Therrien - New Season Edition

[ECWHSWI]

"As a team we've got to understand that Carey's the best goalie in the world but he's also human, things are going to happen out of his control sometimes and we've got to respond for him," defenseman P.K. Subban said. "Listen, Carey will always say the right things, I'm sure he's frustrated, but we need to be better around him. I don't care what Carey says, we need to be better around him and support him more. I think too many times this year he's bailed us out and that's got to change moving forward if we want to be a successful team in the regular season and the postseason.

"If we expect him to play the way he's played this year every year, it's unfair. There's going to be ups and downs, and it's tough to be at that level every single game. He's managed to do it this year, but we have to realize our job is to make his job easier, not to make it more difficult."

This is where the Canadiens' oft-repeated mantra that they are a team in transition comes into play. General manager Marc Bergevin says it every time he is asked to assess the Canadiens, and coach Michel Therrien follows suit, as he did again after the series-ending loss in Game 6.

The loss to the Lightning completes the third season of the Bergevin/Therrien regime, and considering the Canadiens were the worst team in the Eastern Conference when they took over, they might have a point. But transition in today's NHL cannot take years; it has to happen when your core pieces are in their prime.

Price will be 28 when next season starts. Top scorer Max Pacioretty is 26; Subban turns 26 on Wednesday. Those are the core pieces of the Canadiens, and they are in their prime.

"I'm going to be honest with you; tomorrow I turn 26, and the years seem to fly by," Subban said. "So I don't look at a season as a transition season, I look at a season as an opportunity to win a Cup. I can't focus on saying we need to wait a couple of years before we can contend. We need to contend now."

The list of things the Canadiens need to reach that contender status is not necessarily that long, but it's long enough. If it was to be summed up briefly, however, it would be that they need to score.

The Canadiens were the top defensive team in the NHL this season, backed largely by Price, and that became their identity. When you are facing 29 other teams once at a time during the regular season, you can get by on that. But in the playoffs, when every team takes just as much pride in its defensive play, you need something else to lean on, and the Canadiens didn't have it.

Players like Alex Galchenyuk and Brendan Gallagher, and even Pacioretty and Subban, are still on the upswing of their careers and have room to develop. But the infusion of some established offensive talent would fill a void this team had all season.

"That's the one thing you learn about the playoffs, you've got to bury your chances," Subban said. "I think individually we've all had chances to bury, and whether it's bad luck or not being sharp enough, we didn't do enough things well to finish them, to win.

"We did a lot of good things to be in the series, but to win the series you've got to finish, you've got to be great. And we weren't great."

Coming into these playoffs, most people predicted the Canadiens would go as far as Price could take them. A similar prediction, based solely on the performance of a single player, was not made of any other playoff team.

The Canadiens were potentially great because of Carey Price. They will only become great when it is no longer solely about Carey Price.

I have re-read your article twice - where is Subban saying anything remotely negative to Therrien or the system. Exposed again Guy....

Subban talking about "saying the right things", that's interesting...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I have re-read your article twice - where is Subban saying anything remotely negative to Therrien or the system. Exposed again Guy....

As I said in an earlier post, PK has made thinly veiled comments but he rarely says anything negative. Throughout this article he talks about how this team has relied on Price far too much (something I've told you time and again) and it's reiterated by Apron Basu in the article:

"Coming into these playoffs, most people predicted the Canadiens would go as far as Price could take them. A similar prediction, based solely on the performance of a single player, was not made of any other playoff team.

The Canadiens were potentially great because of Carey Price. They will only become great when it is no longer solely about Carey Price."

Notice how he mentions that nobody else is as dependent on one player as we are. Our success pretty much begins and ends with him. If he has even an average night we lose because we give him absolutely no wiggle room.

As I said before, PK is NEVER going to directly criticize his coach or the GM or anyone else. It's not going to happen.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

in post #177 you said:

-Pittsburgh were 26th for shots against when Therrien was fired

-Pit went top 10 in shots for

-Pit went top 10 for shots against

All 3 statements were false.

In post 186 I provide you with a link.

30th in shots when he was fired.
22nd (not 26th as I stated earlier) in shots against
Pits went top ten in shots for and against after he was replaced.

The link is there and I even put the quote in for you. I'm not sure what more you're looking for.

