Therrien - New Season Edition

[OnTheRun]

Defensemen have to play defense on the penalty kill.......do they not?

Blaming the system on the poor showing during the PK makes for good reading. In reality though, Habs D were more often than not out of position. That is on the individual player, not the system.

Either that or Carey Price is overrated.

Which one is it?

The Ds being out of position is a collateral of us swarming in the defensive zone, and yes, this is part of the system.

 

[Rapala]

The Ds being out of position is a collateral of us swarming in the defensive zone, and yes, this is part of the system.

Therrien has never demonstrated much faith in his teams ability to win one on one battles.
It pisses me off sometimes.

 

[Kriss E]

Defensemen have to play defense on the penalty kill.......do they not?

Blaming the system on the poor showing during the PK makes for good reading. In reality though, Habs D were more often than not out of position. That is on the individual player, not the system.

Either that or Carey Price is overrated.

Which one is it?

Not just your Defensemen. Your whole 4 man unit is playing defense. If they're constantly out of position, it's for a reason. They don't magically decide to go out of position. It's happening because the opposition is moving the puck around effectively and causing confusion. It's up to the coach to fix that issue. If you think it's the players that are being deployed, then you change them.
And if our guys were as terrible as you say then they would have struggled just as much at ES leading to more goals against.

Special teams was a coaching issue. We had no answer for either the PP or PK.

 

[TheBlindFan]

in wich aspect of the game you think he is good ?

I cannot say I am expert, but It less he keep the players together, so Is leadership is good. It easier to get that by winning. Here it's :

No clear leader with a lot of leader is catastrophic...
If the leader isn't good, it catastrophic...

we aren't on any of these situations so we are winning a lot more then losing.

There clearly a system there, and when win more then we lost (who ever is the goaler). Corsi stats (some metric) tell it's bad, but we still win so ... corsi is not about shot quality (result... goal), only on shot quantity (attend to do it). So imagine that the system prevent to get goal... which is what the system is all about.

 

[Hoople]

The Ds being out of position is a collateral of us swarming in the defensive zone, and yes, this is part of the system.

At what point does it become the responsibility of the player instead of blame being laid on the coach.

Therrien has his faults. His reluctance to change our approach to the PP is annoying. However, with that said, our defensive breakdowns against Tampa lies squarely on the shoulders of our DMen.

Too often they were making mistakes that you would expect to see at the beginning of the season instead of playing in a series to advance to the Stanley Cup finals.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

At what point does it become the responsibility of the player instead of blame being laid on the coach.

Therrien has his faults. His reluctance to change our approach to the PP is annoying. However, with that said, our defensive breakdowns against Tampa lies squarely on the shoulders of our DMen.

Too often they were making mistakes that you would expect to see at the beginning of the season instead of playing in a series to advance to the Stanley Cup finals.

Great question.

My answer would be that I blame him for instituting a bad system and for poor roster management. The chip and chase isn't effective. Playing worse players over better ones isn't effective. Encouraging "grinding" play from players like Galchenyuk isn't effective... that's what's hurt us the most and that's what I blame him for. If a player fails to execute on a play its on the player.

For all the talk about this team having a lack of talent up front, this is the same guy who had the Pens 30th in shots and out of the playoffs when he was fired. That's what happened wherever he's been so it's not surprising that it's happening now.

Anyways, I'll wait and see what happens the rest of this year. Somebody mentioned there would be less of an emphasis on grinding play this year. No link was provided so I don't know if that's true. If it is though, I will welcome it with open arms. We'll see.

 

[OnTheRun]

At what point does it become the responsibility of the player instead of blame being laid on the coach.

Therrien has his faults. His reluctance to change our approach to the PP is annoying. However, with that said, our defensive breakdowns against Tampa lies squarely on the shoulders of our DMen.

Too often they were making mistakes that you would expect to see at the beginning of the season instead of playing in a series to advance to the Stanley Cup finals.

So you want to blame the players for... following directives?

There is an inerrant flaw with swarming, if you can't regain control of the puck, you are out of position and if you are out of position one or more players are alone in front of your net.

