The Virtues of Development vs. Winning in the AHL (Read OP)

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WTG

December 5th
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Yeah but sometimes I don't know whether I should post my opinions about lineup decisions (Shinkaruk not playing in the top 6) in the development thread rather than in the Utica thread.

Would be nice to know what belongs in what thread.
 

UticaHockey

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Yeah but sometimes I don't know whether I should post my opinions about lineup decisions (Shinkaruk not playing in the top 6) in the development thread rather than in the Utica thread.

Would be nice to know what belongs in what thread.

I'll leave that for the mods to decide but I think you are over analyzing things if you are going to be concerned about what line player X is on each individual game. Shinkaruk has played the majority of the playoffs on the top line with Grenier and O'Reilly. Green made an in game adjustment to move Baertschi into that spot as well as Jensen into the top 6 which bumped Shinkaruk out. Who knows the next adjustment may bring him back in. Coaches mix up lines all the time and Green rolls 4 anyway.
 

WTG

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I'll leave that for the mods to decide but I think you are over analyzing things if you are going to be concerned about what line player X is on each individual game. Shinkaruk has played the majority of the playoffs on the top line with Grenier and O'Reilly. Green made an in game adjustment to move Baertschi into that spot as well as Jensen into the top 6 which bumped Shinkaruk out. Who knows the next adjustment may bring him back in. Coaches mix up lines all the time and Green rolls 4 anyway.

I don't want the discussion to overlap I already kinda ranted about this topic in the other thread.
 

Verviticus

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Jul 23, 2010
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Separating the Comets thread and the development v winning was a great idea and some of the above comments should be moved there. It allows this thread to focus on the team with updates on how individual players are performing without the constant back and forth about who is scratched and why they should be playing. There is an entire thread devoted to just that topic.

no there isn't. there's a thread about farm team priorities.
 

me2

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Skinkaruk would have learned nothing from the whl, he has had to unlearn how to play chl hockey because what worked for him there fell flat at pro level. The AHL was a humbling experience but one that is growing him as a player, 24 mins a game in the whl would have just reinforced that which didn't work for him at pros.
 

WTG

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Skinkaruk would have learned nothing from the whl, he has had to unlearn how to play chl hockey because what worked for him there fell flat at pro level. The AHL was a humbling experience but one that is growing him as a player, 24 mins a game in the whl would have just reinforced that which didn't work for him at pros.

Maybe. But I doubt he's learning much playing next to grinders for most of the season. Even if he learns some bad habits he's still playing almost double the amount he would be playing in Utica.


Also, Canucks bought Utica to groom players like Shinkaruk into top 6 forwards and going through those growing pains so that they will be ready for the NHL. What's the point of having Utica if we are not giving our prospects all the opportunity to succeed. Especially in key situations. That's how we develop these players. Instead we are making prospects we brought to Utica develop fight it out with temporary players with no future with this club.

For example, Conacher is playing over Shinkaruk on the first unit. Why? Conacher has a slim chance of ever playing in the Canucks top 6. Why is he getting more opportunities to play in favor of more important players. Not only that, Shinkaruk has for the most part outplayed Conacher. But Conacher is still in the top 6 where as Shinkaruk is demoted down to the 4th line. Makes no sense.

(got a bit of topic I just need a place to vent.)
 

Domecile

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Jul 9, 2014
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Separating the Comets thread and the development v winning was a great idea and some of the above comments should be moved there. It allows this thread to focus on the team with updates on how individual players are performing without the constant back and forth about who is scratched and why they should be playing. There is an entire thread devoted to just that topic. Comets fans like every fan have opinions and disagreements over who plays and who doesn't but at the end of the day most of us will support whoever puts on a Comets jersey and are thrilled about the success this team has achieved.

That's how it should be, good on ya. Leave the bickering to the armchair GM's.
 

BeardyCanuck03

@BeardyCanuck03
Jun 19, 2006
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These were last games lines

Baertschi-O'Reilly-Grenier
Jensen-Friesen-Conacher
Gaunce-Hamilton-Bancks
Shinkaruk-Zalewski-DeFazio

Ehrhardt-Biega
Andersson-Sanguinetti
Huskins-Clendening

If you are wondering to yourself why Shinkaruk is playing next to AHL grinders I have no idea. Shinkaruk is tied for the most goals in the playoffs (on utica) with Gaunce, Clendening, Grenier.

