The Virtues of Development vs. Winning in the AHL (Read OP)
- Thread starter Tobi Wan Kenobi
- Start date
Before I start let it be stated that I have no reason to attempt to downgrade Hutton.
Did you actually see this impact goal? I don't think so. Let me explain it. He was playing against whatever ECHL fill-ins Rochester could add to what was left of their AHL roster (very little). Buffalo had traded away just about half of their club and then traded off some of the Amerks as well. More were injured at both levels. The goalie he scored on was playing amateur hockey 2 weeks earlier and playing in his second game and I believe starting his first professional game. I can guarantee you he probably won't start many more in his life. His pro career is probably over already.
The goal came off the right side boards. It was a wrist shot and the kid left the entire short side uncovered and whiffed as he flipped his glove at it while stumbling on his knees which stopped sliding as he came across. It's not going in vs. any real AHL goalie. If this is an impact, I'd like a start against that sieve. I could use an AHL paycheck to supplement my pension and SS.
It would be nice if we could at least keep these conversations on a realistic level. Those of you who have seen Virtanen, McCann, and Hutton have something to bank your opinions on. I saw all of Hutton's games here and reported he had done an okay job. I also watched him in practice. I said he was a rookie who appeared to have promise and would most likely be a regular in Utica next season after completing two camps and having learned the system well by that time.
He had trouble on the breakout and as long as he quickly gave the puck to Biega whenever possible, the Comets got out quick. When he went on an independent journey, he ran into difficulties on several occasions including direct turnovers. I said earlier that there are 10 D-men on the roster and he is probably penciled in at #10 based on sheer inexperience. He is probably better than Negrin and an equal to Ehrhardt if they both give it up to their veteran partner. They can both skate it, but will both get in trouble lots of the times they do. Hutton will overcome this once he totally understands the system and also recognizes that his time to make decisions with the puck has decreased at least 100% from the NCAA. He also has to learn exactly where to be in his own end in every circumstance and those circumstances change in an instance and he got caught just standing there watching when it changed. He was also guilty of puck watching on several occasions instead of looking up the most dangerous man near the net. He was walked much in the same fashion that happens to Ehrhardt on occasion. He got lucky as someone bailed him out; a back checking forward, the center dropping down deep, the goalie saving his bacon.
Monday, Huskins will return to the lineup and after Andersson's game on Friday, he will likely also start. That will remove Ehrhardt and at least end half of your rage, no Ehrhardt. The other half will still be there, no Hutton as well.
As to forwards, I didn't think Jensen was an improvement on the guy who got benched. His game was basically the same as we have seen in the last 10 or so of his starts. We get a good play here and there, but mostly he is ineffective and often just invisible.
Shinkaruk is regressing to the pre "Shink is on fire" guy. He is running around working his butt off and accomplishing little. He arrives at every check after the puck is gone. He does not give the puck up on his rushes until he has no other options. The Barons are giving him the outside and then running him off. They have discovered he's not fast enough to beat them outside like Baertschi or Grenier can, so they angle him off and knock him off the puck. He is position dumb. He doesn't give up the puck and break to open space. He doesn't look for the open space a mate can find him in when they are battling with the puck and looking for a passing lane. He wins very few puck battles on the boards. He is now back to having trouble taking a hard pass which also hampered his production earlier in the year.
Neither of these two would be missed if asked to take a seat in the pressbox for a guy who could do the job better. I think that is Green's question. He hasn't seen enough from 2 practices to enlighten him on the fact that a new 18 year old kid can be responsible enough to provide the defense to make his offensive POTENTIAL worth it. No matter how much anyone pontificates as to how great one of these guys would be, there is no proof of that until it happens. Everyone here is interested to see how it would play out. That has never been the argument.
It all comes down to what have they shown him in Utica that proves he should take the chance and bench a guy he knows he can depend on to play the defensive, puck possession game the Comets play. Close to the vest tight checking, hard fore check, hard back check, and possess the puck and work for the scoring chance. What can I say? It got them to be the best team in the Western Conference and a premier team in the league. They play low scoring, one goal games more often than not and have won many more of them than they have lost. He believes in them. They believe in him and each other.
