Therrien - New Season Edition

[Mr Jackpot]

Like I said in post #276, according to you:

-Michel Therrien made the stanley cup final because he had a stacked team

According to me? I'm sure you can provides the post(s) where I said any of that.

This is getting pretty silly the Pens were stacked in 2007-08 and they were stacked in 2008-09.

There you go

Now stop putting words in my mouth, concede and move on

You just said it yourself, they were stacked. There's a reason why I asked you how did Therrien made the Cup finals.

 

[OnTheRun]

This guy...

When you reach the point where you need to alter your own self-quote to make them seems like they "fit" in the context and the chronology of your "source" are in the future of your "claim" and only works because you slashed off 95% of your own post... you need to take a step back...

Like I said, concede and move on. You're just embarrassing yourself now.

 

[Mr Jackpot]

Dude there's a reason why I asked you how did Therrien made the Cup finals.

There was only one and only answer: Pittsburgh were stacked.

Just like the question: how did Therrien take the Habs and made them one of the best team in the league?

There's only one and only answer: Carey Price

This is your answer for the 2 questions, your hockey knowledge is limited to that.

 

[digmor crusher]

Dude there's a reason why I asked you how did Therrien made the Cup finals.

There was only one and only answer: Pittsburgh were stacked.

Just like the question: how did Therrien take the Habs and made them one of the best team in the league?

There's only one and only answer: Carey Price

This is your answer for the 2 questions, your hockey knowledge is limited to that.

This is just so wrong it barely qualifies a response.

 

[Miller Time]

Of course I'm going on assumption here, there's no guarantee that they will be great but we can also say because of their pedigree, they can be very good.

What I do know is DD is a marginal NHLer that will give you some points but suck defensively, Fleishmann is on the decline and Weise is a part time third liner full time fourth liner.

- i agree that we have some prospects that could become very good pro's

- i agree that DD is a marginal NHLer

my point to you is that, given how our current HC manages the talent at his disposal (and the mediocre/individual excellence reliant outcomes we observe) there is very little reason to believe that adding young players with offensive talent will lead to an improved offensive production from our team.

the poor offensive performances we've seen aren't a result of lack of talent, they are the result of very inadequate leadership. until that changes, nothing short of adding elite superstars of PK/Price caliber will give us the improved offensive output this team is lacking.

 

[ColinO]

Really? Because I know a certain team who does this and has won 3 cups in 6 years.

Yes. That's why later in that post you half-quoted I said we shou try it.

 

[jaffy27]

- i agree that we have some prospects that could become very good pro's

- i agree that DD is a marginal NHLer

my point to you is that, given how our current HC manages the talent at his disposal (and the mediocre/individual excellence reliant outcomes we observe) there is very little reason to believe that adding young players with offensive talent will lead to an improved offensive production from our team.

the poor offensive performances we've seen aren't a result of lack of talent, they are the result of very inadequate leadership. until that changes, nothing short of adding elite superstars of PK/Price caliber will give us the improved offensive output this team is lacking.

Pacioretty is the third highest goal scorer in the league in the last few years, Subban is a top scoring defenseman in the league, we have 2 young scorers under 23 that are hitting the 20-25 goal mark and will only get better and all this with a bad PP, the top scorers are good and are not suffering because of player deployment by the coach. (At least Most of the time)

I'll admit, Therrien is as stubborn as a mule sometimes and he seems to give preferential treatment to certain players....there's no way DD should be getting more ice-time then Galchenyuk and it vexes me right off!!...or when he gives dirty looks to players after a bad shift, just seems like not a very good way to get the best out of your players. I just don't see though where Therrien is as bad as people here portray him.

I respect your opinions and hope the season will sort itself off where we see our players enjoying offensive success along with team success.

 

[Whitesnake]

I'd love to know who exactly is having tons of fun watching this team. And no....you can't tell me Subban is fun to watch. We're talking about a TEAM here.

 

[McGuires Corndog]

I'd love to know who exactly is having tons of fun watching this team. And no....you can't tell me Subban is fun to watch. We're talking about a TEAM here.

Chucky/Beaulieu are fun to watch too.

But yeah, this is a terrible brand of hockey and I don't see how anyone can say it's efficient. It's efficient because Price is Price, no reason NOT to be more aggressive when you have Carey back there.

 

[sharks9]

I'd love to know who exactly is having tons of fun watching this team. And no....you can't tell me Subban is fun to watch. We're talking about a TEAM here.

Winning is fun and our TEAM does that a lot

 

[Whitesnake]

Chucky/Beaulieu are fun to watch too.

