Therrien - New Season Edition

[Cole Caulifield]

this is the kind of post that will look very foolish if/when the team runs into struggles this year...

nothing is black and white.

most criticism of MT has always been nuanced, not that he is purely an "idiot". Mediocre or average is what i recall seeing him described as more often than not.

point i made multiple times is that a superior coach would have gotten more out of guys like beaulieu/galch/eller/sekac et., and that MT's usage of them and managing of the players on the roster was less than stellar.

that he has now adapted can be seen as a result of the players now being ready, validating his approach, but can just as easily be seen as the result of him finally doing what should have/could have been done much sooner... validating the notion that he is mediocre.

blind squirrels do eventually find nuts, so i'd be wary of using a 5-game hot streak to hold up as "proof" that he's a great coach... heck, he made the finals with Pitt, only to be fired a year later.


5-0 feels great. team is playing pretty well. Price continues to be a hart-worthy impact player. Let's hold off on the jack adams celebration until the team has undergone some adversity this year, no?

How so ? All I said is that MB gave more tools to MT, so of course we are getting better results...

It's undeniable that the 4th line playing defensive missions and coming out on top is a major game changer compared to Malhotra, Prust and Bournival and whomever terrible player we had down there.

It's undeniable that Galchenyuk has improved by filling out over the summer.

It's undeniable that Petry has made a huge impact on our blueline.

Not sure how it's foolish to say that MT has more tools to work with.

Whoever thinks a slight change in strategy would have had this much of an impact without the above... or would even have been possible without the above... are the ones who are being foolish.

And of course we will have stretches where we lose games and don't play well... like any other team. We might even finish below 110 pts. That still won't make my post foolish. What's important is how we play in the playoffs*. And that's what I'll judge our season on.

*provided we don't get a bunch of freak injuries

yeah, and we could be doing much worse than Semin in our top-6... or Desharnais in our top-9... or Plekanec as our #1 C...

you just hit the nail on the head of what many of the so-called Therrien "haters" have been saying all along...

He isn't, by any means, the "worst" coach in the league... Just not one of the elite coaches.

in a position that has no restrictions beyond availability of an upgrade, why would any franchise committed to winning settle for anything short of the absolute best coach they can attract? "good enough" = mediocre.

good enough can certainly win a cup, especially with a generational talent in nets. that's no reason to be satisfied with such an important role.

lol at the blatant moving of the goal posts and history re-writing going on here.

MT was characterized as a liar, a coward who throws his players under the bus, an idiot, a dinosaur, a guy who plays favourites, a guy who would ruin star players.... just about anything you can think of. Just read one of a million posts by LG on the subject... he flat out says he's one of the worst coaches in the league, and he's clearly not alone in this.

Now you're trying to speak for the majority and say he's average ? If he were average, there is no way that this much hate would be directed his way. It would be beyond silly to spend this much time and complain this much about an average coach getting good results and clearly not hindering his team.

You say yourself you can win the cup with an average coach... but we keep hearing that we can't win a cup with MT. Been said time and time again.

In the end, I think you can't speak for everyone, neither can I. I won't attempt to create 2 sides here because I think everyone has a nuanced opinion. But there are many who don't see clearly when it comes to Therrien. Many who want to see him fail, who love to thump their chest and say they were right when the habs lose games and are always ready to take away credit from Therrien (Price is the system), and blame him for stuff he is not responsible for (PP woes). And most of the posts I make to defend Therrien are because of that. I couldn't stand the ridiculous misplaced witch hunt that this board had undertaken.

 

[Nynja*]

MT was characterized as a liar, a coward who throws his players under the bus, an idiot, a dinosaur, a guy who plays favourites, a guy who would ruin star players.... just about anything you can think of.