Clendening is playing 3rd pairing defense (lol), Gaunce is playing on the 3rd line (lol), Shinkaruk is playing on the 4th line (lol), Grenier is the only player is playing where he is supposed to.


I really don't understand why we just don't send Shinkaruk back to Medicine Hat where he'll get to play 24 minutes +, instead of playing him 12 minutes + in the AHL. What's the point of a AHL team at all if we are going to play our top 6 or bust prospects like Shinkaruk next to AHL grinders in the first place.

Clendening is supposed to be on the team next year is getting played on the 3rd pairing in the AHL. Like why? This guy is a first team all-star AHLer and we are playing him on the 2nd unit power play and 3rd pairing defense in our farm team? That doesn't make any sense.

To be fair, DeFazio lead the Comets in goals during the regular season, he's not your average "AHL grinder"

Also are we sure that's how the line/pairing depth chart worked out? or was that just the order the lines were listed/reported?
 

Get North

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It's not a video game. I don't expect Shinkaruk, Gaunce to be on the 1st line or even top 6. They'll get better with time and experience in the pro game look at how well Shinkaruk is doing later in the season compared to early in the season. Playing a lot of minutes against the best AHL defenceman will just frustrate players like Shinkaruk who have a lot of skill. Same thing happened in the WHL, Shinkaruk wasn't that good when he was 16 but when he was 18-19 he was playing top line minutes because he had experienced, matured, and become a better player with the proper development.

Horvat didn't play in the top 6 in the NHL. He started on the 4th, now he's probably going to be on the 3rd line next season and maybe 2nd line at the end of the season. It's just steps of growing as a young player.
 

WTG

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To be fair, DeFazio lead the Comets in goals during the regular season, he's not your average "AHL grinder"
DeFazio's not bad but I mean he's probably the streakiest goal scorer I've ever seen.

Since the start of March DeDazio only has 1 goal. (1 goal in 28 games)

Also are we sure that's how the line/pairing depth chart worked out? or was that just the order the lines were listed/reported?

Reported. But having watched the games Green usually stays true to his line combinations until the end of the game. Where he'll put out the defensive forwards.
 

WTG

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It's not a video game. I don't expect Shinkaruk, Gaunce to be on the 1st line or even top 6. They'll get better with time and experience in the pro game look at how well Shinkaruk is doing later in the season compared to early in the season. Playing a lot of minutes against the best AHL defenceman will just frustrate players like Shinkaruk who have a lot of skill. Same thing happened in the WHL, Shinkaruk wasn't that good when he was 16 but when he was 18-19 he was playing top line minutes because he had experienced, matured, and become a better player with the proper development.
Wait we talking about the same Hunter Shinkaruk?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=130701

This kid when he was 17 was talked about like a top 5 pick.

Shinkaruk also put up 15 points in 17 games as soon as he got put on Utica's top line. You realize that right? Not only that he is tied for most goals in the playoffs among all Utica players. But he is relegated to the 4th line. Makes no sense.

Horvat didn't play in the top 6 in the NHL. He started on the 4th, now he's probably going to be on the 3rd line next season and maybe 2nd line at the end of the season. It's just steps of growing as a young player.

Horvat's also not a top 6 or bust prospect like Hunter is.
 

BeardyCanuck03

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DeFazio's not bad but I mean he's probably the streakiest goal scorer I've ever seen.

Since the start of March DeDazio only has 1 goal. (1 goal in 28 games)



Reported. But having watched the games Green usually stays true to his line combinations until the end of the game. Where he'll put out the defensive forwards.

I was more talking about Ice time. Was Shinkaruk's line the 4th most used? Did Green use the Willie 1-2-3-4 approach? As long as Shinkaruk is getting ice time and is still on the PP, then I'm not going to be overly worried about the lines. Would it be more ideal as a Canucks fan to see him in a more offensive role at even strength? Yes, but it's not like there is a "Derek Dorsett" up in the top 6 right now. The Comets have a quite the depth of offensive wingers.

I think the idea of having Shinkaruk with DeFazio and Zalewski is that he can create more offense with them than Jensen can.
 

Dr Awesome

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Sep 24, 2008
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I still pop in to see what is going on but I'm one of the Comets fans that gave up on this forum. I will say however that separating Comets discussion and "winning v development " into different threads was a huge improvement.

Reading this is displeasing, I look forward to coming into this thread and reading comets fan input. However I understand the frustration.
 

