Therrien - New Season Edition

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Mr Jackpot

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Mar 16, 2013
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according to Lafleur Guy:

-Michel Therrien made the stanley cup final because he had a stacked team

-Dan Bylsma won the cup because he's a good coach

Great logic

+Kunitz and Guerin added at the deadline under Bylsma
+all the playoff experience acquired the year before
+all the young guys gaining maturity and getting better
 

FuzzyWuzzy

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Totally disagree. Beaulieu was a much better option than either Murray or Cube. MT simply chose to go with two of the worst statisical blueliners in the league instead.

And when Beau was paired with either of these guys their numbers went up. He was much better than either one of those guys were.

He was terrible across the board. He produced an incredible amount of nothingness for the huge amount of time he got on the PP. His usage can't be justified. It was a colossal waste of time putting him there and our PP suffered greatly for it. You are grasping at straws if you have to actually try to argue that Cube was the right call on the PP.

He had a stacked team and still managed to have them bottom third everywhere. He lost to the Wings with Hossa and Bylsma won with Hossa on the other roster.

Sorry but I'm not going to credit MT just because he happened to be coaching two generational talents (who were predicted to be generational before they came into the league.) Please don't sit there and try to convince us that he's the guy who made Crosby and Malkin superstars because that argument is laughable.


Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Beaulieu was not even close to being ready to play in the big league and i thought Bouillon in his limited capacity did an OK job. Certainly not "horrible across the board".
 

habs03

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Jun 21, 2010
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according to Lafleur Guy:

-Michel Therrien made the stanley cup final because he had a stacked team

-Dan Bylsma won the cup because he's a good coach

Great logic

+Kunitz and Guerin added at the deadline under Bylsma
+all the playoff experience acquired the year before
+all the young guys gaining maturity and getting better

Funny thing is, after that year they won the cup, the Pens have not come close to even making it to the SCF since Therrien.

Side note I think SN mentioned that after Saturdays win.. Therrien team has beaten Babcock's team in 7 straight games...

lol :popcorn:
 

Nynja*

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Funny thing is, after that year they won the cup, the Pens have not come close to even making it to the SCF since Therrien.

Side note I think SN mentioned that after Saturdays win.. Therrien team has beaten Babcock's team in 7 straight games...

lol :popcorn:

Carey Price is a hell of a drug
 

Habnot

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That's true, his record is a fact. Indisputable. Endorsements from players are also great. The issue with that though is there isn't too many people out there willing to publicly criticize their coach or GMs. There isn't too many players like Thornton who will flat out say in the media that their GM should shut up. I'm sure a guy like Bouillon would have nothing but good things to say about Therrien. Can the same be said of Sekac?? So, while endorsements are great, they don't really mean much. We just rarely ever hear the other side of the medal.
I'm not saying they're made up, I'm sure Therrien brings good things to this group.
There are also a some bad things.

You say they are great yet you can't leave it at that and you go to minimize and dismiss. I'm sure that there are players who dislike him, but the core leaders of the team are all on record that they like the current administration and Therrien. Even if you don't want to trash your coach, nothing forces you to endorse him either.

Here is another example from Gallagher:

“I think it’s been really good for me,†Gallagher told the radio station about playing for Therrien. “Coming up as a young guy, I think (Therrien) did it great with me and (Alex) Galchenyuk there to start. He made us earn every opportunity. If you want to get put on the ice in key situations, you had to show that you were deserving of it. And once you do deserve it, he’s not shy to put you out there in tough situations. Early on, (Alex) Ovechkin, (Sidney) Crosby’s on the ice, you’re probably coming off. And over the years, I think he gives you more and more opportunities. As long as you earn it, he’s going to throw you out and trust that you’re going to get the job done.â€

Here's Patches:
Management has opened up all of our eyes to how important it is to have chemistry, to be good teammates, and how far that goes within a team.

