Blue Jays Discussion: The trade deadline has passed. Time to see what this can do (most acquisitions expected to be present Thursday in Minnesota)

[canucksfan]

 

[weems]

Kasevich now 3 for 5 with 2 rbi

 

[phillipmike]

Can’t play CF? What are you talking about?

Can’t play it because he is always hurt. And because of his age and injuries he was never going to play at least half of the deal in CF. And less than 2 years in, he hasn’t even played half of those games in CF.

 

[phillipmike]

What would you base this theory on? The only time Jays went big at the deadline was when AA got Price and Tulo, and he was praised for those moves, even when we lost to KC.

The other time he went big and flamed out was 2012 with the Dickey et all trades, but I don't remember the majority of fans calling for AAs head after that season either (my memory isn't great that far back, correct me if I'm wrong).

This management only went big a couple of times - Ryu and Springer...neither move looks to be great in retrospect, but I don't see too much ire directed at management over those moves.

We don’t have a lot of examples with the Jays. But this place was insufferable after that 2013 team failed. We still hear people upset about Syndergaard for Dickey. Or Reyes’ defense or Johnson can’t stay healthy to pitch. People wanted Gibbons gone too.

But you can’t say if a team goes big and fails, there won’t be upset fans/media. Happens all the time in sports. You used long term assets for short term results because you thought the team was ready. The bigger aim and the harder you fall means more scrutiny.

A lot of people want the Jays to spend money and 5 of the biggest deal this FO gave out was/is;
-Roark; many wanted him gone asap
-Ryu: wasn’t good last year and was worse this year. Likely not to throw a pitch with the Jays again
-Springer: can’t stay healthy and has a serious injury
-Berrios: according to WAR he is close to a replacement level pitcher

Only Gausman has been good and it’s year 1. I bet a lot of fans aren’t happy with this track record are the same ones who wanted them to spend money.

We see it a lot with the Leafs and Raps with Toronto fans. Even Masai who won a championship still gets crapped on for trading a first for Thad Young. Or Dubas moving a first plus more for Foligno, Rittich, Nash etc. We heard it every year after the Leafs got bounced early and then have 3-4 picks in the draft.

 

[Discoverer]

Yeah, the first half of 2015 was nothing but people calling for AA and Gibbons to be fired.

 

[phillipmike]

Yeah, the first half of 2015 was nothing but people calling for AA and Gibbons to be fired.

Poll Time: Do you approve of the job Alex Anthopoulos is doing?

It's been about a month....and man does a lot change in a month when you watch the Blue Jays. A month ago we were 3.5 games out of first place, which sounds better than it actually was, we were...

www.bluebirdbanter.com

And that was after signing the biggest free agent deal in Jays history, Martin and acquiring an MVP candidate in JD for nothing really.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Bradley Jr. on helping his new team any way that he can

0:54 | August 9, 2022

Jackie Bradley Jr. speaks on being acquired by the Toronto Blue Jays on his quick signing and excited to help his new teammates in contention for the playoffs.



Bradley Jr. 'can be the voice' for Blue Jays especially in their postseason run

4:42 | August 9, 2022

Hazel Mae is joined by Jackie Bradley Jr. to chat about being with the Toronto Blue Jays, how he can bring his playoff experience to the team, and the confidence offensively at this stage of his career.

 

[CherryToke]

#FireAtkins

 

[stickty111]

Atkins is just very average. This bullpen was not good enough and no Bass as your best addition is not good enough.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Me a week ago: Man i love the O's! Scrappy young squad that's fun to root for

Me now: Wow i ****ing hate the O's

They gotta play these f***s 12 more times?

 

[rdogg]

#FireAtkins

But they are doing such a great job with the pitching and bullpen!

Ryu is just coming to form and Kikuchi will eventually become the ace he should be. Berrios is a gas-can but it's okay because he wasn't signed to a huge contract. Really the Yankees should be worried about the Jays winning the AL East

 

[Kurtz]

Alright, so I had a fair amount of money on the Jays tonight expecting our ace and rested pen to beat their 8 ERA starter who we crushed a few weeks ago, so I'm extra pissed and had a few, and this is a bit of a reactionary post. But:

Does anyone have brains in our management? What the f*** is going on? Why do we have both Zimmer and Bradley on the team right now, and yet not a single lefty in the pen? Are we seriously playing Tapia and his negative war every night? Were the 85 games that Teo has played this season so taxing that we must rest him in a game where Springer is missing and we are playing against a wild-card competitor? Did we raise all of this hoopla around Bass just so we can bring him in in low leverage against the bottom of their lineup and then leave the hard outs to our journeymen?

And yet we have intelligent, veteran posters on this board insisting that our deadline was just fine, and our management and team are fine, and there's nothing to complain about.

And to get punked by one of the worst players and pukes in baseball to boot, just adding to the embarassment. What the f*** is going on?

 

[CherryToke]

And yet we have intelligent, veteran posters on this board insisting that our deadline was just fine, and our management and team are fine, and there's nothing to complain about.