 

[OnTheRun]

Funny thing is, after that year they won the cup, the Pens have not come close to even making it to the SCF since Therrien.

Side note I think SN mentioned that after Saturdays win.. Therrien team has beaten Babcock's team in 7 straight games...

lol

Carbo was like 12-0 against Julien's Bruins at some point. This fixation on the record is unhealthy I'm telling ya.

 

[Habnot]

As I said in an earlier post, PK has made thinly veiled comments but he rarely says anything negative. Throughout this article he talks about how this team has relied on Price far too much (something I've told you time and again) and it's reiterated by Apron Basu in the article:

"Coming into these playoffs, most people predicted the Canadiens would go as far as Price could take them. A similar prediction, based solely on the performance of a single player, was not made of any other playoff team.

The Canadiens were potentially great because of Carey Price. They will only become great when it is no longer solely about Carey Price."

Notice how he mentions that nobody else is as dependent on one player as we are. Our success pretty much begins and ends with him. If he has even an average night we lose because we give him absolutely no wiggle room.

As I said before, PK is NEVER going to directly criticize his coach or the GM or anyone else. It's not going to happen.

You realize you are quoting Basu....

Never mind how Subban praises Therrien in actual quotes, we are supposed to believe that he actually thinks Therrien is a terrible coach through thinly veined imaginative intentions that is only transmitted to the truly enlightened like Guy.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You realize you are quoting Basu....

I explicitly said I was quoting him.

Never mind how Subban praises Therrien in actual quotes, we are supposed to believe that he actually thinks Therrien is a terrible coach

What he says is that the team is far too dependent on Price. He takes responsibility himself for his play but he goes out of his way to criticize the team's play saying that we're always depending on him to win.

He's not going to explicitly criticize anyone. I never said he would. He didn't even criticize the GM when he was going to arbitration, I don't see him criticizing anyone.

The point that I made was that you are only looking at the praise coming from players, you aren't looking at the bashing he's gotten. And MT gets a lot of bashing from a lot of former players. You don't normally see that.

through thinly veined imaginative intentions that is only transmitted to the truly enlightened like Guy.

I've been respectful towards you... I expect the same in return. There's no need for this. If you want to have a discussion, I'll engage with you. If you're looking for a fight, I'll walk away from this conversation and you can argue with somebody else.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

excuses like what ? "no worries, it's pre-season, MT is experimenting" ?

I think you're honestly just trying to get a reaction here. You cannot possibly be serious.

 

[OnTheRun]

Well since it's quote hour, I have a quote too!

But Price's teammate are getting used to seeing their goaltender keep them in games long enough to pull out wins.

"You get goose bumps when you're stepping out of the tunnel because you want to step up for him," Pacioretty said of Price. "It sounds cheesy, but he really is the backbone of this team.

"When we let him down by giving up a chance that's not deserved and he makes a big save, I think we bear down a bit harder for him. It was a good example today. We left him out to dry a couple of times."

I love this quote, because it put a serious dent in the idea of Therrien being the greatest motivator ever. It also take a good jab at the team being some kind of defensive Juggernaut.

Also Price's teammates realize he goes above and beyond the call of duty more often than not.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Well since it's quote hour, I have a quote too!



I love this quote, because it put a serious dent in the idea of Therrien being the greatest motivator ever. It also take a good jab at the team being some kind of defensive Juggernaut.

Also Price's teammates realize he goes above and beyond the call of duty more often than not.

... it really doesn't...

 

[OnTheRun]

They definitely don't play for the oaf behind the bench. So yeah it does.

Unless you can prove otherwise, but since you can't...

 

[habs03]

Good point, I'd forgotten about that but you're right.

That was another head scratcher. We'd put him in the offensive zone - when he had no offensive skills. All so he wouldn't kill us with defensive starts. If we'd done this with Beau he'd have actually helped us offensively at least. Think about it... we had to put Murray out there in the offensive zone... made absolutely no sense at all.


They won the cup with Bylsma, not Therrien. Therrien had that cup winning team out of the playoffs before he was fired.

I know I said after the year they won the cup, they haven't come close since.

