The Virtues of Development vs. Winning in the AHL (Read OP)

[drax0s]

I'll admit that I haven't watched the first half of Utica's season. Maybe here in lies the problem. I've only started watching since Shinkaruk really became hot. But from what I have seen now is that he is perfectly fine with handling a top 6 role.

Yeah, there were games where you could see Hunter was extremely frustrated -- banging his stick and yelling in frustration. If you want, read back over some of Bad Goalie's reports during his cold streak and you can see even him mentioning it.

Confidence is a tricky thing. Personally, I've brought a lot of junior guys up in my industry and I give them the absolute easiest stuff out there to let them taste success and mastery before I ramp up the challenge. It's worked flawlessly so far. Dropping someone into the deep end and overwhelming them is the quickest way to get someone to quit, both the company and on themselves.

 

[WTG]

Yeah, there were games where you could see Hunter was extremely frustrated -- banging his stick and yelling in frustration. If you want, read back over some of Bad Goalie's reports during his cold streak and you can see even him mentioning it.

Confidence is a tricky thing. Personally, I've brought a lot of junior guys up in my industry and I give them the absolute easiest stuff out there to let them taste success and mastery before I ramp up the challenge. It's worked flawlessly so far. Dropping someone into the deep end and overwhelming them is the quickest way to get someone to quit, both the company and on themselves.

Yeah, maybe you are right.

I'm just a bit frustrated that Hunter is playing good now he still isn't getting #1 pp time. It's a small gripe and I already think I filled up enough pages of me complaining about it.

So unless there is something new to add I'll stop posting about it. Feels like my constant complaining has maybe put some posters off a bit.

 

[UticaHockey]

Some excerpts from the article below.

http://onecanuck.com/on-pro-rookie-ice-time-and-conditioning/

-- "But Virtanen and coach Green noticed something else that might not be obvious to the untrained eye. After spending most of the year getting 20+ minutes at the junior level, Showtime Jake was getting bagged at 12 or 13 minutes of ice time in Utica. While the pace of the game may have been a surprise for the young rookie, it was nothing unusual in Green’s mind.

“I like the energy that he brings. The pace is higher for him here. He’s used to playing big minutes in Calgary, and probably not as high of intensity that he is now, and even today we’ve got him doing extra because right now he’s going hard for 20, 25, 30 seconds and he’s getting tired. I’d like to see where he can get to, by the time we’re done here, where he can play 12-15 minutes of really high energy hockey. 30-second, 40-second shifts at high energy, and you’ve gotta be in real good shape to play that way, and that’s part of the learning that happens down here in the AHL is that players that come from Junior, the biggest thing is that they don’t realize the level of commitment required to play that fast and that hard.
Part of the things we preach here is that were gonna play real fast and were gonna play real hard. We wanna go after teams, we wanna forecheck teams hard, we wanna backcheck hard, and be a real pressure team, but in order to do that, you have to be in phenomenal shape. When you get players from junior that are used to playing 20-25 minutes at a pace that’s slower, it’s harder for them. So that’s what we’re working on right now with Jake and obviously with McCann, and they’re in the weight room a lot more than the other players, because they’re doing a little bit of catch up right now.â€

-- "It seemed that Shinkaruk’s scoring started its dip just as his ice time was on the rise. This could signal a different, and perhaps more prominent reason for why the kids have to start out taking it easy: they’re bodies simply aren’t prepared for it. Since the beginning of the season, the rookies have increased their defensive awareness, becoming better all around players, but they’ve also been spending more time in the gym than the average AHLer. Bulking up is a necessity when making the jump from playing against boys to against men, but it is also about conditioning. Big prospects, like Bo Horvat or Jake Virtanen, that graduate from the CHL already in a man’s body have the physical strength to survive, but are not necessarily in the required shape to sustain it. Horvat got into better and better shape as the NHL season wore on, and it showed in his game. Jake Virtanen is currently experiencing the same thing, which is why Travis Green noted that Jake and Jared McCann are currently spending more time in the gym than any of their teammates, like Shinkaruk and Gaunce were earlier on.

This is why is doesn’t make a ton of sense to get outraged that your 20-year old rookie AHL prospects are only playing 12-13 minutes to start the year in pro hockey. That way well be all they can handle. It’s easy to judge sitting at home and looking and stats and charts, but few Vancouver fans actually get to watch AHL hockey games and see if the rookies are able to keep up with the pace of the game. It’s also important to keep in mind that it is only one year, and that few should have expected Shinkaruk or Gaunce to be ready to make it to the NHL this season. With that in mind, it makes little sense to force them to play 20 minutes a night and hope they can keep up. As they progress, they are rewarded, just like in the NHL.