Toxic positivity is a mental illness. Narcissistic sick people

 

[Langdon Alger]

Gurriel better never hit leadoff again.

 

[trellaine201]

What about being aggressive and landing Kevin Gausman? What about getting Chapman to solidify the 3rd base position? This management has done a lot to improve this team. They will be aggressive again in the winter depending what the team does in the playoffs.

I think we should concentrate on making the playoffs first. That is not a given!

 

[Blitzkrug]

Can I request the Jays be transferred to the AL Central?

Can they beat on those jabroni teams instead? (Yes I'm aware they dropped games to the Twins)

 

[Kurtz]

I think we should concentrate on making the playoffs first. That is not a given!

I think we'll still take one of the wild card spots, but I hope people understand that a 3-game series at the Trop or in Seattle is a damn near guaranteed loss. We need that first wildcard spot or we're f***ed.

 

[Blitzkrug]

A series in Seattle wouldn't scare me. For as much of a nightmare as that last series in Seattle was, the Jays were in essentially all but one of those games until the end.

The Trop is a different story. f***ing voodoo ass indian burial ground that somehow curses the opposition instead of the home team.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Man that Mariners-Yankees game was wild. Who needs runs when there's chaos on the base paths?!

 

[MAB1]

We don’t have a lot of examples with the Jays. But this place was insufferable after that 2013 team failed. We still hear people upset about Syndergaard for Dickey. Or Reyes’ defense or Johnson can’t stay healthy to pitch. People wanted Gibbons gone too.

But you can’t say if a team goes big and fails, there won’t be upset fans/media. Happens all the time in sports. You used long term assets for short term results because you thought the team was ready. The bigger aim and the harder you fall means more scrutiny.

A lot of people want the Jays to spend money and 5 of the biggest deal this FO gave out was/is;
-Roark; many wanted him gone asap
-Ryu: wasn’t good last year and was word this year. Likely not to throw a pitch with the Jays again
-Springer: can’t stay healthy and has a serious injury
-Berrios: according to WAR he is close to a replacement level pitcher

Only Gausman has been good and it’s year 1. I bet a lot of fans aren’t happy with this track record are the same ones who wanted them to spend money.

We see it a lot with the Leafs and Raps with Toronto fans. Even Masai who won a championship still gets crapped on for trading a first for Thad Young. Or Dubas moving a first plus more for Foligno, Rittich, Nash etc. We heard it every year after the Leafs got bounced early and then have 3-4 picks in the draft.

To be fair, you're evaluating different signings on different things. In terms of actual performance:

Ryu - finished 3rd in Cy Young voting his first year here, bad last year and injured this year. 1 year left and like you said probably won't pitch again in toronto
Springer - He was literally a top 3 CF in baseball last year, he's on pace for 40 hrs, 100+ rbi's this year (injured so pace ik)
Berrios - You stop judging based on injuries and now on performance. Players have bad spells, some people want Tarik Skubal here and yet most of his career has been how Berrios has been this season.
Roark + Ryu = Poopoo platter, I get what they were trying to do (cheap end of the rotation arm) but in the end they just wasted money that required another trade to get rid of an overpaid veteran pitcher.

Their star acquisitions (Ryu, Springer, Chapman, Berrios) all for the most part have performed as expected, it's just that health in the case of Ryu and Springer, and an inconsistent year for Berrios this year (he was great last season).

Aaron Judge has only played more than 148 games twice in his 7 seasons (averages 97 games a season, Springer averages 107 and it's only been since his Toronto time that his injuries popped up, over his last 4 full seasons in Houston, he averaged 141 games per year) and I've already seen some people wanting him here.

Springer was never a guy who had injury issues that kept him out of the lineup long-term prior to coming here.

 

[phillipmike]

To be fair, you're evaluating different signings on different things. In terms of actual performance:

Ryu - finished 3rd in Cy Young voting his first year here, bad last year and injured this year. 1 year left and like you said probably won't pitch again in toronto
Springer - He was literally a top 3 CF in baseball last year, he's on pace for 40 hrs, 100+ rbi's this year (injured so pace ik)
Berrios - You stop judging based on injuries and now on performance. Players have bad spells, some people want Tarik Skubal here and yet most of his career has been how Berrios has been this season.
Roark + Ryu = Poopoo platter, I get what they were trying to do (cheap end of the rotation arm) but in the end they just wasted money that required another trade to get rid of an overpaid veteran pitcher.

Their star acquisitions (Ryu, Springer, Chapman, Berrios) all for the most part have performed as expected, it's just that health in the case of Ryu and Springer, and an inconsistent year for Berrios this year (he was great last season).

Aaron Judge has only played more than 148 games twice in his 7 seasons (averages 97 games a season, Springer averages 107 and it's only been since his Toronto time that his injuries popped up, over his last 4 full seasons in Houston, he averaged 141 games per year) and I've already seen some people wanting him here.

Springer was never a guy who had injury issues that kept him out of the lineup long-term prior to coming here.

I’m not saying those were bad signings, I’m just saying fans want one thing (big signing or trade) and then they get it, it isn’t enough or it’s a bad move in their eyes and then want more of it to “correct” the earlier ones.