Heck most pens fan feel like DB was just riding everything MT did to get them to the cup. Seeing how they never even reached the finals since then...l

Not that I think MT is a good coach, but for sure better than what some make him out to be.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I know I said after the year they won the cup, they haven't come close since.

Heck most pens fan feel like DB was just riding everything MT did to get them to the cup. Seeing how they never even reached the finals since then...l

Not that I think MT is a good coach, but for sure better than what some make him out to be.

It's more than a little misleading to say they haven't come close to the cup since Therrien esp when they were out of a playoff spot when he was last their coach. Moreso when his replacement went on to win the cup with the very team that Therrien had out and 30th in shots...

As for him being better than some think, I don't see any evidence of this.

But... I'd love to see him turn things around. We had a good system in 2013. If he went back to that, most of the criticism will go away.

 

[Rapala]

MT is a huge problem.
We can continue on ad infinitum with these respectable regular seasons (points).
This does not appear to be likely to translate into a Cup or Cups.
I have major issues with this.
Issues that grow as time passes.

 

[habs03]

It's more than a little misleading to say they haven't come close to the cup since Therrien esp when they were out of a playoff spot when he was last their coach. Moreso when his replacement went on to win the cup with the very team that Therrien had out and 30th in shots...

As for him being better than some think, I don't see any evidence of this.

But... I'd love to see him turn things around. We had a good system in 2013. If he went back to that, most of the criticism will go away.

Evidence he is better coach then some think is based on his turn around of teams.

In his first time in Mtl and his time in Pitts, the team improved greatly under MT than they did before, now he took over mid-season in both cases, but the following full year, the team greatly improved. In Mtl the 2nd time, he turned around the team aswell.

As for the system in 2013, people say we used a different system and so forth, I really can't say if that is true or not, but what is weird is that that year Mtl had a decent pp, yet their PK was horrible... Price had a decent start to the year, actually around the 30 game mark was the pick of most Eastern coference coach to be the best goalie in the East, but once games start getting serious and teams were fighting for playoff position, Price tanked, had a horrible finish to the season, and tanked in the playoffs, led to him making some questionable comments about playing in Mtl, to the point where Bergevin said he had to have a seat down talk to him. So was that system so great?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Evidence he is better coach then some think is based on his turn around of teams.

In his first time in Mtl and his time in Pitts, the team improved greatly under MT than they did before, now he took over mid-season in both cases, but the following full year, the team greatly improved. In Mtl the 2nd time, he turned around the team aswell.

As for the system in 2013, people say we used a different system and so forth, I really can't say if that is true or not, but what is weird is that that year Mtl had a decent pp, yet their PK was horrible... Price had a decent start to the year, actually around the 30 game mark was the pick of most Eastern coference coach to be the best goalie in the East, but once games start getting serious and teams were fighting for playoff position, Price tanked, had a horrible finish to the season, and tanked in the playoffs, led to him making some questionable comments about playing in Mtl, to the point where Bergevin said he had to have a seat down talk to him. So was that system so great?

The turnaround of his teams? His record when taking over teams is a five point loss in possession numbers. That's a massive difference. It's so bad that it can be the difference between being a top team and missing the postseason altogether - something we saw with him in Pittsburgh. And in fact they probably would've missed the year before as well but Fleury had an incredible year.

He's also had great young talent to work with and two out of three times has had arguably the best player in the league playing for him. What coach is going to lose with the talent we have on this roster? Our last game was a perfect example of the last two seasons: Get outplayed, let Price save the day and have Max and PK get some timely points. We've got the talent to win but our system and roster mgmt (not to mention the PP) sucks.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

They definitely don't play for the oaf behind the bench. So yeah it does.

Unless you can prove otherwise, but since you can't...

One only has to go back to those Gallagher/Patch quotes about how MT/MB have insisted on chemistry and team first attitude to understand how ridiculous your claim is. They all play for each others.. and that's exactly what the coach and GM want them to do.

MT being a good motivator simply means he knows how to get the best effort out of his team, not that he gets them to do it out of undying love for him. Not surprising to me that you take these shortcuts and jump to conclusions so easily however... gotta push that agenda !

 

[OnTheRun]

One only has to go back to those Gallagher/Patch quotes about how MT/MB have insisted on chemistry and team first attitude to understand how ridiculous your claim is. They all play for each others.. and that's exactly what the coach and GM want them to do.

