The Virtues of Development vs. Winning in the AHL (Read OP)

[VanJack]

I'm actually with Travis Green on this one....current roster has slogged through the ups and downs of a challenging AHL season.....his loyalty to the players that got them this far is understandable and laudable....Virtanen and McCann just finished long junior seasons and lengthy playoff runs....I question how much they'd have left in the tank to be able to step in and help right now......as for Blomstrand, Hutton and Labate, I doubt they touch the ice unless the Comets get felled by a rash of injuries.....Their time will come next year when everyone starts at square one.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

18 year old Sam Bennett had no problems against the Canucks.

NONE of the Canucks prospects mentioned in this thread are Sam Bennett.

Prospects need to play, not in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Take notes.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

Bolded is completely untrue when it comes to the AHL.

All that matters is getting icetime in prime developmental situations for your top prospects.

Seriously??

 

[MS]

NONE of the Canucks prospects mentioned in this thread are Sam Bennett.

Prospects need to play, not in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Take notes.

The AHL playoffs are also not the NHL playoffs. It's perfectly reasonable to think that McCann and Virtanen could have a Bennett-esque impact at this level.

Imagine if Calgary had sat Bennett for Paul Byron because 'you play the guys that got you there' and 'playoffs aren't a time for rookies'.

Seriously??

Yup.

Obviously a quality, winning team improves that 'quality developmental situation' but I'd rather see the Comets be a 90-point team with the team's top prospects playing key roles and big minutes than a 110-point team with their roles marginalized somewhat.

And there is never going to be an excuse for playing Zalewski and Bancks over McCann and Virtanen in the playoffs. Or playing Ehrhardt and Negrin over Hutton down the stretch with the division title in the bag.

 

[Hyzer]

what good does it do to our top prospects if they never understand what its like to play against men in playoff hockey?

even if utica won the calder cup.. its basically 100% useless unless our prospects play. we could easily make a calder cup team with just vets if we really wanted too but what the **** is the point in that

 

[Win One Before I Die]

It is unfair to the guys who got the team to where they are if you take them out for some 18 year old kids. This is why there haven't been line up changes. Deal with it.

 

[KDizzle]

Bolded is completely untrue when it comes to the AHL.

All that matters is getting icetime in prime developmental situations for your top prospects.

Especially true when the parent club owns the farm team.

 

[MS]

It is unfair to the guys who got the team to where they are if you take them out for some 18 year old kids. This is why there haven't been line up changes. Deal with it.

This is a DEVELOPMENTAL LEAGUE.

Literally every other team that had eligible 18 and 19 y/o top prospects played those prospects over fringe veteran AHLers. And in the past, we've played every eligible teenage player we had - Corrado, Jensen, Hodgson, Schroeder. We are going against the grain here in a big way.

Again, was it unfair to Paul Byron that he was scratched in favour of Sam Bennett for the NHL playoffs? Of course not - they played the best player. And it was a win for the team and a win for the development of their prospect.

Not only is playing Jared McCann over Zalewski better for player development, it's probably better for the team and winning games.

 

[StrictlyCommercial]

Not going to post this in the Comets thread, but jesus grow some ****ing skin. Fact is that the team is meant to develop Canucks prospects, and when they don't we are going to be unhappy about it.

If people are quitting the board over people being upset over Ehrhardt playing over Hutton then they probably should avoid the internet altogether.

 

[WTG]

I honestly don't get why we have Utica in the first place if we keep playing these vets in roles that our prospects should be in for development.

Why not just keep Shinkaruk in Medicine Hat if we are going to play him in the bottom 6 down in Utica.

People always talk about the "Detroit model". Detroit sticks their top 6 prospects IN THE TOP 6. Shocker. Shinkaruk should have never spent half the season in the bottom 6 with grinders. You think Tyler Bertuzzi is playing in the bottom 6 right now? Same goes with Clendening. The whole reason we got Clendening is so that he can QB the powerplay. So why in the hell is he playing on the second unit?! I don't understand!