1-Yes, he said Chucky went to him to be taken off C, Chuck said that he never said that, he said he would do "whats best for the team"
2-see Lars Eller, Jiri Sekac
3-Moreso stubborn, but if you consider that people who are stubborn are also idiots, then yes, he always sticks to "da gameplan" no matter what
4-He uses archaic strategies, that makes him a dinosaur
5-see: Cube, Crankshaft, Davey, Ouelette
6-"Make PK da better player"...PK rushes much less with the puck since 2013


However, this season he'd done a better job through 5 games.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I wouldn't say that the dump and chase is gone. There are some lines that still do it alot more than others, namely the plekanec line and the Mitchell line. But I think it suits their style of play so I don't mind it.

Then you have a line like galchenyuk who carry the puck over the blueline basically every chance they get.

So its not gone, there's just more variety to their approach now. I think the management saw the need to change their approach, and they made certain tweaks to the cast in order to execute it successfully.

Still lots of season left though. I'll be interested to see if the team starts reverting to old habits when things aren't going so well.

I think the habs take what they are given and plays within their means. They play the odds.

Basically, if you end up in a position where you have nowhere to go, no one to pass to, you are forced to dump.

The question is if our break out was leading to no man's land too often, and if we used hail Mary stretch passes too much.

Ultimately, there is some level of improvisation and player talent in all of this. You can't enter the zone if you don't have guys who are fast, have skill and know what they're doing defensively. It's just too easy for good teams to deny entry into the zone and create a turnover. And turnovers that result in odd man rushes and breakaways are the best scoring chances. You want to limit those, especially with a goalie like Price who won't be beat on easy shots too often.

And there's also the question whether or not controlled zone entries really results in more scoring chances. What's the point of entering the zone in control of the puck if the other team controls where you go and directs you to the outside and forces you to cough it up without giving you any shooting lanes at any time ? It's not entirely clear that controlled zone entries result in a positive scoring chances for/against ratio. At least with the dump and chase, you know that you have created a chaotic puck battle in deep and there's less chance of a turnover resulting in an odd man rush.

But yes, dump and chase is not the most exciting hockey of all time and controlled zone entries will lead to more aesthetically pleasing plays and those tend to stick in people's mind in a positive way more.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

1-Yes, he said Chucky went to him to be taken off C, Chuck said that he never said that, he said he would do "whats best for the team"
2-see Lars Eller, Jiri Sekac
3-Moreso stubborn, but if you consider that people who are stubborn are also idiots, then yes, he always sticks to "da gameplan" no matter what
4-He uses archaic strategies, that makes him a dinosaur
5-see: Cube, Crankshaft, Davey, Ouelette
6-"Make PK da better player"...PK rushes much less with the puck since 2013


However, this season he'd done a better job through 5 games.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[OnTheRun]

Pointing out flaws is not "hate" even if you tend to take it at a personal level every time someone is critical of Therrien.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

so... it's better to constantly give the puck away when you have less skills ?

Dumping the puck isn't giving the puck away, it's creating a puck battle in the other team's zone. And if you lose that battle, the other team is starting from the furthest possible to your net and everyone on your team has time to prepare to foil the other team's puck possession attempt which gives you a chance at a turnover.

 

[ECWHSWI]

MT was characterized as a liar, a coward who throws his players under the bus, an idiot, a dinosaur, a guy who plays favourites, a guy who would ruin star players.... just about anything you can think of. Just read one of a million posts by LG on the subject... he flat out says he's one of the worst coaches in the league, and he's clearly not alone in this.

Now you're trying to speak for the majority and say he's average ? If he were average, there is no way that this much hate would be directed his way. It would be beyond silly to spend this much time and complain this much about an average coach getting good results and clearly not hindering his team.

You say yourself you can win the cup with an average coach... but we keep hearing that we can't win a cup with MT. Been said time and time again.

In the end, I think you can't speak for everyone, neither can I. I won't attempt to create 2 sides here because I think everyone has a nuanced opinion. But there are many who don't see clearly when it comes to Therrien. Many who want to see him fail, who love to thump their chest and say they were right when the habs lose games and are always ready to take away credit from Therrien (Price is the system), and blame him for stuff he is not responsible for (PP woes). And most of the posts I make to defend Therrien are because of that. I couldn't stand the ridiculous misplaced witch hunt that this board had undertaken.