Hockey IS a game of mistake, mistakes WILL happen, and often its not about how many mistake you make but how costly they are. Swarming tend to make you pay dearly for your mistakes.

 

[Hoople]

So you want to blame the players for... following directives?

There is an inerrant flaw with swarming, if you can't regain control of the puck, you are out of position and if you are out of position one or more players are alone in front of your net.

Hockey IS a game of mistake, mistakes WILL happen, and often its not about how many mistake you make but how costly they are. Swarming tend to make you pay dearly for your mistakes.

Go back and watch videos of some of the goals scored against the Habs.

There were no directives issued for that type of play. That was just poor defensive play.

 

[TheBlindFan]

Great question.

My answer would be that I blame him for instituting a bad system and for poor roster management. The chip and chase isn't effective. Playing worse players over better ones isn't effective. Encouraging "grinding" play from players like Galchenyuk isn't effective... that's what's hurt us the most and that's what I blame him for. If a player fails to execute on a play its on the player.

For all the talk about this team having a lack of talent up front, this is the same guy who had the Pens 30th in shots and out of the playoffs when he was fired. That's what happened wherever he's been so it's not surprising that it's happening now.

Anyways, I'll wait and see what happens the rest of this year. Somebody mentioned there would be less of an emphasis on grinding play this year. No link was provided so I don't know if that's true. If it is though, I will welcome it with open arms. We'll see.

What you're not getting, it's not a grinder game... And he is letting playing like Subban, patch en galchenyuk playing their games IF the RISK worst it.

EGG line was dismental it cause it wasn't working anymore... (work for 4 game... just 4 game, the rest was bad), last season Galchenyuk was back as a LW cause is start to be bad at this position.... for like 10 games... Galchenyuk was not very good from january till this camp to said the truth. Eller start to be good at def (and faceoff) LAST season... not 3 years ago. When he was try had=s LW with elite players last season, he was plaing like he doesn't want to be there... this sesson... he seem to want to... Thing evolve, thank it is!

Therrien work with what he is at that moment, not on potential not on what people think he has. That what I'm thinking about him and is jugement.

 

[OnTheRun]

Go back and watch videos of some of the goals scored against the Habs.

There were no directives issued for that type of play. That was just poor defensive play.

If you are to deny the fact that we are swarming every game multiple time per game, then let's just move on. Nothing I can do for you here other than patting your unicorn and telling you nice ride bro.

 

[Kriss E]

Go back and watch videos of some of the goals scored against the Habs.

There were no directives issued for that type of play. That was just poor defensive play.

Again, if what you are saying is true, then it would have happened at ES as well. We outplayed TB at ES, or at least, it was very even. The fact we allowed as many PP goals and did well at ES shows that there were issues with the PK that we couldn't fix.
It was a systemic problem.

 

[Hoople]

If you are to deny the fact that we are swarming every game multiple time per game, then let's just move on. Nothing I can do for you here other than patting your unicorn and telling you nice ride bro.

All I asked you to do was to watch the videos from last playoffs.

 

[Nynja*]

All I asked you to do was to watch the videos from last playoffs.

Same poor defensive play that was present all season long...thats not poor defensive play, thats da gameplan.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I cannot say I am expert, but It less he keep the players together, so Is leadership is good. It easier to get that by winning. Here it's :

No clear leader with a lot of leader is catastrophic...
If the leader isn't good, it catastrophic...

we aren't on any of these situations so we are winning a lot more then losing.

There clearly a system there, and when win more then we lost (who ever is the goaler). Corsi stats (some metric) tell it's bad, but we still win so ... corsi is not about shot quality (result... goal), only on shot quantity (attend to do it). So imagine that the system prevent to get goal... which is what the system is all about.

when I asked you wich aspects of the game the coach is good at, you name ONE thing, that's it...

 

[ECWHSWI]

Same poor defensive play that was present all season long...thats not poor defensive play, thats da gameplan.

you clearly dont get it. according to the guy you're quoting, Gilbert was atrocious on the PK all PO long... but the fact he was sent on pretty much every PK last PO is NOT on the coaching staff, at all.

