Therrien - New Season Edition

[FerrisRox]

I'm not talking about last year, I'm talking about this year. Wake up.

You are using your one game sample size.... Brilliant.

 

[FerrisRox]

Filppula...Valteri "48 points" Filppula. He's better than our centers? LOLOLOL Is this a joke? This sounds like a joke. He's basically Tampa's Davey: riding shotgun to a top 5 5v5 scorer of the past 5 yrs. The only difference is he doesnt disappear in the playoffs.

You just took a huge credibility hit here. Vaulter Filppula is an excellent two-way centre and highly skilled.

 

[FuzzyWuzzy]

BREAKING NEWS: NHL COACHES NOT ALLOWED TO BE FRIENDS WITH THEIR PLAYERS AFTER HAVING FOLLOWED THEM THEIR WHOLE CAREER STARTING FROM THE JUNIORS.

MORE AT 9 : IS WATER REALLY WET??

And before you say, NO; his sympathy for Bouillon doesnt necessarily translates into a bias in usage. YES, he used him on the 2nd wave of the PP but it's not like there were too many options back then and it's not like Bouillon did a poor job of it either. He cycled the puck as well as any 2nd wave PP d-man could be expected to.

Hopefully you realize that Bouillon is/was far from being the only d-man in the NHL who played the PP when they shouldnt have been because of a lack of options.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

BREAKING NEWS: NHL COACHES NOT ALLOWED TO BE FRIENDS WITH THEIR PLAYERS AFTER HAVING FOLLOWED THEM THEIR WHOLE CAREER STARTING FROM THE JUNIORS.

MORE AT 9 : IS WATER REALLY WET??

And before you say, NO; his sympathy for Bouillon doesnt necessarily translates into a bias in usage. YES, he used him on the 2nd wave of the PP but it's not like there were too many options back then and it's not like Bouillon did a poor job of it either. He cycled the puck as well as any 2nd wave PP d-man could be expected to.

Hopefully you realize that Bouillon is/was far from being the only d-man in the NHL who played the PP when they shouldnt have been because of a lack of options.

Yeah... no.

Beaulieu was a great option. Hell, put a forward there as an alternative. As for Cube being effective, you have got to be kidding.

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

You just took a huge credibility hit here. Vaulter Filppula is an excellent two-way centre and highly skilled.

lol Filpula is very much like a younger Scott Gomez...

But he is indeed better or as good as DD / Eller at center on a 2nd / 3rd line.

 

[Ezpz]

BREAKING NEWS: NHL COACHES NOT ALLOWED TO BE FRIENDS WITH THEIR PLAYERS AFTER HAVING FOLLOWED THEM THEIR WHOLE CAREER STARTING FROM THE JUNIORS.

MORE AT 9 : IS WATER REALLY WET??

And before you say, NO; his sympathy for Bouillon doesnt necessarily translates into a bias in usage. YES, he used him on the 2nd wave of the PP but it's not like there were too many options back then and it's not like Bouillon did a poor job of it either. He cycled the puck as well as any 2nd wave PP d-man could be expected to.

Hopefully you realize that Bouillon is/was far from being the only d-man in the NHL who played the PP when they shouldnt have been because of a lack of options.

You realize Bouillon got something like an hour of PP time and put up a single point on the PP while other guys like even Emelin played 5-10 minutes total over two years and put up 3-4 points. Bou could not have been any worse at his job than he was.

 

[Rapala]

It's funny to suggest Therrien is a "winning coach" and going back to his Pittsburgh days as if it proved something...

... Conveniently ignoring the fact the Pens only went on to win the cup after canning Therrien midway through the 08-09 season.

What is even funnier is folks who think we dominated Tampa and that a poor PP kept us from seeking the Holy Grail, conveniently ignoring our horrid PK throughout the post season.
Were we able to hold our own 5vs5 yes.
Were we able to convert our chances no.
Were we able to take advantage of our man advantage no.
Were we able to shut down the oppositions man advantage no.
Did our goaltender outplay his counterpart no.

Yeah we clearly dominated.

 

[Lebowski]

What is even funnier is folks who think we dominated Tampa and that a poor PP kept us from seeking the Holy Grail, conveniently ignoring our horrid PK throughout the post season.
Were we able to hold our own 5vs5 yes.
Were we able to convert our chances no.
Were we able to take advantage of our man advantage no.
Were we able to shut down the oppositions man advantage no.
Did our goaltender outplay his counterpart no.

Yeah we clearly dominated.

I think it's a double-edged sword, and there's a legitimate argument that can be made from both sides. Things are rarely black and white.