“Nothing is given, everything is earned†is a line you will hear at all levels, as this has become the developmental mantra of the organization. As can be seen in the above graph, Shinkaruk’s ice time steadily increased from the beginning of the year to the end, and he is now an important offensive factor in their playoff run, as well as more reliable defensively."

 

[carolinacanuck]

^

thanks for this. explains why benning said virtanen needs to have a good summer and get into better shape.

while watching the ducks/blackhawks game last night, i thought to myself the ducks team motors around all over the ice and appear to be in great shape.

meanwhile, the canucks looked slow and old versus the flames in round one.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Some excerpts from the article below.

http://onecanuck.com/on-pro-rookie-ice-time-and-conditioning/

Re: all that stuff^^^.

Very, very good article. Should be required reading for certain people in this thread who shall go nameless (not to say certain nameless people aren't usually excellent contributors to this forum, but still).

^

thanks for this. explains why benning said virtanen needs to have a good summer and get into better shape.

while watching the ducks/blackhawks game last night, i thought to myself the ducks team motors around all over the ice and appear to be in great shape.

meanwhile, the canucks looked slow and old versus the flames in round one.

You forgot scared, clueless, weak, timid, etc etc etc.

 

[Verviticus]

huh? Canucks looked like the better team in the majority of the games

 

[ProstheticConscience]

huh? Canucks looked like the better team in the majority of the games

You must have gone to get a beer every single time the puck was in our end.

 

[FOurteenS inCisOr]

huh? Canucks looked like the better team in the majority of the games

Agreed. Thought they were better in 4 of the 6 games.

Better team doesn't always win, unfortunately.

 

[drax0s]

http://onecanuck.com/on-pro-rookie-ice-time-and-conditioning/

Nice article. Thanks for posting. Do they not have accurate TOI records? I always find the eTOI franken-number a little bit suspect for any sorts of hypothesis about ice-time and usage.

 

[vanuck]

Nice article. Thanks for posting. Do they not have accurate TOI records? I always find the eTOI franken-number a little bit suspect for any sorts of hypothesis about ice-time and usage.

Those numbers aren't meant to be taken literally. To me it seems like they're more useful for the TOI ranking they give.

 

[me2]

Nice article. Thanks for posting. Do they not have accurate TOI records? I always find the eTOI franken-number a little bit suspect for any sorts of hypothesis about ice-time and usage.

I am not a fan of eTOI. Take someone like Jake, he would probably be under estimated. We know he was taking a bunch of shots. Everytime he scores his eTOI goes up, but if he a bad shooting year like this year and is not converting his eTOI does not move.

 

[UticaHockey]

Nice article. Thanks for posting. Do they not have accurate TOI records? I always find the eTOI franken-number a little bit suspect for any sorts of hypothesis about ice-time and usage.

The AHL doesn't release TOI numbers and I don't put a lot of faith in eTOI because they never seem to pass the eye test for actually watching the games.

 

[carolinacanuck]

huh? Canucks looked like the better team in the majority of the games

they got out-worked and out-hustled in their own zone.

maybe it was injuries but certain players on the team just couldn't keep up...higgins, bonino, dorsett all looked painfully slow. i can't remember who else but i remember thinking the team looked so slow compared to calgary.

 

[Verviticus]

they got out-worked and out-hustled in their own zone.

maybe it was injuries but certain players on the team just couldn't keep up...higgins, bonino, dorsett all looked painfully slow. i can't remember who else but i remember thinking the team looked so slow compared to calgary.

ya but the guys that weren't horrible were shredding the flames. basically everyone was ok when they were with hamhuis and horrible with sbieksa

 

[ProstheticConscience]

ya but the guys that weren't horrible were shredding the flames. basically everyone was ok when they were with hamhuis and horrible with sbieksa

So the Sedins, Horvat, and the goalies. That's who I saw who wasn't horrible.

Anyway, this is OT.

nvm.

 

[Askel]

I hope that next year is kind of a rebuild year Utica, I want Cassels, Gaunce, Skinkaruk in big roles, I want Hutton, Subban, playing on the PP. Hopefully Pedan can be the no1 d-man. And i hope that McEneny ,Sautner, Cederholmcan be at least AHL call ups, but hopefully one of them makes as a regular

Also want Fox, Valk and Blomstrand to be part of the Comets .

 

[arsmaster*]

I hope that next year is kind of a rebuild year Utica, I want Cassels, Gaunce, Skinkaruk in big roles, I want Hutton, Subban, playing on the PP. Hopefully Pedan can be the no1 d-man. And i hope that McEneny ,Sautner, Cederholmcan be at least AHL call ups, but hopefully one of them makes as a regular

Also want Fox, Valk and Blomstrand to be part of the Comets .