But yeah, this is a terrible brand of hockey and I don't see how anyone can say it's efficient. It's efficient because Price is Price, no reason NOT to be more aggressive when you have Carey back there.

I don't think it's efficient either...but let say it is. Still, this game is supposed to be pleasant to watch. Incredible that you watch almost every other game not involving the Habs....and you see how fun and great this game is. You go back to a Habs game that seems so much slower....and you feel like you're watching a chess game compared to a racing game....

And I can talk about eveyr team out there adn get 2 or 3 guys out of each team and say they are fun to watch it doesn't make the team in itself fun to watch. Totally the case for me with the Habs right now. Like I said before, I watch this team to win 'cause it's my Habs team....but the fun part....I watch almost everything else. So they better be efficient and win 'cause if they lose and aren't fun in the process....they will lose more than games.....

 

[Whitesnake]

Winning is fun and our TEAM does that a lot

Yeah. That 2 points at the end of the game is a whole lot of fun. It's most of the 60 minutes before that that is challenging to watch. It's not all black, there are some good moments. Really fun to see Price doing it all and stopping everybody, that's certain. But I always thought that there need to be a spectacle about it. 'Cause in the end, if the win is all that matters, we could very well just look at the score when it's all said and done. And be happy with the win......while watching a REAL fun game. By saying that the only win is enough to find a game fun, is kinda admitting that we love the Habs more than the game itself....I think I love the game more nowadays.

Anyway, I guess for some it's not important. Not a problem. To each their own. Just saying....the day we start losing....what will be left? That will be the real challenge. But I guess that with Price in net....losing is pretty tough to do. And at one point, all that winning will need to translate into something in the playoffs. Like at least reaching the Cup Finals to have that thrill again. And kinda winning it too before we lose that Price in net.

 

[sergejean]

Yeah. That 2 points at the end of the game is a whole lot of fun. It's most of the 60 minutes before that that is challenging to watch. It's not all black, there are some good moments. Really fun to see Price doing it all and stopping everybody, that's certain. But I always thought that there need to be a spectacle about it. 'Cause in the end, if the win is all that matters, we could very well just look at the score when it's all said and done. And be happy with the win......while watching a REAL fun game. By saying that the only win is enough to find a game fun, is kinda admitting that we love the Habs more than the game itself....I think I love the game more nowadays.

Anyway, I guess for some it's not important. Not a problem. To each their own. Just saying....the day we start losing....what will be left? That will be the real challenge. But I guess that with Price in net....losing is pretty tough to do. And at one point, all that winning will need to translate into something in the playoffs. Like at least reaching the Cup Finals to have that thrill again. And kinda winning it too before we lose that Price in net.

Bingo! This is absolutely my case. I love the game don't get me wrong but if I was given the choice, I would prefer the Habs winning a "boring" Stanley Cup final than getting eliminated in OT of a 7 game nail biting series. At the end, as far as I am concern, winning trumps everything else.

 

[Whitesnake]

Bingo! This is absolutely my case. I love the game don't get me wrong but if I was given the choice, I would prefer the Habs winning a "boring" Stanley Cup final than getting eliminated in OT of a 7 game nail biting series. At the end, as far as I am concern, winning trumps everything else.

But I have nothing against quite a few "boring" games. Nature of the beast....guys can't be playing at 150% all of the time, same thing for the team they are facing. And CLEARLY, winning a boring Cup would also diminuish the boring factor. We are so not there yet. Getting in a 3rd round last year means NOTHING as far as moving to the next level. And don't take my words....take our own coach and GM who said it themselves. But in the meantime, we are NOT in the playoffs. We are watching a whole 82-game season when, at one point, the fun part, while winning, still should be there. I don't think it is that much because of the system employed and the quality of the players. Which, of course, does not mean that Subban, Pacioretty and Price aren't quality hockey players....

I can totally do with seeing tough and tight checked winning playoffs myself. But would appreciate that the big 82-game preREALseason would be funnier to watch.

 

[Milhouse40]

Dude there's a reason why I asked you how did Therrien made the Cup finals.

There was only one and only answer: Pittsburgh were stacked.

Just like the question: how did Therrien take the Habs and made them one of the best team in the league?

There's only one and only answer: Carey Price

This is your answer for the 2 questions, your hockey knowledge is limited to that.

- Putting Bouillon on the PP for 2 years in a row without any kind of results and while having tons of better options.

- Putting the same actors and strategy on the PP 95% of the time for 2 years and expecting better results.

- Not putting once your 5 best offensive players on the PP at the same time (switching lines) even when the game is on the line in the PO.

- For 3 full years plus even last game : Playing Desharnais more than Galchenyuk and playing DD ahead of Galchy as your "go-to-guy" offensively and on the PP.

