The Virtues of Development vs. Winning in the AHL (Read OP)

[WTG]

The Vancouver Bottom Six Grinders name change imminent.

You add the sarcasm but the way they are developing Shinkaruk is to be a grinder.

We should be developing Shinkaruk like Kane. Give him all the opportunities offensively and don't care about the defensive side.



The way we are developing Shinkaruk is just the way Calgary developed Baertschi. Baertschi went from being considered a future star to a potential bust.

 

[canuckking1]

You add the sarcasm but the way they are developing Shinkaruk is to be a grinder.

We should be developing Shinkaruk like Kane. Give him all the opportunities offensively and don't care about the defensive side.



The way we are developing Shinkaruk is just the way Calgary developed Baertschi. Baertschi went from being considered a future star to a potential bust.

100% agree everyone talks about detroit model but detroit doesn't play there prospects in bottom six grinding second pp unit time.

Canucks got an absolute gift in shink he was a top 10 talent who drop to 24th. Feel like they've step on the gift and might not be able to be fixed

 

[Bad Goalie]

100% agree everyone talks about detroit model but detroit doesn't play there prospects in bottom six grinding second pp unit time.

Canucks got an absolute gift in shink he was a top 10 talent who drop to 24th. Feel like they've step on the gift and might not be able to be fixed

Anyone watching the Comets all season has to laugh at this over reactive stance. Shink came into the season unprepared for the pro game and not physically ready for it in two ways. One, lack of size and strength and two, his hip did not enable him to move as freely as he had before the operation. He was still penciled into the top 6. As the season wore on and he did not improve he slid down the ladder. His hip eventually responded and as it got stronger and he began to perform at a higher level, he moved back into the top 6.

In the last quarter of the season he broke out of his scoring slumber and began to light it up and continued into the 1st round of the playoffs. All this occurred in the top 6. In round two the old Hunter showed up and he went down the ladder once again only to resurface in games 6 & 7. He has also been on the 1st and 2nd team PP on and off all season. He worked his way out of his morasses all season and he will return next season to Utica and become a much bigger cog in the machine.

Perform get rewarded, flop and move down, regroup, and work back up. The system is not flawed. It's an age old one selected at many levels by many coaches. You are free to disagree with it, but it is serving the prospects very well. Note Gaunce and Grenier on the ice for almost the entire final minute of game 7 with a one goal lead. Their play earned them a high level of confidence from their coach and he rewarded them in kind. No one would have seen these two in that position not so long ago.

Everybody needs to relax about the speed required for the development of all these kids. Each will come along at his own rate and right now I don't see any of them as fading out of the picture with the possible exception of Jensen, but in reverse Grenier has made himself very hard to leave out of the picture. Along with Shink, Gaunce has just begun to play like he was supposed to, I've already mentioned Grenier, Corrado is NHL material and plays better D than Clendening whose contract situation puts him in Vancouver next season along with Baertschi. Pedan, Biega, and Markstrom could also be good fits. Sanguinetti would be a great help, but the brass doesn't seem interested in proving it to themselves so he'll likely walk UFA.

The cupboard in Utica is occupied by some promising stuff and the incoming won't hurt Vancouver's future either as the cupboard becomes further stocked. Those trying to put many of these guys into the lineup next season are probably moving things just a little too quickly. Another year and Benning and company are going to have to rearrange the house because there won't be room for everybody on the way up without sending a few current roster guys to other pastures.

 

[WTG]

When Bo Horvat joined the canucks he looked like a CHL player. But with icetime and consistent play he managed to grow into the role he was given.

Shinkaruk is not given the same luxury. Hunter should be given a top 6 spot in Utica and be allowed to grow into that top 6 role. That's what Detroit does with their high end prospects. That is what we should absolutely do with our high end prospects.

I get that there is growing pains that come with just gifting a top 6 spot to a prospect. They might make a lot of gafs but they should be allowed to play through their mistakes. That's what development is all about. We haven't had a player like Shinkaruk in our system since Hodgson. Hunter is absolutely capable of becoming a elite NHL player. Canucks can't afford to mess up even 1 more year of Shinkaruk's development. It just feels like we are turning all our high potential players into grinders in Utica.

 

[UticaHockey]

When Bo Horvat joined the canucks he looked like a CHL player. But with icetime and consistent play he managed to grow into the role he was given.

Shinkaruk is not given the same luxury. Hunter should be given a top 6 spot in Utica and be allowed to grow into that top 6 role. That's what Detroit does with their high end prospects. That is what we should absolutely do with our high end prospects.