Same here.

Give them their "contender" this year, and use the AHL like it should be used, as a farm team for the big club, developing prospects.

 

[Bgav]

I hope that next year is kind of a rebuild year Utica, I want Cassels, Gaunce, Skinkaruk in big roles, I want Hutton, Subban, playing on the PP. Hopefully Pedan can be the no1 d-man. And i hope that McEneny ,Sautner, Cederholmcan be at least AHL call ups, but hopefully one of them makes as a regular

Also want Fox, Valk and Blomstrand to be part of the Comets .

Shink Cassels Gaunce
Subban Pedan


On the pp

/drool

 

[Tampacuseforever]

I hope that next year is kind of a rebuild year Utica, I want Cassels, Gaunce, Skinkaruk in big roles, I want Hutton, Subban, playing on the PP. Hopefully Pedan can be the no1 d-man. And i hope that McEneny ,Sautner, Cederholmcan be at least AHL call ups, but hopefully one of them makes as a regular

Also want Fox, Valk and Blomstrand to be part of the Comets .

They will play big roles..........if the EARN it. No free gifts, that is NO WAY do develop talent and it sends all the wrong messages.

 

[Askel]

They will play big roles..........if the EARN it. No free gifts, that is NO WAY do develop talent and it sends all the wrong messages.

I dont agree, in the Ahl you should make roles for the prospects, Gaunce, Skinkaruk and Cassels should be given at least 2nd line PP time. I think they will produce in it if they fail after 40 games then you bring in veterans.

Ihope that the tool 6 in Utica looks something like
Skinkaruk-Oreilly-Grenier
Gaunce-Cassels-Conacher

Im not saying that we should have a veteran free team in Utica, but I want the prospects to be in the top 6, not sign to many AHL:ers to block them is a way to do that.

On defence I don't have a problem with guys like Huskins, Biega, Sanguinetti, its the NEgrins Ehrharts, Lafranchise typs I don't the use for.

 

[Tampacuseforever]

I dont agree, in the Ahl you should make roles for the prospects, Gaunce, Skinkaruk and Cassels should be given at least 2nd line PP time. I think they will produce in it if they fail after 40 games then you bring in veterans.

Ihope that the tool 6 in Utica looks something like
Skinkaruk-Oreilly-Grenier
Gaunce-Cassels-Conacher

Im not saying that we should have a veteran free team in Utica, but I want the prospects to be in the top 6, not sign to many AHL:ers to block them is a way to do that.

On defence I don't have a problem with guys like Huskins, Biega, Sanguinetti, its the NEgrins Ehrharts, Lafranchise typs I don't the use for.

Once again in my opinion I want my young guys to EARN it not be gifted it. In my opinion that is also a part of there development. They need to know early that you have to beat out guys and be better than others in order to get prime minutes. As an example Virtanen has already worked his way into the top six, he earned it and he has kept it. Shinkaruk had earned top six minutes and while he earned it he didn't play well enough to keep his spot. A lesson I hope he learns from.

 

[Jyrki21]

Once again in my opinion I want my young guys to EARN it not be gifted it. In my opinion that is also a part of there development. They need to know early that you have to beat out guys and be better than others in order to get prime minutes. As an example Virtanen has already worked his way into the top six, he earned it and he has kept it. Shinkaruk had earned top six minutes and while he earned it he didn't play well enough to keep his spot. A lesson I hope he learns from.

If not for an injury to Carter Bancks, Virtanen would still be in the press box and have no opportunity to earn anything. Sometimes you do have to "take the leap" and see what you have.

 

[Tampacuseforever]

If not for an injury to Carter Bancks, Virtanen would still be in the press box and have no opportunity to earn anything. Sometimes you do have to "take the leap" and see what you have.

Different situation though than regular season, but I know what your saying. Jon Cooper once said that "the regular season is about development but the playoffs are about winning".

 

[WTG]

Different situation though than regular season, but I know what your saying. Jon Cooper once said that "the regular season is about development but the playoffs are about winning".

That doesn't explain Hutton sitting in the press box while Negrin and Ehrhart got playing time.

 

[Verviticus]

Different situation though than regular season, but I know what your saying. Jon Cooper once said that "the regular season is about development but the playoffs are about winning".

so what? again: the comets will win more games with hutton than negrin or ehrhart. hes a better player than they are. they are bad. he is less bad. hutton > them. winning is a function of good players, not bad ones. how else can i say this?