Why are Sanguinetti and Conacher put on the 1st unit instead of Shinkaruk and Clendening. I don't understand.

I get Utica is trying to win. But I'd much rather lose and have a prospect in a bigger role than win where our prospects get ~12 minutes a night. Honestly, what matters most for development is icetime IMO. Not winning.

These are the guys that might make up the future of the core. How are they expected to become part of the core if they can't be entrusted with playing big minutes on our farm team?


Also, to tackle the inevitable "Prospects have to work their way up the lineup" argument.

These players down in Utica are first rounders that worked their way up to the ranks in the NCAA and the CHL. Some where even stars in their league (shinkaruk). They shouldn't have to "work their way up the later" once they come to the CANUCKS DEVELOPMENT TEAM. The whole reason that team exists is to give prospects like Shinkaruk to play in tough situations and let him go through growing pains so that he doesn't have that many when he plays in the NHL.

Also, why even sign Hutton if you are never going to use him. He's god damn 22 years old and has experience in a tough league in the NCAA. Why is he being scratched repeatedly for the likes of 36 year old Huskins and god damn ****ing Negrin. Hutton should have played the 15 games he was able before the season so he could have been warmed up to the AHL and adapt to the system that way he can actually he could actually benifit from the long playoff run that Utica's on. Instead he was a press box warmer because Green wanted to be "loyal".

Guess what. AHL is a development league. This isn't the place for loyalty. I honestly don't give a **** if a bottom 6 AHLer is feeling bad because a prospect that might actually be a big part of our NHL team gets to play over him. This isn't a god damn charity case. This is a league that was designed to give a teams prospects playing time vs men. Instead we are treating it like it's a god damn NHL team by playing these vets over our youth.

AHL is a development league. We should be developing prospects not having them sit on the bench while AHL vets play.

/endrant

 

[Zaddy91]

Glad we didnt put the rookies in, more important for gaunce sven amd shinkaruk to experience the wins

 

[WTG]

I think this discussion should be merged with the Utica thread.

 

[Zaddy91]

Huskins winning calder> mccann and virtanen losing us games.

This organization is about honour and integrity iam sorry

 

[vanuck]

It's not a given that putting in McCann for Zalewski would lose you games. Likewise with Virtanen for Bancks. With the talent they have there's every chance they're equal, if not better.

Though Hutton is still the main issue here (for now).

I'm actually with Travis Green on this one....current roster has slogged through the ups and downs of a challenging AHL season.....his loyalty to the players that got them this far is understandable and laudable....Virtanen and McCann just finished long junior seasons and lengthy playoff runs....I question how much they'd have left in the tank to be able to step in and help right now......as for Blomstrand, Hutton and Labate, I doubt they touch the ice unless the Comets get felled by a rash of injuries.....Their time will come next year when everyone starts at square one.

Loyalty doesn't win you games though, especially if they don't really bring anything at ES and don't have any upside.

The thing about long seasons could just as easily be applied to guys who played for the Comets all year.

 

[VanJack]

It's not a given that putting in McCann for Zalewski would lose you games. Likewise with Virtanen for Bancks. With the talent they have there's every chance they're equal, if not better.

Though Hutton is still the main issue here (for now).



Loyalty doesn't win you games though, especially if they don't really bring anything at ES and don't have any upside.

The thing about long seasons could just as easily be applied to guys who played for the Comets all year.[/QUOTE]


The thing is they're five and six years older and have pro hockey bodies.....worst case scenario, one or both of Virtanen and McCann blows out a knee or suffers a shoulder separation in an AHL playoff game, trying to make a late-season adjustment to playing men in an intense playoff environment....If the Oilers want to play Darnell Nurse in the AHL playoffs that's fine...He's a bigger player who already has 10-20 games of NHL experience..... Green and the 'Nucks are taking the correct approach in Utica imo.

