Therrien - New Season Edition

[Lafleurs Guy]

Once again a bunch of impossible-to-satisfy people criticizing Therrien at every opportunity even though he's easily one of the best coach in the NHL and is in his coaching prime.Therrien's strenght is about his pure leadership skills, which is evident by how freaking amazing the chemistry on this team has been ever since he got here.Since Therrien arrived our team might not be the most talented but you ought to be confident in any close game, we win those more often than not.We have a great competitive spirit.The vast majority of intuitive moves he made paid off.He's in total control and on top of his game.It's incredible that anyone would think another coach would do better.Odds are if we had another coach he would have a worst record than Therrien, and no more playoff success.

If the team's chemistry were great, wouldn't we have expected them to play better?

What intuitive moves have paid off? Holding back Galchenyuk and Beau? Playing Cube on the PP? Having DD as our number one? Please explain what you mean here?

Not sure why you'd think it's incredible that most posters would think we'd be better off with another coach when we're regularly bottom third everywhere despite having a good roster...

He's not perfect but he has done an amazing job.It's not just about Carey Price, the team is very competitive in front of him.Having Carey Price is a blessing, but so is having Kane, Toews and Keith, or Crosby and Malkin, or whatever.You don't win if you don't have the guns.Therrien did great with the guns he had and continue to do so.

Seriously, when was the last time we had a better coach than Therrien?

Here's how the list went:

Michel Therrien (Now)
Randy Cunneyworth (Worst)
Jacques Martin (Worst and I might prefer to lose than re-watch that hockey)
Bob Gainey (Worst)
Guy Carbonneau (Worst)

Having a list of bad coaches doesn't make MT any better. And I'd take both Gainey and Martin over Therrien in a heartbeat.

Then we get to the Claude Julien, Michel Therrien and Alain Vigneault trio.All three were worst than present-day Therrien, Julien wasn't the experienced Boston coach he is today, and same with Vigneault.They were rookie coaches, clearly worst than 2015 Therrien who is much better than he was the first time around as well.

Both Vigneault and Julien got better play out of their teams (signifcantly better) than Therrien did. Therrien had a great season from Theo to save his ass, that's the only thing we had going for us when he was coach.

Then Mario Tremblay (Worst)

Then Jacques Demers and Pat Burns, which as of now I consider better than Therrien.

So Therrien in my opinion is pretty much up there as one of the best coach we had in a long time (since 1995 when Demers was fired, so 20 years ago).

And to conclude, changing the coach none-stop and asking for his head is a poor way of managing your club.Keep the stability, let the coach be comfortable enough in his seat, let him work long-term with some players, let the players know he has actual power.I hope Therrien stays for the remaining of our window to win a cup.

Edit: I checked quickly and apparently no coach since Scotty Bowman stayed with us for 5 consecutive seasons (even if we include the seasons where the coach is hired/fired).That's a ridiculous testament of instability.Therrien might be on his way if he stays next year.

Well, I've got to agree with you on that one.

Anyways, good start to the year. That's definitely something to be happy about. I'm also happy that we're in arguably the weakest division in the league so that will help. But unless we change our style of play, we're going to be needlessly handicapping ourselves for a cup run. Therrien has had one good season with us - 2013. If we went back to the style we'd be in good shape. He's shown he can do it, so let's hope he goes back to it because we'll be better off.

Let us pray.

 

[habs03]

Seems like Mtl has been winning the corsi battle lately, when that happened most people here said it was the players deciding to take things into their own hand, and rebelling vs da system...

Is this happening now too?

 

[Nynja*]

Seems like Mtl has been winning the corsi battle lately, when that happened most people here said it was the players deciding to take things into their own hand, and rebelling vs da system...

Is this happening now too?

Or, you know, the management and coaches had a discussion and decided to play a more aggressive style in 2016

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Seems like Mtl has been winning the corsi battle lately, when that happened most people here said it was the players deciding to take things into their own hand, and rebelling vs da system...

Is this happening now too?

I think we need more than a three game sample size against bottom feeders to know how well we'll do. Nice that we started 3-0 though.