- Killing a very good offensive line (The EGG line) for no good reasons. Killing it was one thing, but never put it back together even if this team sucked offensively for many many stretches. Not to mention all those dumbass experiment that resulted in nothing.

- Killing the Galchenyuk experiment at center last year despite a good start....and we know the end results was that our top 2 center didn't do the job in the PO AND Galchenyuk was nowhere to be found since he got back on the wing. Lost his confidence. (And Therrien lying to the media saying it was Chucky's decision while it wasn't)

- Not giving any kind of real chances to young players not named Gallagher. Eller still never got his even in the PO where he was on fire....took Galchy 3 years to get to center. Beaulieu is still use as a bottom D. Sekac was bench first chance he get. Tinordi got no confidence. Bournival, Andrighetto, De La Rose and others has been used in situations they can't succeed.

- Playing crappy players way too much : Gonchar, Bouillon, Armstrong, Moen, Desharnais, Gionta, Emelin, Gorges, Murray, Weise, Bourque and so on.

- Accepting new players without knowing how to use them : Sekac, Briere, PAP, Weaver and even Vanek for example.

- After 3 full years, he still uses the groundwork made by Martin and Cunneyworth. There's not any new approach, no new core line-up...he just add-up from what those two coaches did.

- Still pointing fingers in his Press conference, sometimes he even trashed some on his own players (Remember Sekac and Eller last year? Or White). But on the other hand, he's never accountable for anything, never take blame and even challenge the medias when some of his bad move came up.

- Took 3 years for Plekanec to get a sniff at playing with Pacioretty cause Therrien always seems to go back for Pacioretty-DD combo, which never been a really dominant line. Productive but a long shot from being dominant.

- Doing really stupid in-games mistakes like not sending 2 center in the D-zone for a crucial face-off with 30 sec. left. Placing 3 very small players on the same line. Sending Martin St-Pierre on a crucial PP. Sending PAP on the point on the PP and he scored a goal just to never tried that again. Not taking out your goalie with 2 minutes left in the game and being down 3-1...and say publicly that it wasn't worth it...

- Unable to control his emotions. It's really easy to get inside Therrien's head. Saw it against Ottawa ('13) in the PO, saw it again against The Rangers in the PO. He can get really mad and stop coaching, we see that often.

- Having a system where player are scared to try the high risk/high rewards play, killing the creativity of some of his best players. Skilled players have to play like grinders. Young rookies have a hard times getting their confidence high. Most players that leave Therrien's team mostly all said this.

- In 3 years now, we are yet to see a top 6 line that is genuine. A top 6 line that actually is dominant. We switch lines, try some of the most unsustainable line-up like Weise on the top 6 but in the end, we never even had ONE top 6 line that we can rely on and keep together for more than 10 games. Even when we got Vanek, he wasn't able to put a dominant line.

And i can go on and on and on and on.....it's all over the place. I can go with his time in Pittsburgh when he trashed his whole defense-corps, when he prone violent retributions, how he used Ouellet.......

You should ask yourself....How a coach can go from the Stanley Cup finals to being fired 6 months later?
He was supposedly next in line in Minnesota when he got hired, but that team went with another coach when the time come.
He was on l'Anti-Chambre before getting back behind a bench....what took so long?

How a coach get to the Stanley Cup Finals, then 6 months later get fired and despite TONS of coaching changes, got unemployed for 4 years.
Therrien said it himself (and was really proud of it).....it was the first time a team actually hired him for HC job in the NHL....got all the other jobs a little by default, he said exactly that himself.

 

[TheBlindFan]

I'm looking at 90% of the game since the last 15 years. When the players playing great and give effort, I enjoy the game even if we lost.

The last 3 years are better the the mid - 1990 to mid -2000 period by a good merge. Not only the hab or winning more and more, both the effort is there almost every night. The players enjoy the game, it clear, and there in a winning environment... want to win.

Cannot believe that the "MT is bad", and the "i know better" keep you guys for not liking the game.

There is plenty of teams and plenty of other sport... 82 game, 2h30 each plus the playoff... If you find it boring, there plenty of other stuff to do!

 

[Milhouse40]

I'm looking at 90% of the game since the last 15 years. When the players playing great and give effort, I enjoy the game even if we lost.

The last 3 years are better the the mid - 1990 to mid -2000 period by a good merge. Not only the hab or winning more and more, both the effort is there almost every night. The players enjoy the game, it clear, and there in a winning environment... want to win.

Cannot believe that the "MT is bad", and the "i know better" keep you guys for not liking the game.

