Therrien - New Season Edition

[jaffy27]

cause you're giving the puck away, you have to "fight" to get a puck you already had before dumping it.

You only give it away if the other team retrieves it...if you have daylight, you skate it in but if you don't, you dump and retrieve as oppose to forcing a play at the blue line, get it intercepted and then having to retrieve it in your own end.

Flynn, Mitchell, Semin, DD with a lesser offensive role and a bigger and stronger Galchenyuk will serve Therrien's system a lot better than Parenteau, Gonchar, Malhotra, Prust, and the Tangradi and Thomas experiments, the season so far has proved this.

He's no Quenville but he ain't a Perron either.

 

[Hoople]

that you'll have to explain to the guy I quoted... cause really, he was whining Gilbert was damn horrible on the PK last PO, yet in the very last game of Habs-PO he still was sent on the ice on the PK (for example)...

as for little changes well, we're still waiting for these little changes on the PP, despite it dropping every season...

First off, Go Habs Go!!

Second, do you put Beaulieu on the PK? Petry?

I'm not going to play your game.

Go Habs Go!!

 

[ColinO]

If the other team didn't constantly outshot and outchanced us, then sure, he would get credit. That wasn't our case though, and disregarding even those two metrics, simply watching the team scramble in our zone repeatedly was enough to question Therrien.
We didn't play a strong defensive system. It was terribly weak. Price had to make 4-5 highlight reel saves almost every game for us to win.

Price obviously deserves a lot of credit. However, a goalie doesn't win the Vezina without a decent defence in front of him. Save% and GAA are team stats and goalie stats as any goalie will tell you. Again - not saying that Price doesn't play a big role. Looking at the playoffs, which is oft described as the only really important time of year, the Habs actually outshot Ottawa and TB by a wide margin. So, if that is the metric, then the Habs were the better team in the playoffs if not the regular season.

 

[Beige Van]

You only give it away if the other team retrieves it...if you have daylight, you skate it in but if you don't, you dump and retrieve as oppose to forcing a play at the blue line, get it intercepted and then having to retrieve it in your own end.

Flynn, Mitchell, Semin, DD with a lesser offensive role and a bigger and stronger Galchenyuk will serve Therrien's system a lot better than Parenteau, Gonchar, Malhotra, Prust, and the Tangradi and Thomas experiments, the season so far has proved this.

He's no Quenville but he ain't a Perron either.

Well, he did finish tied for 14th in Jack Adams voting last year, barely finishing ahead of Randy Carlyle.

 

[habs03]

1- It's not perfect but it's only logical. The more shots you take, the more likely you have the puck. Eventually it will move to possession time, I'm surprised how it has taken so long for it to come out, but I believe they have started doing it.
2- You really need people to explain to you why ridding yourself of possession only to go exert some energy battling to maybe get it back is less effective than simply retaining it??..
Also, cycling the puck around is very different than dumping it. When you cycle the puck, you're just passing it around. You still have possession of it. When you dump it, you get rid of it. It's unavoidable to dump the puck in. When the opposition is in good position or you're going through a line change, you will dump it in because you don't want to risk turning it over and giving up a scoring chance.
There is a massive difference between using it sporadically when forced into it, and using it as the main strategy to enter the zone as we have been doing over the past 2 years. We also dumped it out of the zone very often, which usually gave it right back to the opposition.

We played a more possessive game in the past two games though, hopefully it's a sign of things to come.

1:Likewise I'm surprised its not out already but I have a feeling that teams having a lot more information and possible track exactly possession time yet it doesn't seem to be out in the media.

2:Its not as simply as you make it seems, teams just don't give you their blue line to skate through, so by not dumping it, there are cases of losing possession due to turnovers, and also when done correctly in the right spot with speed makes it that its really not a battle, but your puck.

 

[jaffy27]

so do the opponents, they understand you don't plan on dumping the puck and put on the breaks you know...


so... you think the only two options in hockey are dumping and shooting the puck at opponents pads ???

I would pay money to watch you debate your philosophies with Therrein and Bergevin..

You'd get schooled with a side dish of pride destruction...it would be like the scene in Good Will Hunting when Matt Damon destroys that other dude in the bar with the intellect battle.

Ya, I'm liking my 3-0 Habs just the way they are

 

[ECWHSWI]

Look, you asked for examples of what Therrien does well as a coach. I gave you my answer. You appear to just want an argument. The department of arguments is three doors down. Try there. Cheers.