I get that there is growing pains that come with just gifting a top 6 spot to a prospect. They might make a lot of gafs but they should be allowed to play through their mistakes. That's what development is all about. We haven't had a player like Shinkaruk in our system since Hodgson. Hunter is absolutely capable of becoming a elite NHL player. Canucks can't afford to mess up even 1 more year of Shinkaruk's development. It just feels like we are turning all our high potential players into grinders in Utica.

Of those Detroit prospects that you speak of how many missed almost their entire final junior season? How many were coming off season ending surgery?

What Bad Goalie described about Shinkaruk is exactly what I witnessed. The first half of the season I saw a kid that didn't have either the speed or quickness to beat his man. What I saw was a kid that didn't have the strength to physically out muscle his man. Because of this what I saw was a kid who constantly skated the puck into no man's land and driven off the puck. What I saw was a frustrated kid who was having a difficult time playing at the next level against bigger, faster men than the kids he was used to playing against in juniors.

With time Hunter did improve on his speed, quickness, strength and most importantly mental aspects of the game. He is still a work in progress and with any development he often takes two steps forward then one step back. At no point in the first half of the season was he ready to play the type of minutes that you suggest he should have been gifted from the start.

The benefits from the way the Green is developing players down in Utica can't be fully measured for a few years. The problem with today's society is everyone wants instant gratification and that problem exists with most fan-bases as well.

 

[WTG]

Of those Detroit prospects that you speak of how many missed almost their entire final junior season? How many were coming off season ending surgery?

What Bad Goalie described about Shinkaruk is exactly what I witnessed. The first half of the season I saw a kid that didn't have either the speed or quickness to beat his man. What I saw was a kid that didn't have the strength to physically out muscle his man. Because of this what I saw was a kid who constantly skated the puck into no man's land and driven off the puck. What I saw was a frustrated kid who was having a difficult time playing at the next level against bigger, faster men than the kids he was used to playing against in juniors.

With time Hunter did improve on his speed, quickness, strength and most importantly mental aspects of the game. He is still a work in progress and with any development he often takes two steps forward then one step back. At no point in the first half of the season was he ready to play the type of minutes that you suggest he should have been gifted from the start.

The benefits from the way the Green is developing players down in Utica can't be fully measured for a few years. The problem with today's society is everyone wants instant gratification and that problem exists with most fan-bases as well.

That's what I talk about when I say growing pains.

Doesn't help Shinkaruk's development much if he is put next to grinders to "improve his defensive game". Hunter will always be a one dimensional forward. There is no point of putting him next to grinders instead of other offensive forwards. Shinkaruk needs to be developed like a top 6 one dimensional forward, so why not put him in the top 6.

So what if he stinks. Horvat stank when he came to Vancouver, constantly getting hemmed in his own zone. But he grew into his role and exceed it. That's what we need out of Shinkaruk. That is what development is all about. Growing into the role you've been given.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

When Bo Horvat joined the canucks he looked like a CHL player. But with icetime and consistent play he managed to grow into the role he was given.

Shinkaruk is not given the same luxury. Hunter should be given a top 6 spot in Utica and be allowed to grow into that top 6 role. That's what Detroit does with their high end prospects. That is what we should absolutely do with our high end prospects.

I get that there is growing pains that come with just gifting a top 6 spot to a prospect. They might make a lot of gafs but they should be allowed to play through their mistakes. That's what development is all about. We haven't had a player like Shinkaruk in our system since Hodgson. Hunter is absolutely capable of becoming a elite NHL player. Canucks can't afford to mess up even 1 more year of Shinkaruk's development. It just feels like we are turning all our high potential players into grinders in Utica.

No player should be gifted anything, especially a top 6 spot.

I like Hunter but an elite NHL player? Seriously? No way.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

That's what I talk about when I say growing pains.

Doesn't help Shinkaruk's development much if he is put next to grinders to "improve his defensive game". Hunter will always be a one dimensional forward. There is no point of putting him next to grinders instead of other offensive forwards. Shinkaruk needs to be developed like a top 6 one dimensional forward, so why not put him in the top 6.

So what if he stinks. Horvat stank when he came to Vancouver, constantly getting hemmed in his own zone. But he grew into his role and exceed it. That's what we need out of Shinkaruk. That is what development is all about. Growing into the role you've been given.

In todays NHL, there is no room for a one dimensional player. Are you even watching the games at any level?

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

Of those Detroit prospects that you speak of how many missed almost their entire final junior season? How many were coming off season ending surgery?