There is plenty of teams and plenty of other sport... 82 game, 2h30 each plus the playoff... If you find it boring, there plenty of other stuff to do!

I will add this to my last post.

I don't think Therrien is the worst coach in the NHL but thinking he's a good one, it's a different story. If we were a middle of the pack team or a team just wanting to get into the PO, Therrien would be fine. But we're at the crossroads, it's time to push for Cup Contender. I highly doubt Therrien is the coach to do that....Pittsburgh seems to have same feelings and move on from Therrien just to actually win the Cup.

 

[sergejean]

But I have nothing against quite a few "boring" games. Nature of the beast....guys can't be playing at 150% all of the time, same thing for the team they are facing. And CLEARLY, winning a boring Cup would also diminuish the boring factor. We are so not there yet. Getting in a 3rd round last year means NOTHING as far as moving to the next level. And don't take my words....take our own coach and GM who said it themselves. But in the meantime, we are NOT in the playoffs. We are watching a whole 82-game season when, at one point, the fun part, while winning, still should be there. I don't think it is that much because of the system employed and the quality of the players. Which, of course, does not mean that Subban, Pacioretty and Price aren't quality hockey players....

I can totally do with seeing tough and tight checked winning playoffs myself. But would appreciate that the big 82-game preREALseason would be funnier to watch.

I agree with you too many games are boring to watch but that's league wide, not only in Montreal. The problem is the season is too long and teams are more or less equals except for a few.

I more or less gave up on the regular season last year and I used to watch all 82 games from beginning to end for years... Now I still watch most games but I rarely watch the full game unless it's playoff.

And since this is a Therrien thread... as much as I would like to hold him responsible for the boring Habs games, the reality is that all teams pretty much play the same system for the most part. I smile when I hear/read about players needing time to adjust after being traded... The NHL reality as I see it is that unless you have a team who can really overpower the opponent with speed/talent then you want to minimize quality scoring chances and keep the opponent on the outside when defending. In offense, it's mostly crashing the net while one or two players are converging and screening the goalie hoping for a deflection or a rebound.

This game could be so much more than what it is right now.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Failing to prove that MT is as bad as they claim, his critics have now decided to turn their attention to him ruining their enjoyment of the games by having a boring system. It's true, we do have a system that is conservative and aimed at reducing odd man rushes and rebounds at the cost of zone entries/pretty plays. It can be annoying to see those stretch passes not connect and results in icings. All fair criticisms. But where were these honest critics when Martin was coaching the team ? The team was in no way more entertaining offensively, and worse they didn't win games as much, nor did they make more room for rookies... worse if they didn't score the first goal you always had the feeling it was game over.. yet... I don't recall anywhere near the same venom directed Martin's way. A bit like the criticism for Gainey/Bergevin, and Gomez/DD. It looks to me like the previous regime had way more rope with some around here... a bit unfair... I know what will be the answer to this.. it's that Price/Patch/Subban have become stars so more is expected.. however... they have become stars under MT/MB. There's a reason for that.

Funny thing is that I was one of the posters who doubted MB/MT the most when they first arrived. I was in complete disagreement with the way they handled Subban. But they've won me over. Our players have progressed ever since they've come on board. The team has gotten better every year. And it's because of the people in charge. Price was a hobbit in his hole who had crumbled under the pressure of Montreal after MB's and MT's first year. They brought in Waite, and tightened things up defensively leading to a more boring system but... Price has been shining ever since. Pacioretty evolved from streaky sniper into a 2-way top 5 goal scorer captain. Subban has a more well-rounded and mature game. What I see here is a system and a support cast that is enabling our big names and our strengths yet I often read that it makes no sense to play conservative hockey when you have Price in nets.. tell that to the NJ devils. It makes all the sense in the world to enable your best players, and play to their strength. Even Price wouldn't be able to stop pucks like he is if we gave up odd man rushes, never took care of rebounds and screened him all the time. It's another thing I've noticed the habs do a good job of not screening Price. In the past (3+ years ago) I kept complaining about Price's puck tracking abilities through traffic, but part of it was us allowing these shots to go through to Price, screening him and not blocking them. We've cleaned up our game on that aspect. Many other small details like that which all add up. And I know some will read into this that I am saying "MT makes them the best"... but all I'm saying is that MT brings something to the table. He has the guys focused on the important things. It might not be pretty all the time, but it can't be denied that we are effective, even if the "advanced" shot based stats aren't very good which btw I suspect will improve this year. I doubt that this first game against Toronto will be indicative of the entire season. We obviously will play better games than that. But I've also always thought our shot ratio and puck possesion will improve once we add some more offensive punch up front. I was hopeful that Kassian/Semin would play a part in this but we know what happened with Kassian, and Semin is so slow, I have huge doubts he'll be a productive player for us.. or for anyone ever again. It's still very early though, I'll give him some time to figure it out, perhaps he has some tricks up his sleeve. Ultimately... the only way our offense really improves this year is if the PP is better, with Beaulieu/Galchenyuk improving, and with the addition of Petry. But we also have to expect a decline with Plekanec..