I'll help you out : some of the trophy are given to be very best player in the entire league. No matter wich position on the ice.

the difference between goalies and forwards/dmen winning said awards is that forwards/dmen can take part in every single aspect of the game, they're involved on offense, on defense... and they can even try to make saves when shots are directed at the net by blocking shots... goalies are NOT involved in the offensive game, they're not involved in the physical aspec t of the game and they have nothing to do with how the game is played defensively...

they do ONE thing : (try to) make saves. they're the equivalent to pitchers in the American League (MLB) who also do ONE thing, pitching.

given that, wich was obvious by the way, can you imagine how great you have to be at doing ONE thing to be considered better than everyone else in the whole league...

not the best player on the team
not the best goalie in the league
the very best player in the whole league.

 

[ColinO]

I'm not an advanced stats expert but it is my understanding that possession time for one game is essentially meaningless so they probably don't really come out with those numbers until there is a reasonable sample size.

 

[Tourist]

At what point does it become the responsibility of the player instead of blame being laid on the coach.

This is an interesting question. I think in hockey the quality of the roster and the individual player's form has far more impact on results and play then the system the coach employs. Generally, when a team does well in the standings and/or in regards to advanced stats, players should get most of the credit and when the team does poorly in those areas, players also (and/or the gm who built the roster) deserve most of the blame.

Most bad aspects about the team's play last season that people in this thread keep blaming Therrien for could be attributed to the players.

Last year the bottom six outside of Eller did practically nothing, we were very thin on young forwards pushing in the minors, we were clearly missing at least one top six player, and half the year we had Gilbert, Gonchar, the bad Emelin, a developing Beaulieu playing important roles on defense. Even with the excellent play of Subban, Pac, Markov etc., that still amounted to pretty average player quality in front of Price, so it should not be surprising that the team played so average. As soon as we got Petry and Beaulieu started settling in, the advanced stats improved, to a point where we had better shot based stats than Ottawa and Tampa in the playoffs. That's not the coach all of a sudden figuring out better zone breakout strategies. Roster improvements are what matters most.

Now, we have Petry for a full year. The fourth line looks much, much better than last year's. Whatever the third line is should have better players than last year's Prust and Sekac. Semin could be that top six player we lacked, and at the very least he seems like a creative puck handler who can help with our puck possession. We have better AHLers pushing at the door too to create some internal competition. Galchenyuk looks like a man compared to last year.

I bet if we stay healthy we'll look better this season and have better possession stats. Some will credit Therrien but to me the improved roster will be the main cause.

 

[ColinO]

I'll help you out : some of the trophy are given to be very best player in the entire league. No matter wich position on the ice.

the difference between goalies and forwards/dmen winning said awards is that forwards/dmen can take part in every single aspect of the game, they're involved on offense, on defense... and they can even try to make saves when shots are directed at the net by blocking shots... goalies are NOT involved in the offensive game, they're not involved in the physical aspec t of the game and they have nothing to do with how the game is played defensively...

they do ONE thing : (try to) make saves. they're the equivalent to pitchers in the American League (MLB) who also do ONE thing, pitching.

given that, wich was obvious by the way, can you imagine how great you have to be at doing ONE thing to be considered better than everyone else in the whole league...

not the best player on the team
not the best goalie in the league
the very best player in the whole league.

Did you realize that, if the Habs had the 10th best goalie in the league, that would result in an extra goal against every 10 games or so? (By the way I'm just throwing out information - not arguing with you. Like I said, that's three doors down.)

 

[quidam1981]

3 games is very small sample, but I like almost everything I saw from the Habs so far, except, of course the awful Power Play. There are a few other things that can be better (and probably will), like Subban's play, for example, but I'm not too worried about them.

The PP, on the other hand, is an incredible mess. It looks like players are overthinking it, not relying on their offensive instincts, and trying to reproduce the X's and O's and, without much success. We rarely seem to be able to gain the zone cleanly. And the drop passes...

 

[ECWHSWI]

Did you realize that, if the Habs had the 10th best goalie in the league, that would result in an extra goal against every 10 games or so? (By the way I'm just throwing out information - not arguing with you. Like I said, that's three doors down.)

they didnt, they had the very best player in the whole league.

 

[ECWHSWI]

This is an interesting question. I think in hockey the quality of the roster and the individual player's form has far more impact on results and play then the system the coach employs. Generally, when a team does well in the standings and/or in regards to advanced stats, players should get most of the credit and when the team does poorly in those areas, players also (and/or the gm who built the roster) deserve most of the blame.