Sometimes you think it’s just excuses and outside noise, how important chemistry is, but the fact that Marc (GM Marc Bergevin) and Mike (coach Michel Therrien) have had so much success in different places, they obviously knew the type of chemistry we needed and it’s worked out really well.


So we have evidence, multiple sources, team leaders but we prefer you defer to Sekac. I think this speaks for itself.


The problem on this board is if anything is brought up, it isn't actually discussed, it's just shrugged off. It's repeatedly done. When I brought up Bouillon on the PP, I was met with the ''you're not there, I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason for this decision''. When I asked about Murray, same thing. PK being benched over Murray, same thing. I ask why we dump and chase so much, why we are completely lost in our zone, why do we have a terrible transition game, people said I'm a hater constantly questioning the coach and that you know, maybe it's the players poorly executing the play for 2-3 years.
Smokey brought up the Eichel's ice time. He's not entirely wrong, Galchenyuk should get way more ice time. But Eichel is playing on a terrible Buffalo team, he'll get a high level of ice time right away.

Except that comparing Eichel's situation to Galchenyuk is disingenuous. Eichel is physically mature for his age. Chucky didn't play for an entire season and then had to come back from a major ACL injury. As for Therrien's usage of young players, I prefer to take the opinion of someone who is directly implicated and has more credibility than Smokey. See Gallagher's comments above.

As for Boullion and Murray - I think this goes back to the trust issue and comfort with veterans. I agree that he's slow to change this aspect - but it is getting better. You can make the same point this year - I am sure that many would rather see Pateryn play instead of Gilbert or Beaulieu elevate to 2nd pairing.

You're right, if your favorites bring you success, it's hard to argue against it. DD with Patches didn't make us win anything though. Bouillon was regularly used on the PP and it yielded no result. Therrien has a history there too with Ouellet in Pittsburgh where fans simply could never rationalize his over usage of that player.

I can't disagree with your assessment - but to be fair you can say the same for the majority of the best NHL coaches.

Therrien has brought in a good atmosphere and work ethic to this team. Even though the team somehow seems to always be a slow starter, you rarely see any lazy shifts. I mean, some lazy back checking is always going to happen but generally speaking, the team battles hard. Team spirit seems very good and the players seem to buy into his message moving along all in sync. Patches, PK, Price have grown in terms of leadership under him. Whether or not they would have blossomed the same under a different coach is really anybody's guess. What we know is that it did happen under his watch, so I have no problem giving him credit for it.
However, to me, the most important part of coaching is the structure, the Xs and Os and bench management. Those two things Therrien doesn't seem to be quite good at.

Just because you do not agree with the strategy it does not make him a bad coach. Therrien and Bergevin - both - share the same philosophy on team tactics - and they have been somewhat successful in implementing - I do realize that Price has a part in the success.

I also think that he's quite good in game situation and adjustments. He's not afraid to make adjustments. I'm not saying he's Scotty Bowman - but I don't see this as a weakness.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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according to Lafleur Guy:

-Michel Therrien made the stanley cup final because he had a stacked team

-Dan Bylsma won the cup because he's a good coach

Great logic
I never said Bylsma was a good coach. But it says a lot when a guy like Bylsma (who won't be mistaken for Scotty Bowman) immediately had that team top ten whereas Therrien had them bottom third - and OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS.
+Kunitz and Guerin added at the deadline under Bylsma
+all the playoff experience acquired the year before
+all the young guys gaining maturity and getting better
All that great experience translated into 30th in shots, 22nd in shots against and being out of the playoffs...
Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Beaulieu was not even close to being ready to play in the big league and i thought Bouillon in his limited capacity did an OK job. Certainly not "horrible across the board".
Beaulieu was much better than either Cube or Murray. Murray was so bad in that Boston series that when he was on the ice the shots were something like 8-1 against when he was on the ice. He was dreadful.

And this much cannot be disputed: When Beau was on the ice together with these guys both Cube and Murray's numbers went up. We also saw that Cube was wholly ineffective on the PP.