Or, you know, the management and coaches had a discussion and decided to play a more aggressive style in 2016

If this is the case and we do away with dump and chase while going back to 2013 then that's a totally different story. If Therrien were to smarten up then we'd be in great shape and folks won't criticize him nearly as much.

As I said above though, I think we need more than 3 games against bad teams to see this though.

 

[Apoplectic Habs Fan]

Seems like Mtl has been winning the corsi battle lately, when that happened most people here said it was the players deciding to take things into their own hand, and rebelling vs da system...

Is this happening now too?

More likely to do with MTL playing two lottery pick teams and one fringe playoff team

 

[Hoople]

If the team's chemistry were great, wouldn't we have expected them to play better?

What intuitive moves have paid off? Holding back Galchenyuk and Beau? Playing Cube on the PP? Having DD as our number one? Please explain what you mean here?

Not sure why you'd think it's incredible that most posters would think we'd be better off with another coach when we're regularly bottom third everywhere despite having a good roster...

Having a list of bad coaches doesn't make MT any better. And I'd take both Gainey and Martin over Therrien in a heartbeat.

Both Vigneault and Julien got better play out of their teams (signifcantly better) than Therrien did. Therrien had a great season from Theo to save his ass, that's the only thing we had going for us when he was coach.

Well, I've got to agree with you on that one.

Anyways, good start to the year. That's definitely something to be happy about. I'm also happy that we're in arguably the weakest division in the league so that will help. But unless we change our style of play, we're going to be needlessly handicapping ourselves for a cup run. Therrien has had one good season with us - 2013. If we went back to the style we'd be in good shape. He's shown he can do it, so let's hope he goes back to it because we'll be better off.

Let us pray.

(mod)

It appears that the biggest disconnect regarding last season's playoffs failure against the Bolts is that a lot of people are unwilling to state the obvious....that Subban and Markov played like **** on defense in front of Price. It also hurt that Gilbert played poorly on the PK and Emelin was less than stellar.

But the easy meme is to look past and ignore reality and blame Therrien instead.

 

[Miller Time]

It appears that the biggest disconnect regarding last season's playoffs failure against the Bolts is that a lot of people are unwilling to state the obvious....that Subban and Markov played like **** on defense in front of Price. It also hurt that Gilbert played poorly on the PK and Emelin was less than stellar.

But the easy meme is to look past and ignore reality and blame Therrien instead.

- would not agree that PK played like****.
- Do you think there is any correlation btw Markov fading badly at the end of the year, and his high usage all season (while Beaulieu/Pateryn/Tinordi were used sparingly/given few opportunities to play into more consistent role)?

it also hurt that our PP was abysmal
it also hurt that Desharnais was overused, while Galch/Eller/Weise were performing better but deployed less effectively
it also hurt that Price was battling an undisclosed injury in that round
it also hurt that the bolts were more opportunistic finishers that series
et.et.et

it's not a question of blaming Therrien single-handedly for the playoff exit or the poor fundamentals of the teams play, in the end the players on the ice do determine the final outcome.

The issue is that the Coach is responsible for putting the team in teh best possible position to succeed. Both by in-game management but also in building effective systems of play that maximize the teams strentgths.

many of us don't feel that Therrien does this. The arguments and facts to back that pov up have been repeated ad nauseum. On the flip side, the narrative in favour of Therrien seems to rely exclusively on "DaRecord"... which for seemingly obvious reasons is not a particularly strong way to evaluate a given coaches effectiveness short of a cup ring to show for it (and even then, Jean Perron has a cup ring...)

 

[OnTheRun]

It appears that the biggest disconnect regarding last season's playoffs failure against the Bolts is that a lot of people are unwilling to state the obvious....that Subban and Markov played like **** on defense in front of Price. It also hurt that Gilbert played poorly on the PK and Emelin was less than stellar.

But the easy meme is to look past and ignore reality and blame Therrien instead.

Talk about disconnect indeed...

Our SV% went down by 1 point, you're stretching it by blaming the Ds for our shortcomings.