MT being a good motivator simply means he knows how to get the best effort out of his team, not that he gets them to do it out of undying love for him. Not surprising to me that you take these shortcuts and jump to conclusions so easily however... gotta push that agenda !

So they play for each others, Price is the cornerstone that keep the whole thing from falling apart.

Therrien is about as useful in this matter as cardboard cut-out. Nice try tho.

 

[habs03]

The turnaround of his teams? His record when taking over teams is a five point loss in possession numbers. That's a massive difference. It's so bad that it can be the difference between being a top team and missing the postseason altogether - something we saw with him in Pittsburgh. And in fact they probably would've missed the year before as well but Fleury had an incredible year.

He's also had great young talent to work with and two out of three times has had arguably the best player in the league playing for him. What coach is going to lose with the talent we have on this roster? Our last game was a perfect example of the last two seasons: Get outplayed, let Price save the day and have Max and PK get some timely points. We've got the talent to win but our system and roster mgmt (not to mention the PP) sucks.

I'm not getting into this debate or record vs corsi debate, because I think both are important to look at, it not just one or the other. And the fact of the matter is his time in Pitts was much different then his time here. In Pitts it was a team that got use to losing, which forced him to be much tougher on them, probably why they tuned him out that season he got fired, and the fact that in Mtl he has not had to do that has made him last much longer than originally expected.

In terms having Price save the day, last year, no doubt that Mtl is not a 110 point with Price playing just good hockey, but you know what the year before, they were still a 100 point team with a good Price not Hart and Vezina Price, in the playoffs with Price gone and down 0-1 in the series, the team took the Rangers to game 6, in a tight series with an AHL goalie...

 

[Habnot]

I explicitly said I was quoting him.

What he says is that the team is far too dependent on Price. He takes responsibility himself for his play but he goes out of his way to criticize the team's play saying that we're always depending on him to win.

He's not going to explicitly criticize anyone. I never said he would. He didn't even criticize the GM when he was going to arbitration, I don't see him criticizing anyone.

The point that I made was that you are only looking at the praise coming from players, you aren't looking at the bashing he's gotten. And MT gets a lot of bashing from a lot of former players. You don't normally see that.

I don't see any reference or correlation to the coaching or system. Every quote I read is how the individual players take responsibility for not playing as well as Price. It is a leap to try to tie this to Therrien.

If someone can actually post a quote from a player that put in question the system or the leadership of the coach I will gladly apologize.

As for player utilization, are we really going to take the comments of Bourque or Sekac or any player that got traded over the core players of the team?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don't see any reference or correlation to the coaching or system. Every quote I read is how the individual players take responsibility for not playing as well as Price. It is a leap to try to tie this to Therrien.

If someone can actually post a quote from a player that put in question the system or the leadership of the coach I will gladly apologize.

I don't think you'll ever see Subban criticize any coach or GM. At most he'll allude to not being happy with how the team is playing.

I never made the assertion that he was even unhappy with the coach, that was somebody else. I simply posted the link because I thought it was an interesting and somewhat relevant article. He definitely thinks that we rely too much on Price and that's pretty much what I've argued in this thread.

As for player utilization, are we really going to take the comments of Bourque or Sekac or any player that got traded over the core players of the team?

I don't think we need to take anybody's word over anyone else's. That's not the point.

The point is that almost all coaches get praise from their players. It's just something that players do. As I said, the 'Nucks players couldn't say enough about Torts weeks before he was fired.

But it is unusual to see players slagging a coach even after they leave. It will happen with the odd player but it happens all the time with Therrien.

I wouldn't go so far as to say he's hated by his players or even that they don't like or respect him. There's no real way of knowing this. I'm just saying that you chose the wrong argument when you brought up what his players think about him. He gets a lot more heat from former players than most do. And that's not counting the unnamed former players who've gone on record as saying that "Price covers up for a lot of mistakes."

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I'm not getting into this debate or record vs corsi debate, because I think both are important to look at, it not just one or the other. And the fact of the matter is his time in Pitts was much different then his time here. In Pitts it was a team that got use to losing, which forced him to be much tougher on them, probably why they tuned him out that season he got fired, and the fact that in Mtl he has not had to do that has made him last much longer than originally expected.