Most bad aspects about the team's play last season that people in this thread keep blaming Therrien for could be attributed to the players.

Last year the bottom six outside of Eller did practically nothing, we were very thin on young forwards pushing in the minors, we were clearly missing at least one top six player, and half the year we had Gilbert, Gonchar, the bad Emelin, a developing Beaulieu playing important roles on defense. Even with the excellent play of Subban, Pac, Markov etc., that still amounted to pretty average player quality in front of Price, so it should not be surprising that the team played so average. As soon as we got Petry and Beaulieu started settling in, the advanced stats improved, to a point where we had better shot based stats than Ottawa and Tampa in the playoffs. That's not the coach all of a sudden figuring out better zone breakout strategies. Roster improvements are what matters most.

Now, we have Petry for a full year. The fourth line looks much, much better than last year's. Whatever the third line is should have better players than last year's Prust and Sekac. Semin could be that top six player we lacked, and at the very least he seems like a creative puck handler who can help with our puck possession. We have better AHLers pushing at the door too to create some internal competition. Galchenyuk looks like a man compared to last year.

I bet if we stay healthy we'll look better this season and have better possession stats. Some will credit Therrien but to me the improved roster will be the main cause.

great first example... who was thrown under the bus in a press conference by the COACH ?? Lars Eller.

 

[jaffy27]

Well, he did finish tied for 14th in Jack Adams voting last year, barely finishing ahead of Randy Carlyle.

Funny you forgot to mention Hitchcock that finished behind Therrien....I get it though, just doesn't make your argument look as good

Cameron finished 6th....you think he belongs there? Ahead of Babcock and Cooper??

 

[Habit11]

I'm not an advanced stats expert but it is my understanding that possession time for one game is essentially meaningless so they probably don't really come out with those numbers until there is a reasonable sample size.

Looking at all of last season the Habs' were below league average at preventing shots and scoring chances. Also below average at generating shots and scoring chances. The margin for error for Price was very slim last season and because he was the best in the league the Habs' benefited big time, especially considering how awful the PP was at giving additional goal support.

Good defensive coaching is what Hitchcock does. Blues have been top 5 in preventing shots every year he has been there. That's what good defensive coaching does, it stifles the oppositions offence. We can't say that Therrien's system has stifled the opposition close to that level over that the last two seasons. His first season however was really good, and many people here were very supportive of him and still wonder why the team doesn't play the way they did in his first year.

We've seen a difference in the last 2 games however (the team also did better in the playoffs compared to their season), and look how easy it's been on Price and Condon. If that trend continues, Therrien should get plenty of credit for the turn around.

 

[jaffy27]

they didnt, they had the very best player in the whole league.

Which would still result in one extra goal every 10 games....

 

[OnTheRun]

Got a few questions advance stats and so forth.

1: it seems like when looking at possession, when is corsi used, and not actually zone time, or puck possession time.

I don't believe shots attempt give the best picture, ex: dmen gets the puck at the off- blue line, he can try a weak shot and get it blocked and go the other way, or he can sometime just throw it around the boards and play the cycle game. If I get it right, according to corsi it shows better "possession numbers" by taking the shot that is going to get blocked in that scenario..

Why do you people always come up with example that doesn't fit in the context of a hockey game?

So you take a weak wrister from the blue line and its blocked, then what? What happen next? the game just stop? the other team take the puck and process to take laps around their own zone for the rest of the game?

It's pretty obvious that your poor play at the blue line is very likely to result in shot attempts AGAINST you.

2: I've read a lot about zone entries, why is dumping the puck in and creating a cycle game seen as the opposite of playing a possession game, I mean to me cycling the puck off the dump in creates a lot of possession time, I remember the Sedins in their prime where great at just cycling the puck down low, same with Corey and Getz. Reason I bring this up is because I remember during the summer a lot of ppl brought up how Thomas should be playing in the bottome 6 this season because he had great possession stats, when in fact, he was useless in that regards, I mean he would always just skating the puck in and take a shot from the outside that would go wide and out of the zone, pretty would do that every game, and got lucky with a great shot once and scored his only NHL goal..

Zone entries have been studied over and over and over, from mathematical model to actual breakdown 1-by-1 to see the result of each zone entry. It's equivalent to arguing the earth is flat at this point.

During the summer a lot of people wanted Thomas in the line up [citation needed]

 

[Rapala]

Funny you forgot to mention Hitchcock that finished behind Therrien....I get it though, just doesn't make your argument look as good

Cameron finished 6th....you think he belongs there? Ahead of Babcock and Cooper??