Still, it would be nice if people could simply enjoy the wins and not complain so much. Because it is complaining... we've only played the one game... everyone realizes from Subban to Patch to MT that we have things to fix. The regular season is a long long long road... there will be many ups and downs.. and the way we played in those 82 games will only matter in determining if we have made the playoffs, our opponent, if we're healthy going into them, and if we have developed the right habits and are ready to compete.

Or we could try to find new ways to complain about MT after game #1 which we won... it will be a long season if so...

 

[Yoor]

Really? Because I know a certain team who does this and has won 3 cups in 6 years.

Ding ding ding.....i really believe we need to start doing this. There is nobway that it is too hard to transition back to regular lines...this is the nhl here c'mon....

 

[Habs]

Failing to prove that MT is as bad as they claim, his critics have now decided to turn their attention to him ruining their enjoyment of the games by having a boring system. It's true, we do have a system that is conservative and aimed at reducing odd man rushes and rebounds at the cost of zone entries/pretty plays. It can be annoying to see those stretch passes not connect and results in icings. All fair criticisms. But where were these honest critics when Martin was coaching the team ? The team was in no way more entertaining offensively, and worse they didn't win games as much, nor did they make more room for rookies... worse if they didn't score the first goal you always had the feeling it was game over.. yet... I don't recall anywhere near the same venom directed Martin's way. A bit like the criticism for Gainey/Bergevin, and Gomez/DD. It looks to me like the previous regime had way more rope with some around here... a bit unfair... I know what will be the answer to this.. it's that Price/Patch/Subban have become stars so more is expected.. however... they have become stars under MT/MB. There's a reason for that.

Funny thing is that I was one of the posters who doubted MB/MT the most when they first arrived. I was in complete disagreement with the way they handled Subban. But they've won me over. Our players have progressed ever since they've come on board. The team has gotten better every year. And it's because of the people in charge. Price was a hobbit in his hole who had crumbled under the pressure of Montreal after MB's and MT's first year. They brought in Waite, and tightened things up defensively leading to a more boring system but... Price has been shining ever since. Pacioretty evolved from streaky sniper into a 2-way top 5 goal scorer captain. Subban has a more well-rounded and mature game. What I see here is a system and a support cast that is enabling our big names and our strengths yet I often read that it makes no sense to play conservative hockey when you have Price in nets.. tell that to the NJ devils. It makes all the sense in the world to enable your best players, and play to their strength. Even Price wouldn't be able to stop pucks like he is if we gave up odd man rushes, never took care of rebounds and screened him all the time. It's another thing I've noticed the habs do a good job of not screening Price. In the past (3+ years ago) I kept complaining about Price's puck tracking abilities through traffic, but part of it was us allowing these shots to go through to Price, screening him and not blocking them. We've cleaned up our game on that aspect. Many other small details like that which all add up. And I know some will read into this that I am saying "MT makes them the best"... but all I'm saying is that MT brings something to the table. He has the guys focused on the important things. It might not be pretty all the time, but it can't be denied that we are effective, even if the "advanced" shot based stats aren't very good which btw I suspect will improve this year. I doubt that this first game against Toronto will be indicative of the entire season. We obviously will play better games than that. But I've also always thought our shot ratio and puck possesion will improve once we add some more offensive punch up front. I was hopeful that Kassian/Semin would play a part in this but we know what happened with Kassian, and Semin is so slow, I have huge doubts he'll be a productive player for us.. or for anyone ever again. It's still very early though, I'll give him some time to figure it out, perhaps he has some tricks up his sleeve. Ultimately... the only way our offense really improves this year is if the PP is better, with Beaulieu/Galchenyuk improving, and with the addition of Petry. But we also have to expect a decline with Plekanec..

Still, it would be nice if people could simply enjoy the wins and not complain so much. Because it is complaining... we've only played the one game... everyone realizes from Subban to Patch to MT that we have things to fix. The regular season is a long long long road... there will be many ups and downs.. and the way we played in those 82 games will only matter in determining if we have made the playoffs, our opponent, if we're healthy going into them, and if we have developed the right habits and are ready to compete.

Or we could try to find new ways to complain about MT after game #1 which we won... it will be a long season if so...