WTG

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"Was Shinkaruk's line the 4th most used?"

The AHL doesn't record TOI so you are going to have to take my word for this. But If I had to guess I'd guess Shinkaruk when playing on the 4th line got about ~12 minutes of ice time.

"Did Green use the Willie 1-2-3-4 approach?"

Not with the forwards. I do feel like he did roll 1-2-3 with the defense pairings though. Which is only really noticeable when Ehrhart is on the ice really.

"As long as Shinkaruk is getting ice time and is still on the PP, then I'm not going to be overly worried about the lines. Would it be more ideal as a Canucks fan to see him in a more offensive role at even strength?"

The big pet peeve I have is that Shinkaruk is being religated to the 4th line after he went cold for a few games. But Conacher still is playing in the top 6 after being cold for ever. Also, Conacher is still on the 1st unit power play. A spot that should be used for Shinkaruk IMO.

"....but it's not like there is a "Derek Dorsett" up in the top 6 right now. The Comets have a quite the depth of offensive wingers....."

Conacher has been stone cold. I wouldn't necessarily say it's Dorsett level but it's like Higgins when he was stone cold still getting premier icetime.
"I think the idea of having Shinkaruk with DeFazio and Zalewski is that he can create more offense with them than Jensen can."

Jensen has been playing in a bigger role than Shinkaruk. Shinkaruk has been put next to guys that are just ice cold and can't seem to get the puck in the net. He should be put in a position to be able to set up plays without DeFazio shooting it wide on a breakaway.
 

UticaHockey

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Logged in to see if anything has changed. Guess not :shakehead

Hopefully with two separate threads devoted to the AHL this one won't deteriorate to where it once was. That and a strategic use of the ignore function will make this thread more enjoyable to read again.
 

Get North

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Wait we talking about the same Hunter Shinkaruk?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=130701

This kid when he was 17 was talked about like a top 5 pick.

Shinkaruk also put up 15 points in 17 games as soon as he got put on Utica's top line. You realize that right? Not only that he is tied for most goals in the playoffs among all Utica players. But he is relegated to the 4th line. Makes no sense.



Horvat's also not a top 6 or bust prospect like Hunter is.
There's no such thing as a top 6 and bottom 6 in the NHL anymore. Maybe a "4th line" but a 3rd line can be a line of Raymonds or a line of Richardsons or both. I know Shinkaruk is producing well in the playoffs, he has been late in the season to. He's adjusting to the AHL, earlier in the season he wasn't producing and he got benched/scratched a couple times. Now he's here, producing. But you still think whatever happening in Utica is terrible so I don't get your point.
 

van22

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Wait we talking about the same Hunter Shinkaruk?
[...]
Horvat's also not a top 6 or bust prospect like Hunter is.

That's the thing. For him to stick in the NHL (even in a top-6 role) he needs to show defensive awareness (that's why it worked for Horvat). For Shinkaruk his offensive game probably comes more naturally than his defensive game so by putting him in a bottom-6 role in the AHL it forces him to concentrate on his defence until it becomes an automatism. I'd think it's also faster to learn that way as they are more defensive situations encountered and it's normally against the top offensive lines. If he only plays in a top-6 he might put up points in the AHL and maybe warrant a call-up but if he can't be decent on defence he likely won't be able to stick (unless his offensive production is off the charts).

[...]
The big pet peeve I have is that Shinkaruk is being religated to the 4th line after he went cold for a few games. But Conacher still is playing in the top 6 after being cold for ever. Also, Conacher is still on the 1st unit power play. A spot that should be used for Shinkaruk IMO.
[...]

A demotion to a lower line is not always a "punishment" - sometimes it's to help a player to reset his game in a less pressurised position - get his confidence back by not feeling under pressure to put up points while still contributing. I think more experienced players are more able to deal with cold streaks - they'll stick to their game and not try and force things.
For Shinkaruk, Burke commented that he wasn't playing well - as for Conacher it seems that he's just not putting up points. Or has he been playing worse than Shinkaruk? Can Shinkaruk play right wing?

As we're talking Shinkaruk - I was wondering - how good is he at generating his own offence? Can he be the driver on a line?
 