A lot of us complained about the Habs playstyle during the regular season, our poor Corsi, our faith in Price to consistently bail us out, our prolonged ineptitude on the PP... All valid points.

At the same time, you can't really say we didn't improve on those things by the time the playoffs came around. We were indeed dominating Ottawa for the most part, and if not for Anderson whom always seem to play well against us, the series might have ended even quicker. I think it's fair to say we held our ground pretty damn well against Tampa at even strength.

What killed us is our poor special units, both PK and PP. Again, a lot of that blame falls on the coaching staff's shoulders... But not all of it. We lacked opportunism against Tampa. It's not that we didn't generate chances, we simply struggled mightily to convert on them. And blaming Therrien for that would be unfair.

My biggest beef with Therrien and co. is their inability to get a stable, effective game plan going. For the last 2 years, the defense has looked like headless chickens. The power-play has struggled to even generate decent scoring chances, let alone score timely goals. The ever present favoritism complaints towards certain players are also very real, and very well documented. All of those things, and more, can be attributable to Therrien and his staff. Does it enable Bergevin to fire him following up a 110 points season? I don't think so. I would argue the 4 years extension to the coaching staff was a mistake from Bergevin, but at this stage, he has his hands tied, even if he truly wanted to move on from Therrien.

 

[Milhouse40]

BREAKING NEWS: NHL COACHES NOT ALLOWED TO BE FRIENDS WITH THEIR PLAYERS AFTER HAVING FOLLOWED THEM THEIR WHOLE CAREER STARTING FROM THE JUNIORS.

MORE AT 9 : IS WATER REALLY WET??

And before you say, NO; his sympathy for Bouillon doesnt necessarily translates into a bias in usage. YES, he used him on the 2nd wave of the PP but it's not like there were too many options back then and it's not like Bouillon did a poor job of it either. He cycled the puck as well as any 2nd wave PP d-man could be expected to.

Hopefully you realize that Bouillon is/was far from being the only d-man in the NHL who played the PP when they shouldnt have been because of a lack of options.

Being friend is one thing......but Therrien is a coach and as a coach you have to be impartial and he wasn't. Bouillon got tons of PP ahead of guys like Diaz, Weber, Emelin, Gorges, Beaulieu,....freaking Mike Weaver (who only played 17 games vs 52 for Bouillon) was more productive than Bouillon offensively.

But it was Bouillon on the PP....cause you know....he's never been known for his offensive output....but he was friend with the coach.

His friendship with Bouillon was being placed ahead of team's success and that's being a bad coach.
Coach can be friend with players, but that's the job of the assistant...and even there, the bosses should stay the bosses for hockey decision.
Coach have favorites....but they are usually the best players on the team also most of the time.
Therrien have favorites like Ouellet, Desharnais, Bouillon, Weise, Armstrong, Gorges, Moen....and somehow gave hard times to guys like Subban, Galchenyuk, Eller, Sekac, Beaulieu, Tinordi....

 

[Ezpz]

Bouillon-Gorges is likely the worst PP defense unit in NHL history.

 

[Kriss E]

Do you understand how ridiculous "we had 110pts, the coach should be fired!" is?

Of course I do. It is ridiculous. That's why nobody ever suggested he should get fired because the team put up 110pts.
Do you think all you need to look at is the amount of points gathered when evaluating a coach? If that's the case, why even watch the games?.

 

[Rapala]

Of course I do. It is ridiculous. That's why nobody ever suggested he should get fired because the team put up 110pts.
Do you think all you need to look at is the amount of points gathered when evaluating a coach? If that's the case, why even watch the games?.

The dressing room will decide when MT's time has come.
When his message no longer passes the points WILL dry up.

 

[Kriss E]

That wasn't the premise. Smokey was going on about how Eichel player 21 minutes last night, and this somehow proved how much of an idiot Therrien is.

And yes coaches do have favorites and it's tied to success. You trust individuals in certain situations. As long as you keep getting results it is hard to change. I understand how some wanted Subban to play more in difficult situations early on, but looking at the finished product you cannot argue the success. Yet Therrien gets no credit with developing the youth of this team.

BTW - I am not arguing the opposite of the detractors - there are aspects of Therrien that I don't appreciate - but I am humble enough to acknowledge that I don't have the whole picture and I am not privy to the dressing room. What is unimpeachable is his record and what players choose to say publicly. You have to go through some Olympic level gymnastic to only see the negative of Therrien.