You sure make a lot of excuses for a coach who is bailed out by Price every night. The team is lost in the neutral zone , on the breakout and still has no idea what to do in the offensive zone. Sure, 67 will light it up from time to time... that's to be expected.

Look at how we were schooled in last years playoffs by Cooper?

MT has a system that collapses around Price. It does not go past the defensive blue line. That may work 65% of the time in the regular season, but it is exposed on the post season. Can't wait until this clown is gone, and the most boring hockey on earth is gone with him.

 

[Lebowski]

Failing to prove that MT is as bad as they claim, his critics have now decided to turn their attention to him ruining their enjoyment of the games by having a boring system.

It's not about failing to prove that MT is a bad coach. As far as I'm concerned, it's about getting tired of regurgitating the same arguments and seeing it fall on deaf ears. The debates around Therrien, Eller or Desharnais haven't really progressed over the last 2 years. It's the same two sides bickering about the same old points. Most people aren't doing it to debate. It's not about conceding points and challenging their views. It's mindless bickering and a circular argument festival.

I could argue that over the last cumulated 2 seasons, the Habs have had a worse CF%, a worse ZSO%, a worse SCF%, and a worse SF% (all bottom ten in the league, as a matter of fact) than they did under Cunneyworth and the tire fire of a season that was 2011-2012 and ended with us picking Galchenyuk 3rd overall.

The one difference being, of course, Price going from average starter numbers to superhuman level. Our OSv% going up from 91.2% in 2011-2012 to 93.3% over the last two seasons is the biggest, if not the only reason we're not looking at picking in the top 5 again this year. And this isn't a roster issue to me. Far from it. We have a good and capable team that could legitimately aspire at a cup as soon as this year. But we're not playing like one, and haven't looked like one in a long while.

But at least we're winning, right? Not winning anything meaningful, but winning is still winning, I suppose. And since we're winning, we're not allowed to look beyond the fact that this team, the way it has been playing for the better part of Therrien's tenure as head coach of the Habs, simply won't be able to get it done when it matters the most. Relying on a single player exposes you to the fluctuation in the play of said player. Even worse, we're not taking advantage of our competitive advantage in the slightest, namely having the best goalie in the league - scratch that, possibly the best player, plain and simple - by not playing up to our talent in other areas.

And when our own situation doesn't suffice, we can point out to Therrien's days in Pittsburgh, and how eerily similar it went. Abysmal possession stats despite icing one of the best line-up in the league, and let's not pretend Therrien was "making the most out of his situation", as some like to point out as the reason why our team game is lacking.

"Therrien knows he has the best goalie in the league, so he relies on him a lot and plays accordingly."

That's pure ********. Even when he had Crosby and Malkin up front, and a shaky Fleury between the posts, he couldn't figure out how to use his assets to their full potential. He ended up being fired only a few months after making it to the cup final, at a time where the Pens weren't even in a position to make the playoffs, 10th in the east, to be exact. Then Bylsma took over, the Pens' possession numbers sky rocketed, they ended up 4th in the conference, and they went on to win the cup.

The only debatable matter here is whether or not we see ourselves at the same crossroad as the Pens when they fired Therrien. Because we know Therrien isn't getting the most out of our skaters. Not even close. And players seem to acknowledge that too.

"Obviously we'd like to score more, but as long as we're winning the games, that's what matters," Canadiens center Tomas Plekanec said Sept. 8 at the NHL Player Media Tour in Toronto. "A big part of that was [Price], which is the one thing honestly we want to get better at and play better in front of him."

"He's a great goalie, but I think we're a better team than that. But we've got to show that. We've got to show that in the game that we're better. We've got to help him out a little bit more."

"I think we're better than people are saying, but everyone has a right to their opinion," he said. "I don't think we're just about [Price], but we've got to prove that more."

Did they prove that Wednesday?

"Not really," Plekanec said before a wry smile. "But we've got to start somewhere."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=782572

Do people care about all that, though? Will some of the posters that have been rambling on this thread for the last couple of weeks at least acknowledge that there's a problem somewhere? I doubt it. So why bother? If it gives the false sense of being "right" to some people, whatever floats their boat. I predict 3 months from now, we'll be back at square one, saying "but look our record!". Context be damned.

 

[Whitesnake]

But where were these honest critics when Martin was coaching the team ?

Right here. I had the same criticisms for Martin. Sorry.

It looks to me like the previous regime had way more rope with some around here... a bit unfair...