MT DID lie about Galchenyuk asking to go back at LW
MT DID throw Eller and Sekac under the bus


IF he really was average, he wouldnt get so much defending.


NO EXCUSES.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Dumping the puck isn't giving the puck away, it's creating a puck battle in the other team's zone. And if you lose that battle, the other team is starting from the furthest possible to your net and everyone on your team has time to prepare to foil the other team's puck possession attempt which gives you a chance at a turnover.

what is the success rate of dumb and chase ?

 

[jaffy27]

Well..
PAP..replaced by Semin who is already being benched and skipping shifts. Neither of those guys are grinding style players though.
Prust..replaced by Kassian who's in rehab.
Bournival and Weaver were more extras than regulars. But yes we seemingly upgraded them.
Mitchell is definitely an upgrade over Maholtra.
Petry replaced Gilbert and Gilbert is now in Gonchar's shoes. That's an upgrade as well.
Bottom line though, the only grinder type player we replaced is Prust, and his replacement will likely never play in a Habs jersey.

Eller had a breakout year in 12-13 putting up 30pts in 46gp. Many people thought Therrien would exploit this, he didn't. I mean, he did for 20 games where Eller put up 13pts. But over that stretch, his line was regularly dismantled in order to split more offense. That failed, we stayed with pretty much one line producing the bulk of our offense and Eller got stuck on the 3rd line. Because of that, there has been 2 years of ridiculous debate Eller vs DD, which of them should we focus on for a top 6 role.
We also saw PK take a step back from joining the rush.
Many were also arguing that Galchenyuk should have been used as a center at the latest by last season. It was evident that the center position would benefit him more as it would involve him in more plays, he'd constantly be next to the puck, he'd have more room to create offense and pick up speed, which is what he needed most. Certainly, he's gotten stronger, has another year of experience in the book, but I have no doubt in my mind he would have had a stronger year last season at the center position.

In 12-13, we played the same style and our roster wasn't particularly better than last season or the previous one. Gionta was a dying breed, Bourque was injured and not that great. We had Moen, Armstrong, Bouillon, White, etc. We were more suited to play a grinding game that season but we didn't do it and it lead to go results.
We finished high in the standings, were scoring more than 3G/GP and allowing less than 27 shots/game. We were playing well and dominating our opposition.
So it's not true that we lacked the talent. It was always there. Maybe it wasn't as strong as it is now, but we definitely had it.

Even with Semin being benched for the odd shift, he's a way way better option than PAP and it shows, more times than not, that Galchenyuk, Semin, Eller line is dominating and creating chances galore, you never saw that with PAP.

Galchenyuk-DD-PAP is much weaker than Eller-Galchenyuk-Semin
DLR-Eller-DSP is weaker than Fleishman-DD-Weise (at least offensively)
Prust-Malhotra-Weise is weaker than Flynn-Mitchell-DSP (especially this years DSP)

Their D is also revamped and much better...(same as end of season but this would explain why they were out shooting their opponents in the playoffs as oppose to the beginning of the year when Weaver, Gonchar were everyday D....this is huge....at least we can agree that this years Habs are good and fun to watch

 

[OnTheRun]

Even with Semin being benched for the odd shift, he's a way way better option than PAP and it shows, more times than not, that Galchenyuk, Semin, Eller line is dominating and creating chances galore, you never saw that with PAP.

Galchenyuk-DD-PAP is much weaker than Eller-Galchenyuk-Semin
DLR-Eller-DSP is weaker than Fleishman-DD-Weise (at least offensively)
Prust-Malhotra-Weise is weaker than Flynn-Mitchell-DSP (especially this years DSP)

Their D is also revamped and much better...(same as end of season but this would explain why they were out shooting their opponents in the playoffs as oppose to the beginning of the year when Weaver, Gonchar were everyday D....this is huge....at least we can agree that this years Habs are good and fun to watch

Those line were never a regular thing, neither were Weaver or Gonchar.

Doesn't really matter anyway. We've spent the last 2 years being a reactive team, didn't matter if we were playing the Hawks or the Canes. We would let the Canes dictate the pace of the game then reacted to it, that's not something we've done so far this year.