That's true, his record is a fact. Indisputable. Endorsements from players are also great. The issue with that though is there isn't too many people out there willing to publicly criticize their coach or GMs. There isn't too many players like Thornton who will flat out say in the media that their GM should shut up. I'm sure a guy like Bouillon would have nothing but good things to say about Therrien. Can the same be said of Sekac?? So, while endorsements are great, they don't really mean much. We just rarely ever hear the other side of the medal.
I'm not saying they're made up, I'm sure Therrien brings good things to this group.
There are also a some bad things.

The problem on this board is if anything is brought up, it isn't actually discussed, it's just shrugged off. It's repeatedly done. When I brought up Bouillon on the PP, I was met with the ''you're not there, I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason for this decision''. When I asked about Murray, same thing. PK being benched over Murray, same thing. I ask why we dump and chase so much, why we are completely lost in our zone, why do we have a terrible transition game, people said I'm a hater constantly questioning the coach and that you know, maybe it's the players poorly executing the play for 2-3 years.
Smokey brought up the Eichel's ice time. He's not entirely wrong, Galchenyuk should get way more ice time. But Eichel is playing on a terrible Buffalo team, he'll get a high level of ice time right away.

You're right, if your favorites bring you success, it's hard to argue against it. DD with Patches didn't make us win anything though. Bouillon was regularly used on the PP and it yielded no result. Therrien has a history there too with Ouellet in Pittsburgh where fans simply could never rationalize his over usage of that player.

Therrien has brought in a good atmosphere and work ethic to this team. Even though the team somehow seems to always be a slow starter, you rarely see any lazy shifts. I mean, some lazy back checking is always going to happen but generally speaking, the team battles hard. Team spirit seems very good and the players seem to buy into his message moving along all in sync. Patches, PK, Price have grown in terms of leadership under him. Whether or not they would have blossomed the same under a different coach is really anybody's guess. What we know is that it did happen under his watch, so I have no problem giving him credit for it.
However, to me, the most important part of coaching is the structure, the Xs and Os and bench management. Those two things Therrien doesn't seem to be quite good at.

 

[Miller Time]

The dressing room will decide when MT's time has come.
When his message no longer passes the points WILL dry up.

do you really think guys like Subban and Price are going to stop caring/trying/competing just because they don't like or agree with the coach?

with that kind of talent and competitiveness leading the charge in the room, it would take pretty drastic failures from the coach for them to completely give up. THe key talent/leaders on this roster aren't the same as were in place during the cunneyworth/martin/gauthier fiasco.

aside from that, what is the point of having a GM, if it has to get to the point where the players resort to mailing it in for a change to take place?

If our GM is that weak/lacking in leadership, then we have two spots that need replacement.

Players job is to compete to the best of their ability.

Coaches job is to get the most out of the talent available to him.

GM's job is to make sure the coach is doing his job well with the talent he assembles.

 

[OnTheRun]

Which actually beg the questions... What is Therrien's X-factor? What does he brings to the team that no other coach could brings? And how this "special talent" is contributing to the team success?

 

[Ezpz]

Which actually beg the questions... What is Therrien's X-factor? What does he brings to the team that no other coach could brings? And how this "special talent" is contributing to the team success?

Rispek.

 

[Miller Time]

That's easy.....DD, Fleishmann and Weise

Fleishmann has scored 16 goals in the last 2yrs and only 1 in 14 games with the run and gun Ducks, so please do not pin this on the coach and talk about how good he WAS!! With that great team in Anaheim, he was on pace for 6 goals for the season., not really a scoring juggernaut eh!.......and Weise should be on the 4th line, he's an energy guy that can score the odd goal.

As for DD......well we know his story, over documented on these boards.

When..and I stress when, McCarron finds his game and he will, Third line right winger will be a nice spot for him, Scherbak beside Galchenyuk when he finds his game and Hudon as third line winger.

They may all make the team or they may all faulter....the only way to find out is to play them. I understand why they didn't play them this year, first year in the pros and all, but I expect the Habs to be a better team offensively when these 3 make the team on a permanent basis.

the comment i was responding to was your assumption that those 3 prospects will/would be offensive upgrades once they make the roster (or if they make the roster).

my comment in response was to point out that there aren't 3 players in our top-9 who are so inept offensively that it's a given that those 3 prospects will be definitive upgrades once they crack the lineup.


more interesting though, in your response above, is that you replaced Eller with DD in identifying the 3 weakest offensive links in our top-9.

looking solely at offensive ability, as much as i am a fan of eller's overall game, i don't know that i'd agree with you... but if you were right, doesn't that just further validate my point re. the offensive struggles/limitations being more a result of poor usage/deployment/coaching structure, than lack of talent?

 

[Nynja*]

1) mixing up lines is difficult to transition to and from. It's hard to work your way back to regular lines once the PP is over. This is not a small issue.