In terms having Price save the day, last year, no doubt that Mtl is not a 110 point with Price playing just good hockey, but you know what the year before, they were still a 100 point team with a good Price not Hart and Vezina Price, in the playoffs with Price gone and down 0-1 in the series, the team took the Rangers to game 6, in a tight series with an AHL goalie...

Price was incredible in 2014. That was a Vezina quality season without a doubt. You don't have to actually win a Vezina for it to be a Vezina caliber year.

And we played much worse in 2014 than we did last year actually, in large part because we gave regular ice to Murray and Cube.

 

[Nynja*]

Jackpot and habnots replies here are cringeworthy

"Post quotes youre liars therrien is the best price and subban love the gameplan"

Post gets quoted

"Lol they never said that"


Seriously?

 

[Habnot]

I don't think you'll ever see Subban criticize any coach or GM. At most he'll allude to not being happy with how the team is playing.

I never made the assertion that he was even unhappy with the coach, that was somebody else. I simply posted the link because I thought it was an interesting and somewhat relevant article. He definitely thinks that we rely too much on Price and that's pretty much what I've argued in this thread.

I don't think we need to take anybody's word over anyone else's. That's not the point.

The point is that almost all coaches get praise from their players. It's just something that players do. As I said, the 'Nucks players couldn't say enough about Torts weeks before he was fired.

But it is unusual to see players slagging a coach even after they leave. It will happen with the odd player but it happens all the time with Therrien.

I wouldn't go so far as to say he's hated by his players or even that they don't like or respect him. There's no real way of knowing this. I'm just saying that you chose the wrong argument when you brought up what his players think about him. He gets a lot more heat from former players than most do. And that's not counting the unnamed former players who've gone on record as saying that "Price covers up for a lot of mistakes."

I really have a hard time following your train of thought...I made the point that the leadership core goes out of their way to praise the coach and you counter saying there's no way of really knowing this - except you have precise and lengthy quotes that I have provided of players going out of their way to praise the coach and the way they have been treated and the team chemistry that the management team has instilled.

Then you say that he gets more heat from former players - which is completely unsubstantiated - an clearly just an opinion.

 

[OnTheRun]

I really have a hard time following your train of thought...I made the point that the leadership core goes out of their way to praise the coach and you counter saying there's no way of really knowing this - except you have precise and lengthy quotes that I have provided of players going out of their way to praise the coach and the way they have been treated and the team chemistry that the management team has instilled.

Then you say that he gets more heat from former players - which is completely unsubstantiated - an clearly just an opinion.

Are you for real?

When the players are asked by the media about the coaching staff they are going to say nice things about their bosses. That's hardy going "out of their way".

Not so long ago, there was a thing called the NHLs Awards, Price was on stage for half the night, he gave his thanks to virtually everyone in the organisation by name... There was one notable exception... I'll let you guess who it was...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I really have a hard time following your train of thought...I made the point that the leadership core goes out of their way to praise the coach and you counter saying there's no way of really knowing this - except you have precise and lengthy quotes that I have provided of players going out of their way to praise the coach and the way they have been treated and the team chemistry that the management team has instilled.

I didn't say there's no way of knowing if they praised him. I've acknowleged that it's happened. Yes, the players have praised him. But... so what? We've seen that players do this with coaches all the time. It's meaningless.

I've said there's no way to really know what those players are thinking because some of them will say positive things no matter what.

Then you say that he gets more heat from former players - which is completely unsubstantiated - an clearly just an opinion.

Unsubstantiated? I don't think so. Bourque, Sekac, Briere, Ryan, Paranteau... off the top of my head all these guys have criticized how they were used. Some more vehemently than others.

We have unnamed players who've said that "Price makes up for a lot of mistakes"... You don't normally get that many players bashing a former coach and those are just the ones off the top of my head. Your argument that these guys are scrubs so they should be ignored doesn't wash. Star players aren't going to trash their own coach when they know they'll be playing for him tomorrow night... and quite frankly it doesn't look good bashing a coach which is why it's unusual to see it.

So, like I said... at best it's a wash with him. I wouldn't argue that he has the respect of his players because he gets praised because he gets bashed just as much and that doesn't normally happen.