 

[Deluded Puck]

Therrien is fundamentally flawed in his tactical approach; but you can't deny he's helped to harness a good atmosphere in the locker room, any potential bad apples have been shipped out quite ruthlessly.

 

[Rapala]

Therrien is fundamentally flawed in his tactical approach; but you can't deny he's helped to harness a good atmosphere in the locker room, any potential bad apples have been shipped out quite ruthlessly.

We gave him that two years ago but have outgrown his usefulness.
We are no longer a bubble team yet he continues to coach us like we are.
He needs to adapt to a new set of realities which should have him laying the groundwork for a strong post season. Instead he uses a style of play that is best (in his mind) for amassing points which is not the same thing at all. A style of play that is needlessly taxing on our players and one he certainly won't be using in the playoffs.

 

[TheBlindFan]

We gave him that two years ago but have outgrown his usefulness.
We are no longer a bubble team yet he continues to coach us like we are.
He needs to adapt to a new set of realities which should have him laying the groundwork for a strong post season. Instead he uses a style of play that is best (in his mind) for amassing points which is not the same thing at all. A style of play that is needlessly taxing on our players and one he certainly won't be using in the playoffs.

Most of the narrative around is "clear flaw" are about what the poster would do with the lines and on some kind of untap potential of some players. I'm pretty sure he is better equip to make is own judgement.... I cannot understand how people can speak about a career hockey professional and think they can credibility say he is bad had almost everything... That the main flaw in most argument here. Black and black against therrien, white and white for price galch and eller.

And this po style adjustment... In the playoff we only plays against good team a less 4 time each and their is less penalties. Against Tampa and ottawa, we corsi win them... So the system was not the problem, neither the players effort... It was the capacity to put it in the goal... Is it the lack of luck? Of talent? What it isn't , coaches fault...

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

Most of the narrative around is "clear flaw" are about what the poster would do with the lines and on some kind of untap potential of some players. I'm pretty sure he is better equip to make is own judgement.... I cannot understand how people can speak about a career hockey professional and think they can credibility say he is bad had almost everything... That the main flaw in most argument here. Black and black against therrien, white and white for price galch and eller.

And this po style adjustment... In the playoff we only plays against good team a less 4 time each and their is less penalties. Against Tampa and ottawa, we corsi win them... So the system was not the problem, neither the players effort... It was the capacity to put it in the goal... Is it the lack of luck? Of talent? What it isn't , coaches fault...

Why bother, this place has lost the grip it had, years ago.

Now it's only black or white, with barely any points to discuss whatsoever. No one is going to change their opinions, no one is going to admit they were / are / maybe will be wrong.

Myself ? I think MT is doing fairly good. Not perfect, but definitely not as bad as his predecessors.

And when you ask them who would you replace MT with, you get Guy Boucher as answer, a guy who'd put a defense first system on an offensive powerhouse like the TB Lightning.

MT has instilled a no excuses approach and commitment to the team and got rid of bad apples a priority, and then a defense first system that minimizes turnovers, gets good results on the shoulders of his goalie and best players, and gets blamed for everything and anything. As if the arguers have anything to grip on. Not even advanced stats in this early season. But whatever, HFboards will be HFboards.

FYI I'm pragmatic in most of my opinions and I will believe in what turns games into points in the standings, no matter how bad it looks like. Sure I'd like to see exciting highly skilled hockey clinics, but I CAN'T expect that when our top 6 probems haven't been fully addressed (and some with gigantic question marks) and our toughness is still left to be desired. Also, I don't expect this team to beat the best teams in the Playoffs, but I will blame MB instead, again.

 

[Kriss E]

Most of the narrative around is "clear flaw" are about what the poster would do with the lines and on some kind of untap potential of some players. I'm pretty sure he is better equip to make is own judgement.... I cannot understand how people can speak about a career hockey professional and think they can credibility say he is bad had almost everything... That the main flaw in most argument here. Black and black against therrien, white and white for price galch and eller.

If that's what you believe, then why are you even posting here?? Whatever decision is taking by the management, well, they must know better right, they're the pros!..
So...why are you here posting?? That's a terrible argument that has no place on a message board.

