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Blue Jays Discussion: The trade deadline has passed. Time to see what this can do (most acquisitions expected to be present Thursday in Minnesota)

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MAB1 said:
You don't trade the #1 prospect in all of baseball for Tarik Skubal...you trade Jansen + for him if you must.
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You're not getting Skubal for Jansen+, Jansen doesn't move the needle all that much for them at catcher and the + would have to be pretty significant.

If management isn't packaging Moreno in an Ohtani deal, I don't know what the expectations are for his return from a Jays fans POV. Skubal is going to be an ace in this league for a long time, he has a great repertoire, 4 more years of control, and he would make a phenomenal 1-2 punch with Manoah.

Here lets play a game, Manoah vs. Skubal this season

fWar: Skubal
ERA: Manoah
xERA: Manoah
FIP: Skubal
xFIP: Skubal
K/9: Skubal
BB/9: Manoah

Manoah is better, I acknowledge that. He gives up much less hard contact and is a year younger but I think management could do a lot worse than using Moreno's value to bolster the rotation for the next several years. Now the one caveat to all of this is that Al Avila is a shockingly bad GM and I would welcome the possibility of using non-Moreno prospects to get that deal done.
 
Hoverhand said:
You're not getting Skubal for Jansen+, Jansen doesn't move the needle all that much for them at catcher and the + would have to be pretty significant.

If management isn't packaging Moreno in an Ohtani deal, I don't know what the expectations are for his return from a Jays fans POV. Skubal is going to be an ace in this league for a long time, he has a great repertoire, 4 more years of control, and he would make a phenomenal 1-2 punch with Manoah.

Here lets play a game, Manoah vs. Skubal this season

fWar: Skubal
ERA: Manoah
xERA: Manoah
FIP: Skubal
xFIP: Skubal
K/9: Skubal
BB/9: Manoah

Manoah is better, I acknowledge that. He gives up much less hard contact and is a year younger but I think management could do a lot worse than using Moreno's value to bolster the rotation for the next several years. Now the one caveat to all of this is that Al Avila is a shockingly bad GM and I would welcome the possibility of using non-Moreno prospects to get that deal done.
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We already have a phenomenal one two punch Manoah and Gausman, why do we trade our #1 prospect for a luxury?
 
Bjindaho said:
So Baldelli is upset that the umps called the rule correctly because he believes that it is inconsistently applied (even though it is not inconsistently applied, it is just rarely applicable)?

Sounds like an entitled man-child who is setting a spectacular example for his team.
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He's embarrassed himself with his comments. Few will respect him.
 
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Hoverhand said:
You're not getting Skubal for Jansen+, Jansen doesn't move the needle all that much for them at catcher and the + would have to be pretty significant.

If management isn't packaging Moreno in an Ohtani deal, I don't know what the expectations are for his return from a Jays fans POV. Skubal is going to be an ace in this league for a long time, he has a great repertoire, 4 more years of control, and he would make a phenomenal 1-2 punch with Manoah.

Here lets play a game, Manoah vs. Skubal this season

fWar: Skubal
ERA: Manoah
xERA: Manoah
FIP: Skubal
xFIP: Skubal
K/9: Skubal
BB/9: Manoah

Manoah is better, I acknowledge that. He gives up much less hard contact and is a year younger but I think management could do a lot worse than using Moreno's value to bolster the rotation for the next several years. Now the one caveat to all of this is that Al Avila is a shockingly bad GM and I would welcome the possibility of using non-Moreno prospects to get that deal done.
Click to expand...
1. Skubal has had a good season, let's not pretend like he has a track record of this kind of performance. You don't trade an ace package for a #2/3 starter, that's how you get a Dickey situation.

2. You move Moreno in a deal for a guy like Alcantara, Burnes, McClanahan, Ohtani, Soto, etc. The main piece or one of the main pieces of a superstar deal. You don't deal him for a pitcher that's having a good year but hasn't shown anything close to this performance in years past and would at most be your #3 starter. The Jays don't need that, they need someone who can push Manoah or Gausman down a spot.

BTV isn't perfect but Jansen + Martinez + Zulueta + Biggio gets Skubal. And still leaves Moreno and Tiedemann.

Why are you so insistent to get rid of Moreno? There's no reason why he and Kirk can't split catching duties next year, it's not the kind of position you want to overwork any one player. Since Kirk's bat plays better in the lineup he can have less games at C and more at DH but Moreno is by no means some free wallet to a marginable upgrade.

Trading Kirk for you is not an option after less than a full season of opportunity and yet you want to trade a better prospect than Kirk just because? Trade Jansen, it's not that difficult.
 
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Bjindaho said:
So Baldelli is upset that the umps called the rule correctly because he believes that it is inconsistently applied (even though it is not inconsistently applied, it is just rarely applicable)?

Sounds like an entitled man-child who is setting a spectacular example for his team.
Click to expand...