Still soon, but if keep that up we're finally going somewhere.

 

[Kriss E]

Even with Semin being benched for the odd shift, he's a way way better option than PAP and it shows, more times than not, that Galchenyuk, Semin, Eller line is dominating and creating chances galore, you never saw that with PAP.

Galchenyuk-DD-PAP is much weaker than Eller-Galchenyuk-Semin
DLR-Eller-DSP is weaker than Fleishman-DD-Weise (at least offensively)
Prust-Malhotra-Weise is weaker than Flynn-Mitchell-DSP (especially this years DSP)

Their D is also revamped and much better...(same as end of season but this would explain why they were out shooting their opponents in the playoffs as oppose to the beginning of the year when Weaver, Gonchar were everyday D....this is huge....at least we can agree that this years Habs are good and fun to watch

No doubt about it, after last season, I take Semin over PAP. That's not really the point. What I was getting at is that both are possession guys, not the grinding type.
And yes, the Galch-Semin-Eller are dominating, they also took over DD's line where we would put him with Patches and give them the most offensive zone draws.
We completely changed the roles of the lines and this was something I brought up before. DD was the one we used in that role and it really didn't make any sense. We crippled ourselves by doing so. We had a better center in Galchenyuk that needed to play in that role, and Patches's two way game was wasted on that line.
I had been saying since Patches was placed with Cole and DD that he should be moved next to Plekanec so we can turn a top line who will be able to play in any situation, all zones, vs any opponent and do well.
But we didn't do that. We had him with DD in a role Galchenyuk should have been in.
We had Eller used like a 4th liner in a purely defensive role and wasted any offensive abilities he had. They were rendered useless with the way we used him.

The roles of each line was out of whack. DLR-Eller-DSP was not used at all in the same way DD's line is currently used.

That's not to say we didn't improve, we did, but not to the point where it's an entirely different team that needs a complete overhaul in the system.
We actually made the change last year in the POs. So it's not the addition of Semin or moving Galchenyuk to center. Galch was actually cold and didn't have particularly good POs on the wing, but we still changed our style to a more possessive one and it made us outplay TB at ES.

So ya, we did improve, but we could have stopped the dumping and chasing of pucks a long time ago.

 

[Nynja*]

Dumping the puck isn't giving the puck away, it's creating a puck battle in the other team's zone. And if you lose that battle, the other team is starting from the furthest possible to your net and everyone on your team has time to prepare to foil the other team's puck possession attempt which gives you a chance at a turnover.

Dumping the puck is relinquishing possession of the puck. You may not be giving the puck away, but you arent maintaining possession of it either.

 

[Price is Wright]

NO EXCUSES.

And when it's a player someone likes:

But...
Well...
Actually...
Except...
However...
Yet David Desharnais...

and never NO EXCUSES

 

[Kriss E]

And when it's a player someone likes:

But...
Well...
Actually...
Except...
However...
Yet David Desharnais...

and never NO EXCUSES

Except nobody ever said ''no excuses'' for players. But it just goes to show you how stupid it is. There will always be excuses or reasons. You never lose or play poorly..just because..

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

The only knock I could give at Therrien presently is that he never tried our 2 best players together, Pacioretty and Galchenyuk. 'cause the eye test tells me they are the best Habs forwards.

 

[DAChampion]

I for one am not on the "bandwagon" since I've been thinking along these lines for a while. I've been clear that the team's cup window opened, in my opinion, when the Habs faced the Rangers in the conference finals.

Last year, the Habs were defeated by the superior Tampa Bay Lightning, but it was a close series. The lightning went to the finals. Pacioretty, Eller, Price were probably not 100%.

This year, Semin and Fleischman were added, Kassian may come back later in the year, DSP is in better shape, the core is mostly under 30 and healthy, and the team has cap space and fully-stocked upboard of draft picks with which to acquire a player at the deadline.

The Habs are obviously not guaranteed a cup, but they have a great chance.