Really? Because I know a certain team who does this and has won 3 cups in 6 years.

 

[Miller Time]

Which actually beg the questions... What is Therrien's X-factor? What does he brings to the team that no other coach could brings? And how this "special talent" is contributing to the team success?

strong ties to the local media
francophone

 

[jaffy27]

the comment i was responding to was your assumption that those 3 prospects will/would be offensive upgrades once they make the roster (or if they make the roster).

my comment in response was to point out that there aren't 3 players in our top-9 who are so inept offensively that it's a given that those 3 prospects will be definitive upgrades once they crack the lineup.


more interesting though, in your response above, is that you replaced Eller with DD in identifying the 3 weakest offensive links in our top-9.

looking solely at offensive ability, as much as i am a fan of eller's overall game, i don't know that i'd agree with you... but if you were right, doesn't that just further validate my point re. the offensive struggles/limitations being more a result of poor usage/deployment/coaching structure, than lack of talent?

I replaced Eller with DD??....where did I say that DD is better than Eller? DD doesn't even make my team let alone surpass Eller?? Lol I never even mentioned Eller...why do you make up stuff or make false assumptions?

I mentioned to you the top 3 weaknesses in our top 9 and that's the entire 3rd line..but heh, that's just my POV. Throw Eller on that third line (C), Scherbak beside Galchenyuk, and the two other kids beside Eller or at least 1 of them and in MY POV (WHEN those kids are ready), I believe they are a better team. Of course I'm going on assumption here, there's no guarantee that they will be great but we can also say because of their pedigree, they can be very good.

What I do know is DD is a marginal NHLer that will give you some points but suck defensively, Fleishmann is on the decline and Weise is a part time third liner full time fourth liner.

As for deployment, you cannot put DD as a second line LW, he's just not big enough and will never win the board battles, Therrien is forced to put him as Third line centre (unless you got a better spot for him...and no you can't sit him out).

Anyways...watching Jays baseball!!!

 

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Yeah... no.

Beaulieu was a great option. Hell, put a forward there as an alternative. As for Cube being effective, you have got to be kidding.

Beaulieu wasnt an option back then, only Emelin was.

As far as cycling the puck and keeping it in the o-zone goes, Bouillon did a fine job. He wasnt good by any stretch but he wasnt making too many mistakes. Plus it takes us back to my previous statement, Bouillon was/is far from being the only defenseman playing on the PP who didnt belong there. When you have no good options for the 2nd wave, you go with what you have.

Oh, and he did try a forward. He tried Plekanec on the point, if i recall right. Didnt quite work out at all.

 

[Mr Jackpot]

... Conveniently ignoring the fact the Pens only went on to win the cup after canning Therrien midway through the 08-09 season.

Under who did Pittsburgh reached the Cup finals the year before and gave them a lot of playoff experience?

Who taught all those young players to reach another level? The Letang, Fleury, Staal, Talbot,....

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Beaulieu wasnt an option back then, only Emelin was.

Totally disagree. Beaulieu was a much better option than either Murray or Cube. MT simply chose to go with two of the worst statisical blueliners in the league instead.

And when Beau was paired with either of these guys their numbers went up. He was much better than either one of those guys were.

As far as cycling the puck and keeping it in the o-zone goes, Bouillon did a fine job. He wasnt good by any stretch but he wasnt making too many mistakes.

He was terrible across the board. He produced an incredible amount of nothingness for the huge amount of time he got on the PP. His usage can't be justified. It was a colossal waste of time putting him there and our PP suffered greatly for it. You are grasping at straws if you have to actually try to argue that Cube was the right call on the PP.

Under who did Pittsburgh reached the Cup finals the year before and gave them a lot of playoff experience?

Who taught all those young players to reach another level? The Letang, Fleury, Staal, Talbot,....

He had a stacked team and still managed to have them bottom third everywhere. He lost to the Wings with Hossa and Bylsma won with Hossa on the other roster.

Sorry but I'm not going to credit MT just because he happened to be coaching two generational talents (who were predicted to be generational before they came into the league.) Please don't sit there and try to convince us that he's the guy who made Crosby and Malkin superstars because that argument is laughable.

 

[Mr Jackpot]

He had a stacked team and still managed to have them bottom third everywhere. He lost to the Wings with Hossa and Bylsma won with Hossa on the other roster.

Did you just say that Therrien reached the Cup finals because he had a stacked team?

And the only one who mentionned that Therrien made Crosby and Malkin a superstar, is you.

 

[Nynja*]

And the only one who mentionned that Therrien made Crosby and Malkin a superstar, is you.

Try again...