More rope? Well of course...they had to have more rope since they had no team to work with. So we gave Gainey his 5-year plan. Started to NOT gave them rope when they ask for another and started to make stupid mistakes after stupid mistakes. So why do Bergevin and Co don't have as much rope? 'Cause the replacement was done so to propel our team to the other level. We couldn't improve with what we had...and we needed a change to do so. Did it work? Well yeah...we did. First half of a season, finish 1st in the division. whatever that means...but lost in the 1st round. 2nd season, 3rd round lost. That's an improvement. 3rd season, lost in the 2nd round. On top of the world in the regular season....but not the playoffs that goes with it. So we do have good regular seasons for sure. Boring but good. Others like TBay, Ducks and others can be good and exciting. I'd wish we'd be them.

Yet, when you say past administration....you are talking about Gainey right? Not Gauthier...'cause tell me how much rope he had? He had nothing. And I'M not a fan....but I will recognize he had NO freakin rope. LESS than what Bergevin is getting.

Funny thing is that I was one of the posters who doubted MB/MT the most when they first arrived. I was in complete disagreement with the way they handled Subban. But they've won me over. Our players have progressed ever since they've come on board. The team has gotten better every year. And it's because of the people in charge. Price was a hobbit in his hole who had crumbled under the pressure of Montreal after MB's and MT's first year. They brought in Waite, and tightened things up defensively leading to a more boring system but... Price has been shining ever since.

As far as players becomes stars under this administration....come on. It's just called maturity and experience. You seriously think that those guys are responsible for their improvement? That they wouldn't be the players they are if they'd be playing for Cooper or Boudreau or whoever? Why? Yes, one of the Habs best move is Waite. That, I have no doubt, was key to Price's success. No doubt. So good job Bergevin for that. Not going to credit Therrien for Price's success if you don't mind. Subban? Well some would say that Subban became who he is because of how Therrien handled him....some will say that Subban would have become better before if he would have had more room and more confidence giving to him. Whatever....I guess to each their own. You like Therrien, you think he was right. You dislike him, you still think he was wrong. Pacioretty.....well he always had that. Seen him in Michigan for a full year...and actually what he perfected what his goal scoring...not his passing game nor his defensive game. But Therrien uses him in the PK so I guess we will say he did good in that regard. Not liking a guy doesn't mean you can't appreciate some of the things he does by the way.....not all black and white.

Still, it would be nice if people could simply enjoy the wins and not complain so much. Because it is complaining... we've only played the one game... everyone realizes from Subban to Patch to MT that we have things to fix. The regular season is a long long long road... there will be many ups and downs.. and the way we played in those 82 games will only matter in determining if we have made the playoffs, our opponent, if we're healthy going into them, and if we have developed the right habits and are ready to compete.

True. Yeah! We won. But why is it too much a problem to see that still say that we were dominated. That Price had to be miraculous once again. I have no idea why you keep saying how Therrien is just so great and we can't recognize him as the league itself, NOT US, his peers, the league, and whoever has some voting to do, gave 4 trophies to his goalie, and nothing to him. Everybody recognized last year that the Habs ARE Price. And Price's coach....isn't Therrien.

Or we could try to find new ways to complain about MT after game #1 which we won... it will be a long season if so...

The reality is that it's not a fun team to watch. But we do win games. So far. We'll see how this season will progress. And we will see how it will translate into the REAL season.

 

[Habit11]

- Putting Bouillon on the PP for 2 years in a row without any kind of results and while having tons of better options.

- Putting the same actors and strategy on the PP 95% of the time for 2 years and expecting better results.

- Not putting once your 5 best offensive players on the PP at the same time (switching lines) even when the game is on the line in the PO.

- For 3 full years plus even last game : Playing Desharnais more than Galchenyuk and playing DD ahead of Galchy as your "go-to-guy" offensively and on the PP.

- Killing a very good offensive line (The EGG line) for no good reasons. Killing it was one thing, but never put it back together even if this team sucked offensively for many many stretches. Not to mention all those dumbass experiment that resulted in nothing.

- Killing the Galchenyuk experiment at center last year despite a good start....and we know the end results was that our top 2 center didn't do the job in the PO AND Galchenyuk was nowhere to be found since he got back on the wing. Lost his confidence. (And Therrien lying to the media saying it was Chucky's decision while it wasn't)

- Not giving any kind of real chances to young players not named Gallagher. Eller still never got his even in the PO where he was on fire....took Galchy 3 years to get to center. Beaulieu is still use as a bottom D. Sekac was bench first chance he get. Tinordi got no confidence. Bournival, Andrighetto, De La Rose and others has been used in situations they can't succeed.

- Playing crappy players way too much : Gonchar, Bouillon, Armstrong, Moen, Desharnais, Gionta, Emelin, Gorges, Murray, Weise, Bourque and so on.