What Bad Goalie described about Shinkaruk is exactly what I witnessed. The first half of the season I saw a kid that didn't have either the speed or quickness to beat his man. What I saw was a kid that didn't have the strength to physically out muscle his man. Because of this what I saw was a kid who constantly skated the puck into no man's land and driven off the puck. What I saw was a frustrated kid who was having a difficult time playing at the next level against bigger, faster men than the kids he was used to playing against in juniors.

With time Hunter did improve on his speed, quickness, strength and most importantly mental aspects of the game. He is still a work in progress and with any development he often takes two steps forward then one step back. At no point in the first half of the season was he ready to play the type of minutes that you suggest he should have been gifted from the start.

The benefits from the way the Green is developing players down in Utica can't be fully measured for a few years. The problem with today's society is everyone wants instant gratification and that problem exists with most fan-bases as well.

Thank you for this this. Depending on how you define an "elite" NHL player, Hunter will never fit in this category.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

You add the sarcasm but the way they are developing Shinkaruk is to be a grinder.

We should be developing Shinkaruk like Kane. Give him all the opportunities offensively and don't care about the defensive side.



The way we are developing Shinkaruk is just the way Calgary developed Baertschi. Baertschi went from being considered a future star to a potential bust.

OMG, do you watch the games? He will never play in Utica or for the Canucks: :

"
We should be developing Shinkaruk like Kane. Give him all the opportunities offensively and don't care about the defensive side."

Are you kidding me? Do you host a show about hockey prospects on XM on Saturday mornings?

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

That's what I talk about when I say growing pains.

Doesn't help Shinkaruk's development much if he is put next to grinders to "improve his defensive game". Hunter will always be a one dimensional forward. There is no point of putting him next to grinders instead of other offensive forwards. Shinkaruk needs to be developed like a top 6 one dimensional forward, so why not put him in the top 6.

So what if he stinks. Horvat stank when he came to Vancouver, constantly getting hemmed in his own zone. But he grew into his role and exceed it. That's what we need out of Shinkaruk. That is what development is all about. Growing into the role you've been given.

You have no idea what development is about, how's that worked out for Vancouver the past 45 years?

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

You add the sarcasm but the way they are developing Shinkaruk is to be a grinder.

We should be developing Shinkaruk like Kane. Give him all the opportunities offensively and don't care about the defensive side.



The way we are developing Shinkaruk is just the way Calgary developed Baertschi. Baertschi went from being considered a future star to a potential bust.[/QUOTE]

And that is why he is in Utica....u have to watch the games....Hunter like Kane? You are DREAMING!!

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

Well if we want to follow the Detroit/Grand Rapids method then we should probably start by dressing McCann. Grand Rapids seems to have no issues with throwing Tyler Bertuzzi and Dylan Larkin into their Calder Cup winning vet-filled lineups, although I guess we will have to wait and see on Larkin but I would be absolutely shocked if he doesn't play every game for them from now onwards.

Edit: Is Hicketts playing for them as well? If so then we should probably copy them and call back Hutton from wherever he was banished to.

sO WE WANT TO FOLLOW THEIR MODEL?

ok.

gEEZ.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

You know 6768, there is a function whereby you can quote multiple posts in one reply. FYI there.

------------------------------

And personally, I have no problem with the Canucks' prospects learning from the get-go that winning is the goal, period. The Comets are a professional hockey team on a playoff run for the championship. That's their goal right now. I want all the kids to know that winning is what counts and if they want in they have to show the coach they represent the best chance of winning. The team decides you're not strong enough? Grab a protein shake and hit the gym. Coach tells you to backcheck? Get your ass out there and backcheck. When you do get a shot, make it count. You're a goalscorer? Score some bloody goals when you get the chance. Nothing is given. Nothing should be taken for granted. That's the message I want all the kids to get in their heads. It only gets more competitive from here on out when they get to the bigs.

 

[Verviticus]

6768 you need to chill out a bit dude. a disagreement, again, is not a personal attack (why does this keep needing to be said?)

 

[WTG]

No player should be gifted anything, especially a top 6 spot.

I like Hunter but an elite NHL player? Seriously? No way.

Hunter scored 49 goals in his draft -1 year. He absolutely has elite NHL potential.

In todays NHL, there is no room for a one dimensional player. Are you even watching the games at any level?

Kane, Johnson, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Carter, ect.....

You have no idea what development is about, how's that worked out for Vancouver the past 45 years?

Henrik Sedin, Daniel Sedin, Bure, Neely, Naslund.... Vancouver clearly has no idea what it's doing developing these franchise/HHoF players..... Clearly.

And that is why he is in Utica....u have to watch the games....Hunter like Kane? You are DREAMING!!

Small skilled forward with great speed and great hands. You can see where the Kane comparisons come from.