He will play what he sees as his best options. He has done it all season. We have questioned some of those moves just as you are, but they usually ended up working out in his favor. He isn't reading this board for support or help in filling out his lineup. This discussion can go on to infinity, but it will only serve as a venting stage on deaf ears for people who are sure they have the answers.
Have at it.
Delete.
Posted the above and found it in a new thread and returned to the former page and reposted and ended up here again and then went to the first page and realized what had happened. LOL
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WTG
December 5th
https://gfycat.com/FavorableTerrificIrrawaddydolphin
https://gfycat.com/DifferentUltimateDiscus
Hutton's goal for reference.
https://gfycat.com/DifferentUltimateDiscus
Hutton's goal for reference.
Yep. Looks pretty much like I described it. Not exactly a sick, twisted wrister.
Watch the look on the Amerk d-man in the second gif after the result. Looks like he's seen that act before.
WTG
December 5th
I still think Hutton is a upgrade on tired Ehrhart and Negrin.
We've only seen 4 games of his. He's looked awesome in his first game. Pretty decent in his other games. Nothing like Ehrhart turning the puck over 3 times a period.
We've only seen 4 games of his. He's looked awesome in his first game. Pretty decent in his other games. Nothing like Ehrhart turning the puck over 3 times a period.
FOurteenS inCisOr
FOS COrp CEO
Firstly, thank you for your insight and reports on the Comets and Canucks' prospects—I don't always agree with your opinions, but I appreciate them.
Yes. I watched the game in it's entirety. A goal is a goal is a goal...and so on. In most cases, it's the biggest impact a player hopes to make in a game—unless he/she is a goalie—no matter how it's scored.
I replied to a poster who followed a series of hyperbolic posts with another that claimed Ben Hutton had made "no impact" in his 4 games. I stated that he had because he scored a goal—an impact, no? No matter how it's scored.
I alluded to nothing else.
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vanuck
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@BG: In your view, if Hutton is at least "probably better than Negrin and an equal to Ehrhardt", he should be playing ahead of those two guys for his offensive upside alone not to mention the developmental opportunity to a highly touted Canucks prospect.
Of course, now it's moot since Andersson and Huskins look like they'll both be in the lineup and I don't really have a problem with that, but what about the previous 15-20 games or so when they didn't have Andersson available? There were a maximum of 14 regular season games where he could've played and Green only gave him 4 which I think is part of the big question.
Of course, now it's moot since Andersson and Huskins look like they'll both be in the lineup and I don't really have a problem with that, but what about the previous 15-20 games or so when they didn't have Andersson available? There were a maximum of 14 regular season games where he could've played and Green only gave him 4 which I think is part of the big question.
green had a quote the other day...
(paraphrasing)
'we've had guys pulling on the rope all year, to pull them out of the lineup now doesn't make sense...but with that being said, if i think they new guys can help us, they'll go in'
he went on to say he understands the hype, but he doesn't wanna get caught up in the hype of first round draft choices. he also said if it's 50/50 then the nod will go to the guy who has been there.
i understand where he's coming from, up to a certain point tho. i think these two kids should get a shot in the games 4-7 range.
this is professional hockey, to worry about the ego's or feelings of the guys who've been 'pulling the rope' all year is short-sighted.
if virtanen and mccann can help the team, they should play.
to be the best, you gotta play against the best. it's the only way to get better.
(paraphrasing)
'we've had guys pulling on the rope all year, to pull them out of the lineup now doesn't make sense...but with that being said, if i think they new guys can help us, they'll go in'
he went on to say he understands the hype, but he doesn't wanna get caught up in the hype of first round draft choices. he also said if it's 50/50 then the nod will go to the guy who has been there.
i understand where he's coming from, up to a certain point tho. i think these two kids should get a shot in the games 4-7 range.
this is professional hockey, to worry about the ego's or feelings of the guys who've been 'pulling the rope' all year is short-sighted.
if virtanen and mccann can help the team, they should play.
to be the best, you gotta play against the best. it's the only way to get better.