- Accepting new players without knowing how to use them : Sekac, Briere, PAP, Weaver and even Vanek for example.

- After 3 full years, he still uses the groundwork made by Martin and Cunneyworth. There's not any new approach, no new core line-up...he just add-up from what those two coaches did.

- Still pointing fingers in his Press conference, sometimes he even trashed some on his own players (Remember Sekac and Eller last year? Or White). But on the other hand, he's never accountable for anything, never take blame and even challenge the medias when some of his bad move came up.

- Took 3 years for Plekanec to get a sniff at playing with Pacioretty cause Therrien always seems to go back for Pacioretty-DD combo, which never been a really dominant line. Productive but a long shot from being dominant.

- Doing really stupid in-games mistakes like not sending 2 center in the D-zone for a crucial face-off with 30 sec. left. Placing 3 very small players on the same line. Sending Martin St-Pierre on a crucial PP. Sending PAP on the point on the PP and he scored a goal just to never tried that again. Not taking out your goalie with 2 minutes left in the game and being down 3-1...and say publicly that it wasn't worth it...

- Unable to control his emotions. It's really easy to get inside Therrien's head. Saw it against Ottawa ('13) in the PO, saw it again against The Rangers in the PO. He can get really mad and stop coaching, we see that often.

- Having a system where player are scared to try the high risk/high rewards play, killing the creativity of some of his best players. Skilled players have to play like grinders. Young rookies have a hard times getting their confidence high. Most players that leave Therrien's team mostly all said this.

- In 3 years now, we are yet to see a top 6 line that is genuine. A top 6 line that actually is dominant. We switch lines, try some of the most unsustainable line-up like Weise on the top 6 but in the end, we never even had ONE top 6 line that we can rely on and keep together for more than 10 games. Even when we got Vanek, he wasn't able to put a dominant line.

And i can go on and on and on and on.....it's all over the place. I can go with his time in Pittsburgh when he trashed his whole defense-corps, when he prone violent retributions, how he used Ouellet.......

You should ask yourself....How a coach can go from the Stanley Cup finals to being fired 6 months later?
He was supposedly next in line in Minnesota when he got hired, but that team went with another coach when the time come.
He was on l'Anti-Chambre before getting back behind a bench....what took so long?

How a coach get to the Stanley Cup Finals, then 6 months later get fired and despite TONS of coaching changes, got unemployed for 4 years.
Therrien said it himself (and was really proud of it).....it was the first time a team actually hired him for HC job in the NHL....got all the other jobs a little by default, he said exactly that himself.

To add to this... we also have the numbers per war-on-ice.com last season...

At 5 on 5 the Habs' gave up the 19th most shots against per 60mins but generated the 6th fewest shots for per 60mins. That's a big difference.

In terms of scoring chances against they ranked 20th overall per 60mins and in high-danger scoring chances against 17th overall per 60mins. Both below league average. Offensively at 5 on 5 in terms of scoring chances for they ranked 4th worst overall per 60mins and in high-danger scoring chances for they were 6th worst overall per 60mins.

Then if we look at the Habs' scoring chances and high-danger scoring chances differential at 5 on 5 the Habs' saw them finish 7th worst league wide. They gave up a ton more chances than they generated.

They did manage to concede far fewer shots/scoring chances against while playing shorthanded however, and that was helpful for Price. What wasn't helpful was that they didn't come close to generating as much offence as they were giving up on defence. That difference made his margin for error incredibly slim and of course meant he had to steal wins all season long.

I'm not sure though how one could argue that the Habs' were good defensively last season if none of the numbers line up with them being able to suppress shots or scoring chances to at least average. I'm not sure how any who watched the games objectively could argue it either.

The objective for a coach and his system is to limit shots/chances against and then the opposite at the other end of the rink. This simply was not the case last season, and it's the main reason why Price swept the NHL awards.

That being said, the team did improve in the playoffs last season, and if not for their special teams, they probably have a better outcome against TB who they outshot/chanced/scored at 5 on 5. They unfortunately gave up 7 PP goals and only managed to score 1.

I was optimistic with the what I saw by the end of training camp, and a lot of changes were made that many of us said were necessary. There is plenty of season left for the team not play like they did vs. the Leafs, which is exactly how they played all last season.

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Therrien does not get credit one bit for Price. It is all Waite. Any communication to Price is filtered through Waite, even Therrien. And ****, does Therrien know anything about goaltending anyway to pass onto Price? Therrien is responsible for implementing general principles for his skaters to follow, and his principles or rules are not conducive to winning the battle between skaters.