You're coming off a a little too defensive.

 

[VC]

Isn't the Detroit model to take it slow with young player? I remember Babcock sayinh that they let centres coming from junior play the wing until they learn the pro game then move into the middle of the ice. Sounds like teaching them before tossing them into the fire. I think you will end up with a better player that way.

 

[WTG]

Isn't the Detroit model to take it slow with young player? I remember Babcock sayinh that they let centres coming from junior play the wing until they learn the pro game then move into the middle of the ice. Sounds like teaching them before tossing them into the fire. I think you will end up with a better player that way.

I also remember them putting their prospects top 6 prospects in their AHL top 6.

It's about preparing your prospects by putting them in roles they will fill in the NHL. They do this till they are extremely comfortable at their position and basically over cook them in the AHL so they can immediately jump into the top 6 in the NHL when they are ready.

Basically what we are doing to Baertschi. He's basically a NHL player but we overcook him in our system so that next year he can play in our top 6.

 

[Bad Goalie]

I also remember them putting their prospects top 6 prospects in their AHL top 6.

It's about preparing your prospects by putting them in roles they will fill in the NHL. They do this till they are extremely comfortable at their position and basically over cook them in the AHL so they can immediately jump into the top 6 in the NHL when they are ready.

Basically what we are doing to Baertschi. He's basically a NHL player but we overcook him in our system so that next year he can play in our top 6.

At the start of the 17-18 season Hunter will be 22 years old. If he is still laboring in the AHL and is still questionable top 6, there'll be reason for concern. Until then all the panic and demands he do this or that are over reaction and unfounded.

It is still very questionable whether he will ever be an NHL top 6 forward. I don't care where he was drafted. Right now he doesn't show that talent level. Bo looked NHL ready the first day he took the ice in Utica and if you go back to that day and follow his stay here, you will find multiple posts by myself and other Utica posters making such claims in response to Vancouver people questioning his abilities and NHL readiness at his young age and pushing for his return to Jrs. for the season.

You will not see any posts from Utica posters who watch Shink every day talking about his mismanagement or how he is elite and shows every sign of being NHL ready next season or any season for that matter. He is a hard working kid who has a long way to go before he meets your expectations. Playing him at top 6 and 1st PP unit no matter what would have destined him to a horrible season. You really believe that would have helped him develop? Being booed a la Sauve or Mallet every time he was on the ice would not have gone so well I bet. His frustration level alone would have sent him to the pressbox. He doesn't do well with emotionally when he fails consistently. Green has made sure he has always been in a position to succeed. That's why his play has moved him up and down the ladder. Right now he is one happy kid enjoying his rookie season and has had no complaints with how his ice time has been managed nor which line he has been on. His quote was "I'm just so happy to be playing hockey again. Let this kid get it together on his current developmental path. The pressure on him to perform will be applied by the coaches and Vancouver management with each future season and 17-18 should find him ready for the NHL or at least right on the cusp. If not, he probably won't be NHL material.

Comparing him to Hodgson is really not a good model. He was shipped out of Vancouver due to his attitude more than anything and currently his stay in Buffalo may be near the end as well and maybe even his NHL stay. He is not performing at a top 6 level and maybe isn't even playing up to staying in the show, 13 points in 76 games, a +/- of -28, and 12 PIM and he is 25 years old. I can't think of any team desperate enough to deal anything of value for what he offers right now. We don't ever want to see Shink arrive at this point in his career.

 

[Bad Goalie]

I also remember them putting their prospects top 6 prospects in their AHL top 6.

It's about preparing your prospects by putting them in roles they will fill in the NHL. They do this till they are extremely comfortable at their position and basically over cook them in the AHL so they can immediately jump into the top 6 in the NHL when they are ready.

Basically what we are doing to Baertschi. He's basically a NHL player but we overcook him in our system so that next year he can play in our top 6.

Talking directly to Robert Esche, he was impressed that Benning went out and brought in Baertschi for the sole purpose of helping the Comets increase their scoring and make a deep playoff run. Baertschi was a surprise to all when he came in and put up a point/per game and ignited the Comets offense. That was not expected. He impressed so amazingly that Benning had to take a look at him in Vancouver to see if this guy was actually for real. He did not impress so much at first. He went back to Utica and then came up in the playoffs and was more impressive. Since returning to Utica, the team has made it to Round 3 and Sven has been a major force, but the Comets offense is sputtering anyways, but continues to win the same way they did all season before he arrived. Vancouver is not intentionally overcooking Baertschi. He was put on warm by Calgary. He hasn't been Vancouver property long enough to even simmer yet.