During the POs, as soon the Hackburglar was out of the picture our SH% went down the drain. We went from 9.1% in regular season to 5.6%. Our PDO took a whooping 6 points hit. And the formula that allowed our regular season success was broken, (Price stands on his head --> We score a timely goal --> Win) We failed to score the timely goal and we went 3-6 and out during that time span.

And this is why relying on something unusually high to win is not the way to go.
Maybe they learned their lessons, maybe not, we'll see...

 

[Rapala]

Or, you know, the management and coaches had a discussion and decided to play a more aggressive style in 2016

So I have to wait until Jan 1 for the unveiling?
Hmmm isn't that when Emelin's NTC kicks?

 

[TheBlindFan]

That's the biggest reason why some posters aren't taken seriously. If they want to back up Therrien, that's fine, there actually is some arguments to use in his favor like work ethic, intensity and seemingly getting all the guys to buy into their ideas with everyone pushing together. But they don't even use those arguments.

I my point of view, it hard to take the eternal bashing on Therrien since he is hab coatch again.

To make him bad, people take there own opinion on what he should do and if he doesn't he is bad.

Galch at center, EGG line, Bouillon, DD TOI, Eller is so under and wrongly used... on and on

90% of the medias, hockey analysis, players need to be liar to make the bashing worthed.

Hockey is about winning, we been calling for a disaster since the last 3 years, come one guys! IT NOT APPENING !!! 3 years... The "only winning the cup worth anything" don't work... We are closing of win the cup but winning by the way

 

[Hoople]

Talk about disconnect indeed...

Our SV% went down by 1 point, you're stretching it by blaming the Ds for our shortcomings.

During the POs, as soon the Hackburglar was out of the picture our SH% went down the drain. We went from 9.1% in regular season to 5.6%. Our PDO took a whooping 6 points hit. And the formula that allowed our regular season success was broken, (Price stands on his head --> We score a timely goal --> Win) We failed to score the timely goal and we went 3-6 and out during that time span.

And this is why relying on something unusually high to win is not the way to go.
Maybe they learned their lessons, maybe not, we'll see...

The Habs scored the exact same number of goals against the Bolts that the Black Hawks did. One team was eliminated by the Bolts. One team won a Cup against the Bolts.

Chicago's defense men "individually" played far and away better defense than the Habs did. I could pull up videos from that series last season that showed our DMen too often playing out of position and allowing easy goals However, I know that would not change any opinions. It's too easy to follow along with the Blame Therrien bandwagon.

 

[Rapala]

The Habs scored the exact same number of goals against the Bolts that the Black Hawks did. One team was eliminated by the Bolts. One team won a Cup against the Bolts.

Chicago's defense men "individually" played far and away better defense than the Habs did. I could pull up videos from that series last season that showed our DMen too often playing out of position and allowing easy goals However, I know that would not change any opinions. It's too easy to follow along with the Blame Therrien bandwagon.

Amazingly enough Chicago did it with basically four D.
An aging Markov and a limited Emelin can't compete at that level.

 

[Hoople]

Amazingly enough Chicago did it with basically four D.
An aging Markov and a limited Emelin can't compete at that level.

I agree. Now we are getting to a coversation as to why the Habs did not do do well. Throw in PK Subban who performed well below his defensive capabilities and then add in Gilbert getting lit up on the penalty kill and there is the answer.

And it isn't Therrien.

 

[OnTheRun]

The Habs scored the exact same number of goals against the Bolts that the Black Hawks did. One team was eliminated by the Bolts. One team won a Cup against the Bolts.

Chicago's defense men "individually" played far and away better defense than the Habs did. I could pull up videos from that series last season that showed our DMen too often playing out of position and allowing easy goals However, I know that would not change any opinions. It's too easy to follow along with the Blame Therrien bandwagon.

Brillant!

We scored ~50% of our goal against the Bolts IN ONE ****ING GAME.

(mod)

 

[Hoople]

Brillant!

We scored ~50% of our goal against the Bolts IN ONE ****ING GAME.

Density of this magnitude is not found naturally in the wild, so stop doing it on purpose.