Do the umps make the call in the review or was it a team in NY? I thought it was the latter
 
Suntouchable13 said:
We already have a phenomenal one two punch Manoah and Gausman, why do we trade our #1 prospect for a luxury?
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We don't know what kind of regression we're going to see from Gausman as he gets deeper into his 30s. Adding Skubal to this rotation w/ Tiedemann on the way in the next couple years, you could have the best rotation in baseball by 2024/2025.
 
Hoverhand said:
We don't know what kind of regression we're going to see from Gausman as he gets deeper into his 30s. Adding Skubal to this rotation w/ Tiedemann on the way in the next couple years, you could have the best rotation in baseball by 2024/2025.
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You're accounting for regression from Gausman but not realizing that Skubal hasn't had a season close to what he's doing this year? What if he pulls a Trevor Rogers and regresses next season?

Skubal has a 6.33 ERA against AL East teams this year (1x Boston, Baltimore, Toronto).
 
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The thing with Ohtani is not only the assets you would have to give up in a trade but apparently he’s looking for at least 50 mil/year on a new contract. Plus how bad will that deal look in his mid to late 30’s? He’s probably in his prime right now so the first few years will be golden but the last 3-4 might be ugly.
 
stats1 said:
The thing with Ohtani is not only the assets you would have to give up in a trade but apparently he’s looking for at least 50 mil/year on a new contract. Plus how bad will that deal look in his mid to late 30’s? He’s probably in his prime right now so the first few years will be golden but the last 3-4 might be ugly.
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If I’m acquiring Ohtani I’m not thinking about the deal 4+ years from now.

You’re adding too end pitcher and hitter in one to boost your team in two areas.

That being said as I’ve mentioned before the Jays already have a nice setup to balance the DH spot with Springer, Vladdy, and Kirk… so if you put Ohtani there you’re altering that set up as well which you have to ask how much a additional value are your getting at the spot.
 
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BertCorbeau said:
If I’m acquiring Ohtani I’m not thinking about the deal 4+ years from now.

You’re adding too end pitcher and hitter in one to boost your team in two areas.

That being said as I’ve mentioned before the Jays already have a nice setup to balance the DH spot with Springer, Vladdy, and Kirk… so if you put Ohtani there you’re altering that set up as well which you have to ask how much a additional value are your getting at the spot.
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Exactly. There is no cap, and it’s not our money.
 
So the LF wall at camden yards is something like 25ft further away than the last time the jays played there.

Only fair for teams to now do this stuff when you allow the yankees to build their stadium the way they did.

Jays will be lessening the foul territory, moving the bullpens slightly in and having a lower CF wall with a better back drop for hitting.
 
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Discoverer said:
This is awesome, thanks for posting. I would have guessed they were one of the top few, but probably not first and definitely not by that much.
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This actually has a direct impact on fWAR. A guy like Chapman is actually hurt by our positioning because he gets to more balls overall, but he's closer to them (because fielding metrics are based on range covered from starting position and ignore better positioning).
 
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phillipmike said:
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De Jesus hit a HR in his first game. FCL seems really low for him since he was in A+ with the Dodgers. I would assume it's some sort of getting used to the organization thing and he'll be with Vancouver in the future. Toman went 1 for 3 with a single and a sac fly. He played SS.
 
CatchyTune said:
What is the FCL Jays?
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Used to be the Gulf Coast League now Florida Complex League. The level below Dunedin, and the lowest level in the USA. There's also the Dominican Summer League(DSL) but guys who go there are usually the international free agents. The FCL is where most high school drafted players get assigned and is filled out with guys who graduated from the DSL
 
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phillipmike said:


I would have guessed they were no where near the top of the league.
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I like most of what they do in terms of shifting.

My only complaint is that I feel they sometimes outsmart themselves by over-shifting on guys with the bat control to cross up the shift. Even if the stats say that Player X usually pulls the ball (against a non-extreme shift where they have no reason not to hit to their strengths), some guys have the ability to bonk it into LF if you leave that entire side open. Joey Gallo is always going to plow it into the shift no matter what. Jorge Polanco maybe not so much.
 
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MS said:
I like most of what they do in terms of shifting.

My only complaint is that I feel they sometimes outsmart themselves by over-shifting on guys with the bat control to cross up the shift. Even if the stats say that Player X usually pulls the ball (against a non-extreme shift where they have no reason not to hit to their strengths), some guys have the ability to bonk it into LF if you leave that entire side open. Joey Gallo is always going to plow it into the shift no matter what. Jorge Polanco maybe not so much.
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Would you rather just give him the single or just straighten out the fielders? Sometimes a harmless single with no one on is ok.
 
Suntouchable13 said:
Would you rather just give him the single or just straighten out the fielders? Sometimes a harmless single with no one on is ok.
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I'd just like to see a less extreme shift on certain players who have the ability to cross the shift up. Leave one guy in the region of SS instead of having everyone on the other side of 2nd.
 
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