 

[WTG]

I never said that Shinkaruk will become elite or that he's preformed up to a elite level so far.

All I'm saying is that this player has incredible potential (somewhat hindered by his injury). This is a player that can become a elite goalscorer. We should treat him and develop him like a goalscorer. That doesn't mean putting him in the bottom 6 so he can round out his game or on a power play unit that sucks.

Shinkaruk should be gifted a top 6 spot and #1 PP opportunity. Especially now when he is actually playing pretty good.

 

[me2]

Talking directly to Robert Esche, he was impressed that Benning went out and brought in Baertschi for the sole purpose of helping the Comets increase their scoring and make a deep playoff run. Baertschi was a surprise to all when he came in and put up a point/per game and ignited the Comets offense. That was not expected. He impressed so amazingly that Benning had to take a look at him in Vancouver to see if this guy was actually for real. He did not impress so much at first. He went back to Utica and then came up in the playoffs and was more impressive. Since returning to Utica, the team has made it to Round 3 and Sven has been a major force, but the Comets offense is sputtering anyways, but continues to win the same way they did all season before he arrived. Vancouver is not intentionally overcooking Baertschi. He was put on warm by Calgary. He hasn't been Vancouver property long enough to even simmer yet.

I doubt he was brought in to help Utica win, teams don't give up 2nds for waivers eligible guys which is what Sven is next year. Benning got Sven for the Canucks next year, he was just happy to help Utica out by leaving him down in the minors but then he didn't have an NHL spot for him, if he did he would have been up.

 

[drax0s]

Shinkaruk should be gifted a top 6 spot and #1 PP opportunity.

Respectfully, I disagree 100%.

Early in the season, the Shinkaruk I saw (on hockeystreams) was beating himself up and losing confidence. He identifies as a goal scorer and was failing because he wasn't scoring -- and you could see it was getting to him. So, he was scratched, moved down the lineup and suddenly a spark lit and he started lighting it up. Someone posted in about another player in a thread something that I think applies here. I think the quote was "Put him in an energy role and let him take his mind off trying to score. The scoring will come."

I think gifting him top6 ice time would actually hurt him. Not only is he going to be facing the top defensive pairings of the opposing team, but he's under immense pressure to be "the goal scorer", which if he's fighting it is tough to make happen.

 

[WTG]

Respectfully, I disagree 100%.

Early in the season, the Shinkaruk I saw (on hockeystreams) was beating himself up and losing confidence. He identifies as a goal scorer and was failing because he wasn't scoring -- and you could see it was getting to him. So, he was scratched, moved down the lineup and suddenly a spark lit and he started lighting it up. Someone posted in about another player in a thread something that I think applies here. I think the quote was "Put him in an energy role and let him take his mind off trying to score. The scoring will come."

I think gifting him top6 ice time would actually hurt him. Not only is he going to be facing the top defensive pairings of the opposing team, but he's under immense pressure to be "the goal scorer", which if he's fighting it is tough to make happen.

I'll admit that I haven't watched the first half of Utica's season. Maybe here in lies the problem. I've only started watching since Shinkaruk really became hot. But from what I have seen now is that he is perfectly fine with handling a top 6 role.

Anyway, my main gripe isn't that he wasn't put in a top 6 role at the beginning of the season. If that was green reasoning to put him into a energy role till he felt comfortable at the AHL level then I'm okay with that. However, currently I feel like Shinkaruk is getting the short end of the stick. Hunter has shown he can handle a top 6 role by now, clearly, and he should be "gifted" that top 6 spot/1st unit power play over a player like Conacher. Makes no sense why you would keep Shinkaruk off that 1st unit power play for a player like Conacher that is so snake bitten.

That's just my thought process.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

I never said that Shinkaruk will become elite or that he's preformed up to a elite level so far.

All I'm saying is that this player has incredible potential (somewhat hindered by his injury). This is a player that can become a elite goalscorer. We should treat him and develop him like a goalscorer. That doesn't mean putting him in the bottom 6 so he can round out his game or on a power play unit that sucks.

Shinkaruk should be gifted a top 6 spot and #1 PP opportunity. Especially now when he is actually playing pretty good.

I think you are way wrong about this again. Green isn't going to gift anyone anything. I don't think Benning and Linden are going to instruct him to, either.

I stress to you again, he is just a kid. Development takes time and takes into account all aspects. He will become a great player if he spends about 3 or 4 years under Green.

Hunter is playing solid and he is playing hard but he, like all the Comets, has to bury some shots.

To gift someone top 6 or PP1 times is a terrible thing for the locker room.

Benning on Utica: http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/...Questions+Canucks+Benning/11072968/story.html