And this po style adjustment... In the playoff we only plays against good team a less 4 time each and their is less penalties. Against Tampa and ottawa, we corsi win them... So the system was not the problem, neither the players effort... It was the capacity to put it in the goal... Is it the lack of luck? Of talent? What it isn't , coaches fault...

We lost in the POs because we couldn't adapt to the Special Teams. We outscored TB 11-9 in the POs at Even Strength. We also outshot and outchanced them.
We won the ES battle.
We lost because we couldn't buy a goal on the PP and we couldn't stop TB on our PK.
That's a coaching issue. If you can't adapt, that's on the coach. TB destroyed us on the PP.

 

[ColinO]

We lost in the POs because we couldn't adapt to the Special Teams. We outscored TB 11-9 in the POs at Even Strength. We also outshot and outchanced them.
We won the ES battle.
We lost because we couldn't buy a goal on the PP and we couldn't stop TB on our PK.
That's a coaching issue. If you can't adapt, that's on the coach. TB destroyed us on the PP.

Would you not agree that:
1. We won the ES battle - that's a +ve on the coach;
2. We lost the PP and PK battle - that's a -ve on the coach.

It seems to me that the fact that we won the ES battle against a team which was arguably more talented is a pretty good argument that the coach did a good job in that department.
That we lost the special teams battle should allow some optimism. That's an issue that should be easier to resolve than it has been. I'm pretty perplexed as to why it has not been resolved but am hoping for the best this year.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Hockey is much more a mental game than a system game.A mental edge is significantly more important than a systemic one, and Therrien is proving himself as a great leader since 2012.

He's handling the group of players with a ''main de maître'', giving us a edge over most teams that no X's and O's can provide.Team chemistry is the single most important thing after talent.If you look at all the championship teams in history, they used vastly different systems.But two things they all had in common was great chemistry and talent.

I believe we have or almost have the necessary talent to win the Stanley Cup, especially now that our true core players (Pacioretty, Subban, Price) are in their absolute prime.The chemistry is outstanding on this team.I don't think I ever saw such a great one, maybe in the early 90s but even then it's debatable.

Therrien has played a huge part in that chemistry.He is the uncontested leader of this squad since 2012, and has used an intelligent balance of authority/room-to-maneuver.He handled Subban very well in particular, which nobody ever mentions.We don't see it now because everything turned out fine, but Subban was a very difficult player to manage as he was still developping into the superstar he is today.Things could have went ugly.

Therrien inspires and imposes respect and his key players respect him.This will end one day, to many poster's happiness, but as long as it works Therrien is a great coach for us.

 

[Kriss E]

Why bother, this place has lost the grip it had, years ago.

Now it's only black or white, with barely any points to discuss whatsoever. No one is going to change their opinions, no one is going to admit they were / are / maybe will be wrong.

Maybe it's because the arguments like ''da record'' or ''leadership'' aren't strong enough to outdo the lack of structure in our game, the over reliance of Price, the fact we are often chasing the puck in our zone and give up our blueline repeatedly, the 2 year PP failure, the insistence of keeping DD at center on top 2 while we drafted a big skilled center and the GM repeatedly said he was drafted to play center, etc...
You know, maybe you should look at your arguments because they're lacking. And when all those things are brought up, instead of actually recognizing them you rather believe that Therrien is telling them one thing but it's the players who are poorly executing, for 2 years. Right, that makes so much more sense...
What's funny is that you think this actually works in Therrien's favor. It's even worse if he's been telling the team to play one way and they've failed to deliver for 2 years.

Myself ? I think MT is doing fairly good. Not perfect, but definitely not as bad as his predecessors.

Easy to do better than RC. I disagree about Martin though. Maybe go back and check Martin's teams. Price was nowhere as good as today, neither was Patches, in his time here he never had a #1 Dman let alone 2 like Therrien has had. And his team was constantly injured. It's remarkable what he did what that roster.
Games were quite boring, just like they have been the past two years, on that front there isn't much difference.