This front office is all about risk aversion and for good reason. Pretty much all of our big signings and trades have been average or sub par except for Gausman for good reason. Which shows there is inherent risk in trading for “stars” with short term or signing long term deals. Thankfully none of these deals can’t hold the team back because they have cheap, young controllable stars.

This is why homegrown players is the way to go and why most of this management team’s short term deals and underrated signings/trades have been it’s best;

-Ray
-Semien
-Teoscar
-Gurriel
-Espinal

And the headliners that fans want don’t really work out;

Ryu and Kikuchi. Berrios and Springer leave something to be desired. Happened AA too with Dickey, the Marlins trade, and Tulo and Martin’s contract didn’t age well. Same goes for JP Riccardi with the Wells deal, BJ Ryan, Frank Thomas, depending who you ask, Burnett didn’t work out all that well.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

I’m not saying those were bad signings, I’m just saying fans want one thing (big signing or trade) and then they get it, it isn’t enough or it’s a bad move in their eyes and then want more of it to “correct” the earlier ones.

This front office is all about risk aversion and for good reason. Pretty much all of our big signings and trades have been average or sub par except for Gausman for good reason. Which shows there is inherent risk in trading for “stars” with short term or signing long term deals. Thankfully none of these deals can’t hold the team back because they have cheap, young controllable stars.

This is why homegrown players is the way to go and why most of this management team’s short term deals and underrated signings/trades have been it’s best;

-Ray
-Semien
-Teoscar
-Gurriel
-Espinal

And the headliners that fans want don’t really work out;

Ryu and Kikuchi. Berrios and Springer leave something to be desired. Happened AA too with Dickey, the Marlins trade, and Tulo and Martin’s contract didn’t age well. Same goes for JP Riccardi with the Wells deal, BJ Ryan, Frank Thomas, depending who you ask, Burnett didn’t work out all that well.

Agreed! 100%.

phillipmike nails it again. This is why I was glad we didn't blow the few good farm pieces we have on short term gains. Almost every star that becomes available through UFA or trade has already passed their prime. You end up paying in cash or assets for a player in their prime, but usually they are available because they are on the wrong side of the slope.

Unfortunately, I think last year was a rare "all in" type year, with so many players playing their best ball, but it is what it is.

Not to make this about hockey, but this is why I am glad the Leafs haven't done the full "all in" type of deadline yet. The team needs to show they can consistently threaten to win it all before you do that.

 

[phillipmike]

A list of all the position players moved at the deadline; Only Soto and maybe Bell move the needle. Next on the list is Drury and Benintendi. Jays didnt need a position player but grabbed one in Merrifield. There are only 3 players ahead of Merrifield that would have made sense for the Jays; Soto, Bell and Marsh. And Marsh isnt better than Merrifield this season.

Major League Leaderboards - 2022 - Batting | FanGraphs Baseball

www.fangraphs.com

All the starters; of who could been had, only Castillo moves the needle. Mahle cant play in Toronto and Montas hasnt recovered from injury. Quintana could have helped. Next tier of players are pretty much performing the same; Montgomery, Odorizzi, Syndergaard and White. And Jays got Mitch White.

Major League Leaderboards - 2022 - Starters | FanGraphs Baseball

www.fangraphs.com

All the relievers, but the Jays added #1 on the list in Bass and number 13 in Pop.

Major League Leaderboards - 2022 - Relievers | FanGraphs Baseball

www.fangraphs.com

I wish the Jays could have added more but outside of Soto, Castillo, Quintana and maybe Bell, not a lot of difference makers were added and even then, its what is already here that will propel you to the playoffs and how far you go. We all thought the Jays would be contending for the division and that they would be better than this but frankly they are a wildcard team. They are losing games to teams in the playoffs and in the Wildcard hunt. If you are realistic and see them as a wildcard team, you will know they arent going to be running away with a playoff spot in August.

Here are the dates the WC spots were clinched in the AL since introduction of the 2nd wildcard;
2021: Last day of the season, October 3rd (Boston and New York)
2019: September 27th (Oakland) and September 28th (Tampa)
2018: September 22nd (Yankees) and September 24th (Oakland)
2017: September 23rd (Yankees) and September 28th (Minnesota)
2016: Last day of the season, October 2nd (Toronto and Baltimore)
2015: October 1st (Yankees) and October 4th (Houston)
2014: September 27th (Kansas City) and September 28th (Oakland)
2013: Last day of the season, September 30th (Tampa Bay and Cleveland)
2012: September 29th (Baltimore) and September 30th (Rangers)

Hold on to your hats, because there will be a lot of ups and downs until the final weekend of the regular the season.

 

[shaner8989]

I hope everyone is on board with the immediate firing of all staff and management when this team misses the playoffs by a game again

This is pretty disgusting to witness.

 

[Eyedea]

I hope everyone is on board with the immediate firing of all staff and management when this team misses the playoffs by a game again

This is pretty disgusting to witness.

And what about the players? The ones that were what, a top 3 (at the very least top 5) favourite heading into the season?