 

[Kriss E]

The only knock I could give at Therrien presently is that he never tried our 2 best players together, Pacioretty and Galchenyuk. 'cause the eye test tells me they are the best Habs forwards.

With the current make up of our team, I don't think Galch and Patches should be together. Patches is just a perfect fit next to Plekanec. Those guys can face any opponent and do well, without worrying about which zone you need to start them in.
That's why someone like Vrbata would have been perfect next to Plek. He's another effective player you can throw out there in any situation at ES. That would have opened a spot for Galch to play with Patches instead and they would absolutely own their opposition if we used them as Galch is now.
But for the time being, I think the lines and roles are well spread out.

I for one am not on the "bandwagon" since I've been thinking along these lines for a while. I've been clear that the team's cup window opened, in my opinion, when the Habs faced the Rangers in the conference finals.

Last year, the Habs were defeated by the superior Tampa Bay Lightning, but it was a close series. The lightning went to the finals. Pacioretty, Eller, Price were probably not 100%.

This year, Semin and Fleischman were added, Kassian may come back later in the year, DSP is in better shape, the core is mostly under 30 and healthy, and the team has cap space and fully-stocked upboard of draft picks with which to acquire a player at the deadline.

The Habs are obviously not guaranteed a cup, but they have a great chance.

You're not the only one, but you can give a bit of credit.
I seriously doubt Kassian gets to play a shift of hockey in Mtl. I don't think he plays anywhere this year. Why would anyone take a risk on him after not even being off his problems for a year? That would require a crap load of PR work.

 

[DAChampion]

No, I'm not the only one. There's a range of opinions on this board, and I'm within the range, most of the time.

I can see Kassian coming back later.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Until the PP is fixed, I will say this abouth Therrien...
Same same but different.

The PP needs fixing for sure, but we're playing a better system with better roster mgmt so far. It makes a big difference.

Therrien didn't abandon his gameplans from last seasons, that's ridiculous. He didn't spend his summer reading hfboard experts and learn all of a sudden that to be a good coach all he needed to do was tell the guys to stop dumping and chasing and make better puck possession plays.

I would agree that we do look more aggressive, especially with the defensemen supporting the forwards more when we attack. But outside of that I don't see how the "strategies" have changed.

What has changed is the quality of the roster.

From what I've seen we've definitely changed the way we're playing. Carrying the puck in rather than chip and chase and having better pressure in the other team's zone. That makes a huge difference.

As far as the roster changes go, they've been positive but it's mostly secondary players who've been added. They aren't going to make that kind of a difference. Moreover, the idea that we had to play dump and chase when we had guys like Subban in the lineup makes no sense at all.

Gone are PAP (slow and heartless)
Prust (slow with minimal talent)
Bournival (hands of cement) like the kid, don't like the player
Gonchar (old and slow)
Weaver (minimal talent and old)
Malhotra (old and talentless)

Galchenyuk at center, Petry here from the start, having the best 4th line center in the NHL, a leaner DSP, a leaner Emelin....half of the players I mentioned up top are either retired, are career AHLer's or are probably on last NHL contract (except Prust). Therrien is coaching a much different team, I've said it for a long time, they didn't have the horses, or at least tamed horses to play the kind've hockey we're seeing. I believe moving fwd, this is the type of hockey we'll be witnessing all year and for years to come.

Congrats LG for 30,000 Posts (5 away) .....you're crazy for having that many posts, I'll never hit half of that

Thanks.

Like I said above, fixing the bottom six isn't going to make that dramatic a difference. Moreover we're seeing the top lines playing much better. They are carrying the puck in a lot more like we did in 2013.

I wouldn't say that the dump and chase is gone. There are some lines that still do it alot more than others, namely the plekanec line and the Mitchell line. But I think it suits their style of play so I don't mind it.

Then you have a line like galchenyuk who carry the puck over the blueline basically every chance they get.

So its not gone, there's just more variety to their approach now. I think the management saw the need to change their approach, and they made certain tweaks to the cast in order to execute it successfully.