That cannot be disputed. And both those guys were right down at the very bottom statistically. Not only was Beau better than either one, he could've gotten more experience in the big leagues. It was favouritism pure and simple. And favourtism wouldn't really bother me so much except that he seems to favour bad players over good ones.
 

Mr Jackpot

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So we have evidence, multiple sources, team leaders but we prefer you defer to Sekac. I think this speaks for itself.

Of course he will cherry pick on a Sekac quote, what do you expect from a Therrien hater with limited hockey knowledge.

The same Sekac who was a healthy scratch under one the of the best NHL coach in Bruce Boudreau.

And don't worry, Therrien haters won't read quotes by Subban, Pacio, Gallagher, Price, they prefer to read quotes by Sekac and Rene Bourque.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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That was despite being sheltered harder than Davey.
Good point, I'd forgotten about that but you're right.

That was another head scratcher. We'd put him in the offensive zone - when he had no offensive skills. All so he wouldn't kill us with defensive starts. If we'd done this with Beau he'd have actually helped us offensively at least. Think about it... we had to put Murray out there in the offensive zone... made absolutely no sense at all.

Funny thing is, after that year they won the cup, the Pens have not come close to even making it to the SCF since Therrien.
They won the cup with Bylsma, not Therrien. Therrien had that cup winning team out of the playoffs before he was fired.
 

Nynja*

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And don't worry, Therrien haters won't read quotes by Subban, Pacio, Gallagher, Price, they prefer to read quotes by Sekac and Rene Bourque.

How about quotes by Davey, Subban, Price wishing we played a gameplan that pushed more offence instead of "two goals is enough to win a hockey game"?

How about Eller's post-season interview?
 

Lafleurs Guy

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So we have evidence, multiple sources, team leaders but we prefer you defer to Sekac. I think this speaks for itself.
What speaks for itself is how many players have come out and blasted him. Again, I'm not sure why you'd raise this as some kind of plus for him because most coaches don't get blasted by players the way this guy does. You might get the odd player who blasts you but there are tons of instances of it happening with Therrien.

Pretty much every coach gets praised... Torts was praised by Canucks players just before he got turfed. Its great that he got praised by Max and Crosby but you don't expect the kind of bashing we've seen. So again, I'm not sure why you raised this argument in the first place because it really doesn't support the idea that he's well liked or respected by his players.
 

Lebowski

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Dec 5, 2010
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Of course he will cherry pick on a Sekac quote, what do you expect from a Therrien hater with limited hockey knowledge.

The same Sekac who was a healthy scratch under one the of the best NHL coach in Bruce Boudreau.

And don't worry, Therrien haters won't read quotes by Subban, Pacio, Gallagher, Price, they prefer to read quotes by Sekac and Rene Bourque.

Know what Sekac and Bourque have in common? They're not on the team anymore.

Know what Subban, Pacioretty, Gallagher and Price have in common? They're still on the team.

How often do you see a player openly criticize his coach in the media? :rolleyes:
 

Mr Jackpot

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Know what Sekac and Bourque have in common? They're not on the team anymore.

Know what Subban, Pacioretty, Gallagher and Price have in common? They're still on the team.

How often do you see a player openly criticize his coach in the media? :rolleyes:

no no you didn't.

Ok wait a minute.

Subban, Pacioretty and Price not only play, but plays at an elite level.

Sekac and Bourque don't play period.
 

Nynja*

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Subban and Price are both quoted as saying they'd prefer a more offensive system, but "will play within the gameplan"
 

Mr Jackpot

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How about quotes by Davey, Subban, Price wishing we played a gameplan that pushed more offence instead of "two goals is enough to win a hockey game"?

Please provide a link where Subban or Price saying "we wish we played a gameplan that pushed more offence"

Provide links, don't do like Lafleur Guy yesterday where he couldn't provide links. I found out later that most of what Lafleur Guy said were false statements.