Hitch was underwhelming by all accounts.
People expect much more from that Blues team.
Cameron benefitted from being last man in and coming from where he did.
Babcock was simply steady and Cooper well I guess his pockets are too full?

But you are right the Jack Adams voting is slightly skewed at best.

 

[Tourist]

great first example... who was thrown under the bus in a press conference by the COACH ?? Lars Eller.

I thought Eller was good last season and the expression "throwing the player under the bus" is IMO exaggerated with regards to the incident I believe you are referring to. But Hab fans are extreme and very sensitive. I understand.

The use of Eller last season was definitely a worthy debate. He's good at the shutdown center role and was used as such by the coach. However, he clearly, at least to me, does have some nice offensive qualities. I feel the coach should have tapped into them more given our offensive woes instead of using him strictly in a defensive role. I like that he is playing with good talent and used on the power play right now.

Anyway, even if Eller was used in a offensive role last year, we would have had to use a player inferior to him at his important role, so overall I think the team would have been only marginally better at best. Now we have a lot more depth up front which gives us flexibility as to how we chose to setup the lines. That's what really matters. Improving the roster.

 

[Nynja*]

Did you realize that, if the Habs had the 10th best goalie in the league, that would result in an extra goal against every 10 games or so? (By the way I'm just throwing out information - not arguing with you. Like I said, that's three doors down.)

And our record in games where we scored one goal or less in regulation was something ridiculous like 13-14-2. Those extra goals against would most likely turn said record into 10-17-2, which is still high. However, instead of 110 points, we finish with 104 points.

 

[ColinO]

And our record in games where we scored one goal or less in regulation was something ridiculous like 13-14-2. Those extra goals against would most likely turn said record into 10-17-2, which is still high. However, instead of 110 points, we finish with 104 points.

Unless the goals that were scored were in games not won or lost by one goal. I wasn't really making much of a point really. Just responding to someone who wanted to argue for the sake of arguing and I didn't want to argue.

 

[Nynja*]

Unless the goals that were scored were in games not won or lost by one goal. I wasn't really making much of a point really. Just responding to someone who wanted to argue for the sake of arguing and I didn't want to argue.

He said "that would account for one extra goal every 10 games" due to the average. We played 29 games where we scored one or less in regulation. That same average says that 3 of those 10 games would fall in the category of games where we scored one goal or less in regulation.

Sorry, there one one flaw though. I only remember the record, I dont remember which games were shutout wins, or went past regulation and were OT/SO wins. Those shutout 1-0 wins could have still potentially been wins past regulation, or would have been granted pity points. But at the same time, its equally likely that some of those game that went past regulation would have been lost in regulation. The premise still stands.

 

[Rapala]

Unless the goals that were scored were in games not won or lost by one goal. I wasn't really making much of a point really. Just responding to someone who wanted to argue for the sake of arguing and I didn't want to argue.

Don't forget the Bruins missed the post season despite having 96 points.
We managed 7 extra points in OT and had zero margin for error particularly on the road.
Everyone and I mean everyone had 96 points gaining a playoff spot early last year.
So far we seem to be a similar team in not being able to put games out of reach when we should.
So perhaps a .010 difference in Save Percentage could smart this year.

 

[Sorinth]

Why do you people always come up with example that doesn't fit in the context of a hockey game?

So you take a weak wrister from the blue line and its blocked, then what? What happen next? the game just stop? the other team take the puck and process to take laps around their own zone for the rest of the game?

It's pretty obvious that your poor play at the blue line is very likely to result in shot attempts AGAINST you.

The bolded needs repeating, if you make a dumb play it's going to hurt your Corsi.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Which would still result in one extra goal every 10 games....

Where are you getting that from? Sorry but it's not true. With the tenth best team save percentage in the league we'd have given up 32 more goals per game on average.

We had the best save percentage in the league. That doesn't really tell the whole story though because Price was by far the best individual goalie in the league. Tokarski played against the weak teams and still only came up with a .910 save percentage. Price finished at .933 but for most of the season was up around .937 and saved our ***** throughout much of the year.

Did you realize that, if the Habs had the 10th best goalie in the league, that would result in an extra goal against every 10 games or so? (By the way I'm just throwing out information - not arguing with you. Like I said, that's three doors down.)

False. If we look at 10th best save team save percentage then we'd give up 32 more goals.

If we had the 10th best starter instead of Price to go with Tokarski it would be even worse.