said forever? They've done it a grand total of twice, both in the same season, taking on Petersen and taking on Johansen. Every other trade in which we've acquired a bad player, we've paid for them as though they were good. This is the kind of thing you need to do for at least a couple of years, multiple times a year, while you build out a prospect pool that can handle a couple players going bust, as some inevitably will.

We are, to borrow a quote from under your SN, 2 years away from being 2 years away, and we're going to keep being like that until we get past the idea that we can win without talent. I just want to get off the mediocrity treadmill, and nothing about "we're going to have a quiet offseason and resign Erik Johnson for veteran leadership" suggests they plan to hop off. It's frustrating.

They also retained for Vegas on the Hanifin deal for a pick. So....yay?

 

[Beef Invictus]

But they already did use space to leverage picks - they can’t do that forever

As few as possible.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

Who said forever? They've done it a grand total of twice, both in the same season, taking on Petersen and taking on Johansen. Every other trade in which we've acquired a bad player, we've paid for them as though they were good. This is the kind of thing you need to do for at least a couple of years, multiple times a year, while you build out a prospect pool that can handle a couple players going bust, as some inevitably will.

We are, to borrow a quote from under your SN, 2 years away from being 2 years away, and we're going to keep being like that until we get past the idea that we can win without talent. I just want to get off the mediocrity treadmill, and nothing about "we're going to have a quiet offseason and resign Erik Johnson for veteran leadership" suggests they plan to hop off. It's frustrating.

I also would like to retain one more big contract for another first or prospect - no doubt about it. It’s just tough with how this roster was constructed by Chuck

 

[orangey]

Whiffing on two top 5 picks is just a franchise killer. Now you basically have to luck into a stud D and a franchise C and that extremely unlikely to happen. Especially for this team.

They need to level with the fans, sell, and tank but they simply refuse to do it. So we get another half-hearted retool to just make the playoffs as the upside, as with Hextall, with likely the same result of perpetual mediocrity. Time is a flat circle and this team is a perfect example of that.

It's just really hard to care about what they do when you already know the result. They're going to waste Michkov's entire career like they did with G.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

There

I also would like to retain one more big contract for another first or prospect - no doubt about it. It’s just tough with how this roster was constructed by Chuck

Seeler + Laughton is 5.7 alone. Hathaway takes that to 8. Tippett could have been traded. Gauthier's ELC did not have to be traded for a player already making 2.3 and needing a raise.

Whether you agree or disagree with the choices is up to you, but Briere had roads to space and chose not to take them. There's no way to make that go away.

 

[wankstifier]

Do we like any of Briere's signings so far? Ersson, maybe Poehling? Guessing York and Foerster will be on the higher end, too, based on their usage.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

There


Seeler + Laughton is 5.7 alone. Hathaway takes that to 8. Tippett could have been traded. Gauthier's ELC did not have to be traded for a player already making 2.3 and needing a raise.

Whether you agree or disagree with the choices is up to you, but Briere had roads to space and chose not to take them. There's no way to make that go away.

That’s fair - but also lets see what they do this summer

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I'll say that I'm with you on the former. The current cap situation was years in the making, and DB hasn't made it all that much worse with his actions since getting the big chair.

The latter, though, that I can't agree with. If we weren't up against the cap, we could actually use the cap space to our advantage. I don't mind us having terrible players on our roster for the foreseeable future if we're being paid to take them; I mind paying to acquire them because our evaluations are bad *coughdeslaurierscough*, or having to pay to get rid of them because we can't see their contracts out comfortably *coughhayescough*.

How much say did DB have on the ND contract? Ivan seems like an overpay (though short term), he overpaid to keep Seeler instead of selling high, TBD on Tippet. To say he hasn't made it much worse is not a good sign.

Has he made it better? Will there be a bad TK ext also coming? Wonder what Hart would have received?

 

[Beef Invictus]

That’s fair - but also lets see what they do this summer

I've got a suspicion that they'll do the same kind of thing this group has always done. I simply cannot understand where this hope for a sudden change of heart in these people comes from.