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yeah, honestly, if this is the case, green is actively harming the team by not playing the best possible players
vanuck
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True. I have a hard time imagining Hutton could be worse than Ehrhardt who was terrible in Game 1 from watching him out there, and reportedly not much better in Game 2.
There is very little reason (hockey ability/offensive potential, organizational status) to go with Ehrhardt except for 'AHL experience', except in this case it almost doesn't even matter when you have someone that bad.
Jimson Hogarth*
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- Nov 21, 2013
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From all reports Hutton was able to tread water while providing some offensive tools to the team. If this is the Canucks farm team the expectation should be for Hutton to play over players that will never sniff the NHL.
I understand why McCann and Virt aren't playing, but there is little or no excuse for Hutton not seeing ice in weeks.
vanuck
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That doesn't really explain The Curious Case Of Benjamin Hutton though.
(omg did I really just do that lawl)
StrictlyCommercial
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Winning isn't development if you don't play. The idea that McCann and Virtanen couldn't replace Bancks/Zalewski is beyond me.
BeardyCanuck03
@BeardyCanuck03
Bancks is one they key PKers for the Comets. Tough to take those kind of players out.
Zalewski hasn't been noticeable but thats a good and bad thing. He hasn't been a defensive liability.
Could Virtanen/McCann fill the roles these two players play? Probably, but they are uncertainties and coaches don't like that.
There are good arguments for playing and sitting McCann and Virtanen.
As a Canucks fan I want to see both of these players and Ben Hutton get into games but I can understand why the coaching staff is being cautious.
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I absolutely understand why Green doesn't want to play them. However, it's our job as an organization to make sure that our affiliate is prioritizing the development of our top prospects. With Horvat in the NHL, McCann and Virtanen are by far the most important prospects in the organization. They have a great opportunity to step into a game and see what professional playoff hockey is all about. Knowing what you face at the next level lets a player know how hard they have to work to succeed.
#BenningProblems
vanuck
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I don't buy that you need to dress an AHL 4th liner like Bancks nightly just for his PK utility. He might well not even be in the organization next season, but more importantly I think there's a tradeoff that could pay off for them offensively if they take him out. Plus, a group of DeFazio/O'Reilly/Hamilton/Friesen/Gaunce/Zalewski should be enough to keep guys fresh when they run into penalties and do the job when down a man.
That's the other thing - the Comets were the 4th least penalized team in the league this season and generally are pretty disciplined. Don't see why there's such a focus on needing more PK specialists in the lineup - especially if they bring very little at ES - when you're playing more of the game at even strength than 26 other teams to begin with.
That's the other thing - the Comets were the 4th least penalized team in the league this season and generally are pretty disciplined. Don't see why there's such a focus on needing more PK specialists in the lineup - especially if they bring very little at ES - when you're playing more of the game at even strength than 26 other teams to begin with.
TheWanderer
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- Nov 15, 2013
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Well i had a post but the ****ing stupid ad on the mobile gersion made me click it, didnt open a new tab but switched the current one. The gist was, play one rookie at a time if you dont want to play all. Green can be loyal to the guys who got them there by giving the team the best chance to win, which is to ice the best team.
Neither or them should play. They arnt even close to ready physically. And virtanen hasnt developed a good enough two way game to not be a non factor in the second round. Barring injury the canucks management has demonstrated success on every level with an aging team with minimal players with any real talent basically sedins horvat tanev and kassian when hes awake.
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If neither one is close to ready then their NHL prospects are not good at all.
Aint an 18 yr old on the planet that can enter game 3 of the ahl conf semifinals against a big strong team.
Id do it anyway but id rather win and keep braising the development of the prospects that contributed big roles to be where they are now.
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Most 1st round picks are ready to enter AHL playoff games. A lot are already playing NHL playoff games at that point. Virtanen is over 200lbs, McCann is just under 200lbs. Bancks etc are not prospects, our organization gains nothing from their playoff experience. If you put in Virtanen/McCann/Hutton and they **** the bed, then sure don't play them anymore. However, with their pedigree they should be able to come in and contribute a lot more than the replaceable players that current populate the bottom 6 of the Comets.