 

[Ziostilon]

People always talk about the "Detroit model". Detroit sticks their top 6 prospects IN THE TOP 6. Shocker. Shinkaruk should have never spent half the season in the bottom 6 with grinders. You think Tyler Bertuzzi is playing in the bottom 6 right now?

you clearly don't believe in the concept of internal competition
Even if this was the ECHL, you have to prove your worth before getting increased ice time.

btw. Tyler Bertuzzi does play on the 3rd line. You can argue if there's even a 1st line there.
Lines:
Hoggan - Nosek - Pulkkinen
Porter - Athanasiou - Mantha
Bertuzzi - Miele - Zengerle
Tvrdon - Aubry - Hirschfeld

The "Hey, here's some ice-time to go prove yourself" happened through some shifts in the regular season. It's the post-season now, it's not the time to test out how certain players fare

 

[Ryp37]

It's not a given that putting in McCann for Zalewski would lose you games. Likewise with Virtanen for Bancks. With the talent they have there's every chance they're equal, if not better.

Though Hutton is still the main issue here (for now).



Loyalty doesn't win you games though, especially if they don't really bring anything at ES and don't have any upside.

The thing about long seasons could just as easily be applied to guys who played for the Comets all year.[/QUOTE]


The thing is they're five and six years older and have pro hockey bodies.....worst case scenario, one or both of Virtanen and McCann blows out a knee or suffers a shoulder separation in an AHL playoff game, trying to make a late-season adjustment to playing men in an intense playoff environment....If the Oilers want to play Darnell Nurse in the AHL playoffs that's fine...He's a bigger player who already has 10-20 games of NHL experience..... Green and the 'Nucks are taking the correct approach in Utica imo.

This is so dumb, theyre not 12 years old Virtanens already bigger and heavier than the average player

The fact the canucks seem like the only team doing this is is all we really need to know

 

[The Stig]

It's playoffs. Go with the lineup that wins. It's not like the coach will be focusing on developmental stuff right now anyway.

 

[Tiranis]

It's not a given that putting in McCann for Zalewski would lose you games. Likewise with Virtanen for Bancks.

I understand the McCann for Zalewski calls. McCann can fill that same role while hopefully providing more offensive jump. He can also be moved up the line-up if he plays well. You're not really losing anything by removing Zalewski.

The Virtanen for Bancks calls are a little stranger. Bancks is an excellent PK player and despite limited skill, is a very good defensive player. Virtanen is not any of those things, he's an offensive player that didn't separate himself from the pack in the WHL. If anyone is coming out for Virtanen, it's Jensen. They fill the same role but I'm still not convinced that Virtanen would actually outplay Jensen.

 

[Mudshark50]

you clearly don't believe in the concept of internal competition
Even if this was the ECHL, you have to prove your worth before getting increased ice time.

btw. Tyler Bertuzzi does play on the 3rd line. You can argue if there's even a 1st line there.
Lines:
Hoggan - Nosek - Pulkkinen
Porter - Athanasiou - Mantha
Bertuzzi - Miele - Zengerle
Tvrdon - Aubry - Hirschfeld

The "Hey, here's some ice-time to go prove yourself" happened through some shifts in the regular season. It's the post-season now, it's not the time to test out how certain players fare

Can someone post the Utica starting lineup for comparison? I can't find one in limited searches.

 

[Hielo Grande]

I have stayed away from this forum because of the bickering over scratches between Vancouver and Utica fans. I thought it was a good idea to return so I can add my bit of insight for Vancouver fans. I understand the excitement of watching the new guys playing. They will get their time but this team is a VERY well-oiled machine on a mission. Every one of them has a job and they do it well. Let's put these guys away on Monday. Go Comets!!!

Totally agree. Why in tarnation would we mess with a winning formula? If it isn't broke don't fix it. I would have a lot of uncertainty subbing one of the CHL guys at this point. There is a championship on the line.
There will be plenty of exhibition games in a couple of months for the prospects to strut their stuff. Meanwhile they get to hang with the pros in a cup race.
This thread is more interesting with local input as well as that from the parent team.
Go Coments!
Go Grenier!