C'mon guys it's time to provide links to prove all the false statements you're spewing.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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Please provide a link where Subban or Price saying "we wish we played a gameplan that pushed more offence"

Provide links, don't do like Lafleur Guy yesterday where he couldn't provide links. I found out later that most of what Lafleur Guy said were false statements.

C'mon guys it's time to provide links to prove all the false statements you're spewing.
This is the third time I've told you...

POST 186
 

Habs

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Therrien trying to out-smart Babcock , as if pretending Toronto didn't have last change.. = pure gold
 

Kriss E

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You say they are great yet you can't leave it at that and you go to minimize and dismiss. I'm sure that there are players who dislike him, but the core leaders of the team are all on record that they like the current administration and Therrien. Even if you don't want to trash your coach, nothing forces you to endorse him either.
I agree, I simply stated that you never have unanimity and it's rare for the disapproval part to actually come forward.
If the reporters and journalists were actually good at their jobs maybe we'd get more info. You know, like if they actually asked relevant questions instead of ''hey you scored two goals, how do you feel about it?''..
Sometimes you think it’s just excuses and outside noise, how important chemistry is, but the fact that Marc (GM Marc Bergevin) and Mike (coach Michel Therrien) have had so much success in different places, they obviously knew the type of chemistry we needed and it’s worked out really well.[/I]
I think chemistry is very important and they have done well to establish it within our group.

So we have evidence, multiple sources, team leaders but we prefer you defer to Sekac. I think this speaks for itself.
I don't prefer to defer to Sekac. He was simply an example of a player with a different opinion to prove my point. I also brought up Thornton who doesn't even play for us. That although you do hear negative comments, they are way more rare especially from big time players. I mean, everyone knows Lecavalier and Tortz had some feud, but I don't recall Vinny saying anything bad about him even while it was happening. That was just my point.

But getting support is good, no doubt.

Except that comparing Eichel's situation to Galchenyuk is disingenuous. Eichel is physically mature for his age. Chucky didn't play for an entire season and then had to come back from a major ACL injury. As for Therrien's usage of young players, I prefer to take the opinion of someone who is directly implicated and has more credibility than Smokey. See Gallagher's comments above.
Well I think Smokey was talking about Eichel's first NHL game ever to the first game of Galchenyuk's 4th season.
Really, there was absolutely no reason for Galchenyuk to play as little as he did on Wednesday.

As for Boullion and Murray - I think this goes back to the trust issue and comfort with veterans. I agree that he's slow to change this aspect - but it is getting better. You can make the same point this year - I am sure that many would rather see Pateryn play instead of Gilbert or Beaulieu elevate to 2nd pairing.
I can understand when you play veterans like Gionta who appear to have slowed down but can still be somewhat effective. Bouillon though had no business on the PP, there is no rationality behind it. I'm sure he had a reason but that doesn't mean it was a rational one. It was stupid.
Same thing with using Murray, arguably the worst Dman in the NHL, over your Norris trophy winner like he did quite a few times with under 5min left in the 3rd period. I mean, let's call a spade a spade, this was completely stupid.

I can't disagree with your assessment - but to be fair you can say the same for the majority of the best NHL coaches.
Agreed.

Just because you do not agree with the strategy it does not make him a bad coach. Therrien and Bergevin - both - share the same philosophy on team tactics - and they have been somewhat successful in implementing - I do realize that Price has a part in the success.
Well, every one here discusses their own opinion. To me, if you have a good roster who more often than not looks disorganized, a weak transition game, and regularly gets outshot or outchanced, then you have a coaching problem.
He might be an awesome coach on a psychological level and establishing good values/ethics, but structure is the most important thing imo.