(mod)

This is not a trick question so dont ponder on it too long...

Did the Bolts score more goals than us in the games they won? And, were the Habs DMen on the ice when that happened?

 

[Nynja*]

Hes used to using flawed numbers to make his point though.

 

[OnTheRun]

That escalated quickly.

This is not a trick question so dont ponder on it too long...

Did the Bolts score more goals than us in the games they won? And, were the Habs DMen on the ice when that happened?

Well of course they did, score differential is what allows you to win game.

Now go back to what I said earlier, all season long, that "timely goal" was something that allowed us to get away with the win, something we weren't able to do in this series and ultimately thats what made the difference. By itself most of the series was a low-scoring 1 goal game.

Maybe we were just "unlucky" or its simply the odds catching up to us. But it's very hard to be sympathetic here since we played like garbage for most of the year systematically refusing to fix anything because we were winning.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I agree. Now we are getting to a coversation as to why the Habs did not do do well. Throw in PK Subban who performed well below his defensive capabilities and then add in Gilbert getting lit up on the penalty kill and there is the answer.

And it isn't Therrien.

based on what ?

 

[Kriss E]

I my point of view, it hard to take the eternal bashing on Therrien since he is hab coatch again.

To make him bad, people take there own opinion on what he should do and if he doesn't he is bad.

Galch at center, EGG line, Bouillon, DD TOI, Eller is so under and wrongly used... on and on

90% of the medias, hockey analysis, players need to be liar to make the bashing worthed.

Hockey is about winning, we been calling for a disaster since the last 3 years, come one guys! IT NOT APPENING !!! 3 years... The "only winning the cup worth anything" don't work... We are closing of win the cup but winning by the way

Yes, hockey is about winning. This thread isn't about hockey, it's about a coach. There's a difference. If you don't want to discuss the coach, then why open the thread?..

As for people critical of Therrien, it started 2 years ago, as we played way less aggressive than the previous season. In his first year back, people were actually praising Therrien and saying it seems he's changed. The same posters that are critical of him were giving him kudos.
So, what happened? Did they magically decide to start being critical for the sake of it? Of course not.
They watched the games, they noticed a change in the system, they saw a lot of breakdowns happening and it continued for 2 years so it makes no sense that it's from a poor execution of the strong structured system. Bench management and the PP have also been weak. Then they look at the underlying metrics, and they see that it reflects exactly what they see.

Right now, we played well the past two games and if we keep playing like this, you'll see the posters be way less critical and probably even give credit.

 

[Kriss E]

The Habs scored the exact same number of goals against the Bolts that the Black Hawks did. One team was eliminated by the Bolts. One team won a Cup against the Bolts.

Chicago's defense men "individually" played far and away better defense than the Habs did. I could pull up videos from that series last season that showed our DMen too often playing out of position and allowing easy goals However, I know that would not change any opinions. It's too easy to follow along with the Blame Therrien bandwagon.

We lost to TB because of special teams. We couldn't stop their PP, we couldn't buy a goal on ours. They didn't outplay us at ES. We outscored TB 11-9 at ES.
So ya, you can blame Subban, Markov, Gilbert or whoever else, but fact remains we outscored TB at ES. What killed us is special teams. They got theirs to work, our coaches weren't able to fix ours or adapt. It cost us the series.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Talk about disconnect indeed...

Our SV% went down by 1 point, you're stretching it by blaming the Ds for our shortcomings.

During the POs, as soon the Hackburglar was out of the picture our SH% went down the drain. We went from 9.1% in regular season to 5.6%. Our PDO took a whooping 6 points hit. And the formula that allowed our regular season success was broken, (Price stands on his head --> We score a timely goal --> Win) We failed to score the timely goal and we went 3-6 and out during that time span.

And this is why relying on something unusually high to win is not the way to go.
Maybe they learned their lessons, maybe not, we'll see...

It doesn't matter.

We've had two years of bad systems. If Therrien changes... great! We'll be all the better for it and we can all get behind him. If we stay on the same path, then we'll probably continue to rely on Price and probably never see a championship. If we change the system I'll wait and see how we do this year and go from there.