And when you ask them who would you replace MT with, you get Guy Boucher as answer, a guy who'd put a defense first system on an offensive powerhouse like the TB Lightning.

Powerhouse??
His team was terrible. Sure, he had St-Louis and Stamkos. Lecavalier and Malone had started their decline though and were often injured. The rest..he had MAB and Gervais both on defense. Mathieu Garon was his starting goaltender. The guy had terrible teams in TB.
As for his style, I didn't watch enough TB games to actually know what he was preaching. What I do know though, is that he was on the radio every friday with Tony after his firing and when he was discussing things he made it a point to say that you can't be a coach for one system. You're the coach of a team that will change and you need to adapt your style according to your players.
Hearing discuss hockey was very refreshing.

MT has instilled a no excuses approach and commitment to the team and got rid of bad apples a priority, and then a defense first system that minimizes turnovers, gets good results on the shoulders of his goalie and best players, and gets blamed for everything and anything. As if the arguers have anything to grip on. Not even advanced stats in this early season. But whatever, HFboards will be HFboards.

Minimizes turnovers? We were 5th in the NHL in them last season. We were middle of the pack the year prior. This no excuse idea is bull crap. All we hear after losing are excuses, and he's great at blaming his players for not executing. It's never his fault. Always the players. He never says, we couldn't adapt to their game or anything like that. Nope. Always a lack of execution. He must have some of the least attentive players in the NHL, except of course, we know that's not true at all.

I'm glad you brought up this year though. In the last two games, do you think we played the same way we did in the previous two years?? No, we didn't. We're more aggressive, drive the play more, control and possess the puck more, which are a lot of things people wanted. Those games also happened to be more entertaining and Price wasn't left alone. If we play that way all season, Therrien won't be criticized nearly as much.

FYI I'm pragmatic in most of my opinions and I will believe in what turns games into points in the standings, no matter how bad it looks like. Sure I'd like to see exciting highly skilled hockey clinics, but I CAN'T expect that when our top 6 probems haven't been fully addressed (and some with gigantic question marks) and our toughness is still left to be desired. Also, I don't expect this team to beat the best teams in the Playoffs, but I will blame MB instead, again.

It's not about your top 6 man. People have forgotten what entertaining hockey is that they think you need to have some of the best group of players in order to do so. It's ridiculous. Certainly, it'll be more entertaining if you have some incredibly skilled guys playing, but it's not like we have a bottom feeding group.
Our team is more than skilled enough to play an exciting brand of hockey.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Hockey is much more a mental game than a system game.A mental edge is significantly more important than a systemic one, and Therrien is proving himself as a great leader since 2012.

He's handling the group of players with a ''main de maître'', giving us a edge over most teams that no X's and O's can provide.Team chemistry is the single most important thing after talent.If you look at all the championship teams in history, they used vastly different systems.But two things they all had in common was great chemistry and talent.

I believe we have or almost have the necessary talent to win the Stanley Cup, especially now that our true core players (Pacioretty, Subban, Price) are in their absolute prime.The chemistry is outstanding on this team.I don't think I ever saw such a great one, maybe in the early 90s but even then it's debatable.

Therrien has played a huge part in that chemistry.He is the uncontested leader of this squad since 2012, and has used an intelligent balance of authority/room-to-maneuver.He handled Subban very well in particular, which nobody ever mentions.We don't see it now because everything turned out fine, but Subban was a very difficult player to manage as he was still developping into the superstar he is today.Things could have went ugly.

would be great if you could back-up the bolded claims of yours.

 

[Kriss E]

Would you not agree that:
1. We won the ES battle - that's a +ve on the coach;
2. We lost the PP and PK battle - that's a -ve on the coach.

It seems to me that the fact that we won the ES battle against a team which was arguably more talented is a pretty good argument that the coach did a good job in that department.
That we lost the special teams battle should allow some optimism. That's an issue that should be easier to resolve than it has been. I'm pretty perplexed as to why it has not been resolved but am hoping for the best this year.

I have no problem with that. I even gave Therrien kudos last year when I heard he was working on offensive puck possession drills during their break between the Ottawa and TB series.