Still lots of season left though. I'll be interested to see if the team starts reverting to old habits when things aren't going so well.

Dump and chase is part of what any team does. Sometimes it makes sense to do it. But it shouldn't be the default strategy. When you have forwards stationary waiting for a pass so they can chip it in you're going to fail most of the time and that's what we've seen for the past two years.

Whoever thinks a slight change in strategy would have had this much of an impact without the above... or would even have been possible without the above... are the ones who are being foolish.

Its not a slight change in strategy... it's a completely different way of attacking in the offensive zone.

We saw that we had success in 2013 with a lesser team and our numbers dropped dramatically afterwards. We saw with a stacked team in Pittsburgh that it didn't work there either.

We went on many a win streak last year and many of us didn't believe we were the real deal because we could see that it was Price carrying the team. That's not the case now. Now we're actually playing well and winning. That's a huge difference and people are happy to say so. Roster mgmt is better, system is better... so props to the coach.

I always said the day that he goes back to 2013 style of play and smartens up over usage I'd praise him. Well, that's what we've seen so far so good for him.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Folks, I've mentioned this already but please cool it with the fanboy/hater/Kool-Aid stuff. I've deleted a bunch of posts from both sides of the debate here and issued warnings/infractions. If you have an opinion, defend it without attacking other posters.

Thanks!

 

[Milhouse40]

Who are the 2 players who took the most Defensive face off this year?

Plekanec with a giant 44 faceoffs taken good for 2nd in the NHL behind Kyle Turris.
With 29 faceoffs won, he's first in the NHL for the number of faceoffs won in the D-zone

Who's second?

I would've said....well, anybody else than this guy : Alex Galchenyuk.
He took 19 defensive zone faceoffs and surprisingly he got 52.6%.

Kind of weird numbers here....i would've thought Therrien would used the Bottom 6 more for this job. Plekanec is way overused in my book.

Offensive zone starts now....

Plekanec is still leading the team again with with 31
Torrey Mitchell is second with 19
Desharnais with 17
Galchenyuk with 15

Something is really weird with all this.......
But we are winning so....

 

[ColinO]

Who are the 2 players who took the most Defensive face off this year?

Plekanec with a giant 44 faceoffs taken good for 2nd in the NHL behind Kyle Turris.
With 29 faceoffs won, he's first in the NHL for the number of faceoffs won in the D-zone

Who's second?

I would've said....well, anybody else than this guy : Alex Galchenyuk.
He took 19 defensive zone faceoffs and surprisingly he got 52.6%.

Kind of weird numbers here....i would've thought Therrien would used the Bottom 6 more for this job. Plekanec is way overused in my book.

Offensive zone starts now....

Plekanec is still leading the team again with with 31
Torrey Mitchell is second with 19
Desharnais with 17
Galchenyuk with 15

Something is really weird with all this.......
But we are winning so....

Does it make any difference when you factor in the number of faceoffs that Eller has taken instead of Galchenyuk?

 

[Milhouse40]

Does it make any difference when you factor in the number of faceoffs that Eller has taken instead of Galchenyuk?

Eller took 12 offensive zone starts and 9 defensives zone start. Hard to mix them all together since this is the number of all starts and not only 5-on-5 (well, i think since it's the new advanced stats i'm playing with on NHL.com)

Don't really know what to make of all of this since it's a really small sample but that's not the numbers i would've expected.
I thought Mitchell would be more used in the D-zone and less in O-zone....and the other way around for Galchenyuk

 

[SuperUnknown]

Don't really know what to make of all of this since it's a really small sample but that's not the numbers i would've expected.
I thought Mitchell would be more used in the D-zone and less in O-zone....and the other way around for Galchenyuk

I guess it depends on the matchups.

 

[Nynja*]

Don't really know what to make of all of this since it's a really small sample but that's not the numbers i would've expected.
I thought Mitchell would be more used in the D-zone and less in O-zone....and the other way around for Galchenyuk

Maybe he feels Chuck doesnt need to be protected, or he's seeing what he's defensively capable of in the regular season well before the playoffs start and seeing what he's working with.