Whether this player or that player had a bad playoff series is beside the point. At the end of the day, we're discussing the coach. And the coach hasn't gotten good results from the skaters he's been entrusted with.

Fortunately though, Price has his own coach.

 

[TheBlindFan]

Yes, hockey is about winning. This thread isn't about hockey, it's about a coach. There's a difference. If you don't want to discuss the coach, then why open the thread?..

As for people critical of Therrien, it started 2 years ago, as we played way less aggressive than the previous season. In his first year back, people were actually praising Therrien and saying it seems he's changed. The same posters that are critical of him were giving him kudos.
So, what happened? Did they magically decide to start being critical for the sake of it? Of course not.
They watched the games, they noticed a change in the system, they saw a lot of breakdowns happening and it continued for 2 years so it makes no sense that it's from a poor execution of the strong structured system. Bench management and the PP have also been weak. Then they look at the underlying metrics, and they see that it reflects exactly what they see.

Right now, we played well the past two games and if we keep playing like this, you'll see the posters be way less critical and probably even give credit.

The thing is Bashing on Therrien is not something small here... no no no...

Da record need to be a reminder on the the strenght of the current team which includes : Players, Coatches, and Management.

bashing on Therrien is so intense that he cannot to any good, so no need put new "metric" here, he is just bashed...

His record is great. If it's system was as bad as people are saying, you know we wouldn't no win any games. (Price cannot score goal, and we still winning without him, (we are better with him, that not even the question, the team is still good at less at something))

The PP is attroce since the second haft of last season... but frankly, if we win with a 0% PP, we still win... It's on everyone... Patch, Galch and Subban struggle, not only the coaches...

"I'm dream of paying 1 billion dollar of tax... that would mean I would be making 2-3 billions"

Go habs Go! keep winning boys!

 

[ECWHSWI]

The thing is Bashing on Therrien is not something small here... no no no...

Da record need to be a reminder on the the strenght of the current team which includes : Players, Coatches, and Management.

bashing on Therrien is so intense that he cannot to any good, so no need put new "metric" here, he is just bashed...

His record is great. If it's system was as bad as people are saying, you know we wouldn't no win any games. (Price cannot score goal, and we still winning without him, (we are better with him, that not even the question, the team is still good at less at something))

The PP is attroce since the second haft of last season... but frankly, if we win with a 0% PP, we still win... It's on everyone... Patch, Galch and Subban struggle, not only the coaches...

"I'm dream of paying 1 billion dollar of tax... that would mean I would be making 2-3 billions"

Go habs Go! keep winning boys!

in wich aspect of the game you think he is good ?

 

[Hoople]

based on what ?

Who would you consider to be a peer of PK Subban?

How about Duncan Keith? Fair statement?

The Habs gave up 16 goals to the Bolts during their series. As I said, our D played really bad defense. Subban, Markov, Gilbert and Emelin played below their expectations.

But since you mentioned and asked about Subban, he was on the ice for 9 of the 16 goals scored by the Bolts.

Duncan Keith. How did he do?

The Blackhawks gave up ONLY 10 goals to the Bolts (Isnt Price better than Crawford?? Isnt that what we hear all the time??)

Duncan Keith was on the ice for only 3 of the 10 Bolts goals.

PK - on ice for 56% of the Bolts goals.
Keith - on ice for 30% of the Bolts goals.

Yeah......Therrien's fault.

(mod) Grind that axe.....

 

[Hoople]

We lost to TB because of special teams. We couldn't stop their PP, we couldn't buy a goal on ours. They didn't outplay us at ES. We outscored TB 11-9 at ES.
So ya, you can blame Subban, Markov, Gilbert or whoever else, but fact remains we outscored TB at ES. What killed us is special teams. They got theirs to work, our coaches weren't able to fix ours or adapt. It cost us the series.

Defensemen have to play defense on the penalty kill.......do they not?

Blaming the system on the poor showing during the PK makes for good reading. In reality though, Habs D were more often than not out of position. That is on the individual player, not the system.

Either that or Carey Price is overrated.

Which one is it?