 

[ace4]

I have stayed away from this forum because of the bickering over scratches between Vancouver and Utica fans. I thought it was a good idea to return so I can add my bit of insight for Vancouver fans. I understand the excitement of watching the new guys playing. They will get their time but this team is a VERY well-oiled machine on a mission. Every one of them has a job and they do it well. Let's put these guys away on Monday. Go Comets!!!

Every Vancouver Canucks fan would be thrilled if the Utica Comets went the whole way. Its just frustrating when you know that playing in the playoff atmosphere in the AHL would be beneficial to Virtanen and McCann's development. They also provide more skill that could help Utica get an extra goal every few games. Virtanen is great at hitting on the forecheck and McCann has an outstanding wrist shot that could help the struggling power play.

 

[Hyzer]

I understand the McCann for Zalewski calls. McCann can fill that same role while hopefully providing more offensive jump. He can also be moved up the line-up if he plays well. You're not really losing anything by removing Zalewski.

The Virtanen for Bancks calls are a little stranger. Bancks is an excellent PK player and despite limited skill, is a very good defensive player. Virtanen is not any of those things, he's an offensive player that didn't separate himself from the pack in the WHL. If anyone is coming out for Virtanen, it's Jensen. They fill the same role but I'm still not convinced that Virtanen would actually outplay Jensen.

I could probably slot in for Jensen and outplay. hes a write off at this point.

pls green let the kids play

 

[Callhee]

Every Vancouver Canucks fan would be thrilled if the Utica Comets went the whole way. Its just frustrating when you know that playing in the playoff atmosphere in the AHL would be beneficial to Virtanen and McCann's development. They also provide more skill that could help Utica get an extra goal every few games. Virtanen is great at hitting on the forecheck and McCann has an outstanding wrist shot that could help the struggling power play.

I don't speak for everyone, but I think the general consensus is that the issue mainly lies in Erhardt's play. The CHL players are undeniably green and it could potentially be detrimental to sub them in now. But Erhardt's continual terrible play is unforgivable; I would rather see Hutton out there than Erhardt, I am confident that no matter how bad Hutton plays, it can't be worse than Erhardt.

I don't think it is a good idea to throw Virtanen out there with no pro experience, he simply doesn't know the system well enough or have the defensive acumen to play in an intense situation like this. McCann on the other hand I could see making it as he is already heady defensively, but still has to adjust to a foreign system, so I don't see Green penciling him in. Although you never know, if the Comets have a deep run, we may see them suit up as injury replacements.

Honestly, I don't care if they play or not; they're still incredibly young and will have lots of time to play in the future, I am more concerned about the continual success of the Comets. They're soaking up the pro atmosphere, learning what it takes to be a pro by observation, participating in pro practices and building camaraderie with their future team mates. I want to see Utica go as far as possible to give McCann, Virtanen, Subban, and Hutton as much time possible to soak it all in.

 

[WTG]

Can someone post the Utica starting lineup for comparison? I can't find one in limited searches.

These were last games lines

Baertschi-O'Reilly-Grenier
Jensen-Friesen-Conacher
Gaunce-Hamilton-Bancks
Shinkaruk-Zalewski-DeFazio

Ehrhardt-Biega
Andersson-Sanguinetti
Huskins-Clendening

If you are wondering to yourself why Shinkaruk is playing next to AHL grinders I have no idea. Shinkaruk is tied for the most goals in the playoffs (on utica) with Gaunce, Clendening, Grenier.

Clendening is playing 3rd pairing defense (lol), Gaunce is playing on the 3rd line (lol), Shinkaruk is playing on the 4th line (lol), Grenier is the only player is playing where he is supposed to.


I really don't understand why we just don't send Shinkaruk back to Medicine Hat where he'll get to play 24 minutes +, instead of playing him 12 minutes + in the AHL. What's the point of a AHL team at all if we are going to play our top 6 or bust prospects like Shinkaruk next to AHL grinders in the first place.

Clendening is supposed to be on the team next year is getting played on the 3rd pairing in the AHL. Like why? This guy is a first team all-star AHLer and we are playing him on the 2nd unit power play and 3rd pairing defense in our farm team? That doesn't make any sense.