So when I argue if he's a good coach or not, I'm going to look at the structure of the team.
Now, if I look at how we played the first year, and at some times during the POs, where we played a more possessive game (although our defensive structure was still mediocre) then maybe Therrien has it in him. He says he wants to play more upbeat offensive hockey, we'll see if that actually happens.
I also think that he's quite good in game situation and adjustments. He's not afraid to make adjustments. I'm not saying he's Scotty Bowman - but I don't see this as a weakness.
I'm not as convinced. Seems the only thing he can do is move players around.
 

Habnot

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Also,

Here's what PK said after we were eliminated...

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=767464

On one hand, it is commendable for Price to come out and take the blame for the Canadiens' six-game loss in their Eastern Conference Second Round series against the Tampa Bay Lightning because he is seen as a team leader, and that's what good leaders do.

On the other hand, it is insane.

The Canadiens were not eliminated from the Stanley Cup Playoffs because of Carey Price. It could be argued the only reason they were even in the playoffs was because of Carey Price.



Canadiens vs. Lightning
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"I didn't play well enough for us to win the series," Price said after the Lightning's series-clinching 4-1 victory at Amalie Arena. "I think that's basically more or less what it comes down to."
The Canadiens have bigger problems; the fact their best player thinks he's one of them might be their biggest one.

"As a team we've got to understand that Carey's the best goalie in the world but he's also human, things are going to happen out of his control sometimes and we've got to respond for him," defenseman P.K. Subban said. "Listen, Carey will always say the right things, I'm sure he's frustrated, but we need to be better around him. I don't care what Carey says, we need to be better around him and support him more. I think too many times this year he's bailed us out and that's got to change moving forward if we want to be a successful team in the regular season and the postseason.

"If we expect him to play the way he's played this year every year, it's unfair. There's going to be ups and downs, and it's tough to be at that level every single game. He's managed to do it this year, but we have to realize our job is to make his job easier, not to make it more difficult."

This is where the Canadiens' oft-repeated mantra that they are a team in transition comes into play. General manager Marc Bergevin says it every time he is asked to assess the Canadiens, and coach Michel Therrien follows suit, as he did again after the series-ending loss in Game 6.

The loss to the Lightning completes the third season of the Bergevin/Therrien regime, and considering the Canadiens were the worst team in the Eastern Conference when they took over, they might have a point. But transition in today's NHL cannot take years; it has to happen when your core pieces are in their prime.

Price will be 28 when next season starts. Top scorer Max Pacioretty is 26; Subban turns 26 on Wednesday. Those are the core pieces of the Canadiens, and they are in their prime.

"I'm going to be honest with you; tomorrow I turn 26, and the years seem to fly by," Subban said. "So I don't look at a season as a transition season, I look at a season as an opportunity to win a Cup. I can't focus on saying we need to wait a couple of years before we can contend. We need to contend now."

The list of things the Canadiens need to reach that contender status is not necessarily that long, but it's long enough. If it was to be summed up briefly, however, it would be that they need to score.

The Canadiens were the top defensive team in the NHL this season, backed largely by Price, and that became their identity. When you are facing 29 other teams once at a time during the regular season, you can get by on that. But in the playoffs, when every team takes just as much pride in its defensive play, you need something else to lean on, and the Canadiens didn't have it.

Players like Alex Galchenyuk and Brendan Gallagher, and even Pacioretty and Subban, are still on the upswing of their careers and have room to develop. But the infusion of some established offensive talent would fill a void this team had all season.

"That's the one thing you learn about the playoffs, you've got to bury your chances," Subban said. "I think individually we've all had chances to bury, and whether it's bad luck or not being sharp enough, we didn't do enough things well to finish them, to win.

"We did a lot of good things to be in the series, but to win the series you've got to finish, you've got to be great. And we weren't great."

Coming into these playoffs, most people predicted the Canadiens would go as far as Price could take them. A similar prediction, based solely on the performance of a single player, was not made of any other playoff team.

The Canadiens were potentially great because of Carey Price. They will only become great when it is no longer solely about Carey Price.


I have re-read your article twice - where is Subban saying anything remotely negative to Therrien or the system. Exposed again Guy....
 
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