WTG

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That's the thing. For him to stick in the NHL (even in a top-6 role) he needs to show defensive awareness (that's why it worked for Horvat). For Shinkaruk his offensive game probably comes more naturally than his defensive game so by putting him in a bottom-6 role in the AHL it forces him to concentrate on his defence until it becomes an automatism. I'd think it's also faster to learn that way as they are more defensive situations encountered and it's normally against the top offensive lines. If he only plays in a top-6 he might put up points in the AHL and maybe warrant a call-up but if he can't be decent on defence he likely won't be able to stick (unless his offensive production is off the charts).

Comparing Horvat to Shinkaruk in terms of defense is a bit silly. Horvat came into the NHL as advertised a 2 way beast. You can't expect that from Shinkaruk. Shinkaruk, should be expected to put up points in the top 6. Horvat and Shinkaruk are 2 different players. One models their game after Bergeron the other after Kane.

Kane isn't asked to play defense. That's not his game. If you look at his advanced stats he isn't very good at suppressing shots or scoring opportunities. But that's no big deal because that isn't his game.

I don't think it should be our primary goal to develop Shinkaruk's defensive game. We should let him develop his defense after he adapts to the AHL and is capable to show the amount of offense he showed off in junior. Shinkaruk hasn't done anything in this playoffs that suggests he should be demoted to the 4th line. In fact I feel he's outplayed Jensen who is currently on the 2nd line LW spot.


A demotion to a lower line is not always a "punishment" - sometimes it's to help a player to reset his game in a less pressurised position - get his confidence back by not feeling under pressure to put up points while still contributing. I think more experienced players are more able to deal with cold streaks - they'll stick to their game and not try and force things.

I'm fine if Shinkaruk gets moved down on a cold streak. I'm just frustrated that Shinkaruk isn't getting 1st unit power play time over players that he's outplaying. Like Conacher. I don't think Conacher should be on the first unit over Shinkaruk. For development purposes.


For Shinkaruk, Burke commented that he wasn't playing well - as for Conacher it seems that he's just not putting up points. Or has he been playing worse than Shinkaruk? Can Shinkaruk play right wing?
I think Shinkaruk has played extremely well in the playoffs and to end off the season.

Conacher is just not putting up points, as you said. But Conacher is still getting premier power play time over Shinkaruk. That's what so frustrating.

I'm not sure if Shinkaruk is comfortable with playing right wing so I won't say that shinkaruk should be playing in Conachers position but I would certainly want Shinkaruk to be on the 1st unit in Conachers spot.

As we're talking Shinkaruk - I was wondering - how good is he at generating his own offence? Can he be the driver on a line?

He can be. But I feel he get's better when surrounded by better teammates. For example: this play https://streamable.com/hps5

Shinkaruk feeds of his linemates. The better his linemates the better he plays off his linemates. He's a bit inconsistent and can disappear in a game. But if he is hot he's a joy to watch. He'll generate chances out of nowhere.
 
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van22

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Comparing Horvat to Shinkaruk in terms of defense is a bit silly I feel. Horvat came into the NHL as advertised a 2 way beast. You can't expect that from Shinkaruk. Shinkaruk should be expected to put up points in your top 6. They are 2 different players. One models their game after Bergeron the other after Kane.

Kane isn't asked to play defense. That's not his game. If you look at his advanced stats he isn't very good at suppressing shots or scoring opportunities. But that's no big deal because that isn't his game.

I don't think it should be our primary goal to develop Shinkaruk's defensive game. We should let him develop his defense after he adapts to the AHL and can score. I don't think Shinkaruk's done anything in this playoffs that suggests he should be demoted to the 4th line. In fact I feel he's outplayed Jensen who is currently on the 2nd line LW spot.

[...]

I don't think he should become a two-way player like Horvat as you say it's not his style. The problem is that coaches are going to want a certain minimum on defence (even for a player in the top-6). So by playing him in a more defensive role in the AHL - he gets to improve that part of his game to reach the minimum requirement to not be considered a defensive liability in the NHL.
 

WTG

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I don't think he should become a two-way player like Horvat as you say it's not his style. The problem is that coaches are going to want a certain minimum on defence (even for a player in the top-6). So by playing him in a more defensive role in the AHL - he gets to improve that part of his game to reach the minimum requirement to not be considered a defensive liability in the NHL.

I completely agree with what you said. Can't have players that can't play defense worth 1 cent playing in your top 6.

But to be honestly, I don't even think Shinkaruk's that bad defensively. He's never going to be a Burrows but his defensive game is serviceable. Never seen him really make a blatant mistake defensively.
 

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