Blue Jays Discussion: The trade deadline approaches (Tue, Aug 2 at 6pm ET/3pm PT) and the market is taking shape

[Bjindaho]

He's at 95.3 for the year. He's at 95.4 for his career.

Romano's velocity is also down. Is he a declining asset too?

I guess by a certain morbid logic, we're all declining assets.

96.4 and 96.3 the last two years (which were his best two of his career). When he throws harder, he is better.

What were the Jays weaknesses going into the deadline? BP help and a spare OF in case Springer needs IL time.
What did the Jays do? In: Bass (better than Iglesias, but keep being in denial), Pop (Cimber, Mayza, Phelps type arm + more potential), White (similar #'s and stuff to Syndergaard, more control), Merrifield (if he can get back on track he's more than a spare OF).

None of the arms available were worth their top 2 prospects. Juan Soto sucks missing out on but at the end of the day, the Yankees, Dodgers, Padres, Jays, Cardinals were all in on him and only one team can get him.

The Jays are trying to win right now, they're a top 3 AL, top 6 team in all of MLB, would be the division leader in 2 out of the 6 divisions. And their best players are here for a while. Go follow the Leafs if you wanna see a rushed build.

The Jays were out on Soto once he crossed the Manoah line. Again, he would have taken a package including Manoah, Bo, Moreno, and Tiedemann, which the Jays weren't going to do (rightfully so).

 

[Bjindaho]

Yuck!

 

[MAB1]

96.4 and 96.3 the last two years (which were his best two of his career). When he throws harder, he is better.


The Jays were out on Soto once he crossed the Manoah line. Again, he would have taken a package including Manoah, Bo, Moreno, and Tiedemann, which the Jays weren't going to do (rightfully so).

When was this reported.

 

[Kurtz]

96.4 and 96.3 the last two years (which were his best two of his career). When he throws harder, he is better.


The Jays were out on Soto once he crossed the Manoah line. Again, he would have taken a package including Manoah, Bo, Moreno, and Tiedemann, which the Jays weren't going to do (rightfully so).

Do you notice a pattern where team x gets a player for a bunch of prospects (mostly high-A I believe) but supposedly for us to get that same player, a prospect package (including arguably the #1 prospect in baseball) would not be enough and we'd have to include a bunch of young, producing major league stars too?

How does that work exactly?

 

[inthe6ix]

Hopefully. Jays play a lot of road games in August so it may not affect them as much in the next week or so but we need this guy to get the jab otherwise that would be a major problem

Royals send Whit Merrifield to Blue Jays for 2 players | Globalnews.ca

KANSAS CITY, Mo. (AP) — Whit Merrifield said last month he might be willing to get vaccinated against COVID-19 if it meant playing for a team in contention, even though he had refused to get the shot while playing for the last-place Kansas City Royals.

globalnews.ca

Whit Merrifield said last month he might be willing to get vaccinated against COVID-19 if it meant playing for a team in contention, even though he had refused to get the shot while playing for the last-place Kansas City Royals.

This trade would be an epic fail if Atkins couldn't convince him to get the jab.

Here's hoping he will be in the lineup Aug 12th vs CLE.

 

[Kurtz]

What were the Jays weaknesses going into the deadline? BP help and a spare OF in case Springer needs IL time.
What did the Jays do? In: Bass (better than Iglesias, but keep being in denial), Pop (Cimber, Mayza, Phelps type arm + more potential), White (similar #'s and stuff to Syndergaard, more control), Merrifield (if he can get back on track he's more than a spare OF).

None of the arms available were worth their top 2 prospects. Juan Soto sucks missing out on but at the end of the day, the Yankees, Dodgers, Padres, Jays, Cardinals were all in on him and only one team can get him.

The Jays are trying to win right now, they're a top 3 AL, top 6 team in all of MLB, would be the division leader in 2 out of the 6 divisions. And their best players are here for a while. Go follow the Leafs if you wanna see a rushed build.

Iglesias would have cost us our ~20th best prospect and cash.

I like the fluid logic of these types of posts btw. Bass is having an unsustainably great year - gee, he must be better than a proven closer like Iglesias. But Whit is having a bad year...but that's ok because surely he'll bounce back to his old self and be a good OF again.

ps: Leafs did not rush the rebuild under Shanahan, that's insane to suggest. And I do follow the Leafs, which is why I'm on the Leafs board.

 

[nilan30]

Once Merrifield is here and if Springer is healthy does that mean Zimmer will be DFA'd or sent down or whatever? Springer/Gurriel/Hernandez/Tapia/Merrifield/Zimmer seems like one too many OF's. Especially with Biggio able to play out there if needed.

OF Springer/Gurriel/Hernandez/Tapia/Merrifield
IF Guerrero/Espinal/Bichette/Chapman/Biggio
C Kirk/Jansen

Biggio and Merrifield provide a lot by being able to play all over the diamond.

 

[theaub]

That's an absurd take. The idea that we shouldn't bother trying to significantly improve ourselves right now because some of our best players are still very young is on its face ridiculous. We're in our contention window right now. We should be trying to win right now.

Yeah its the exact inverse of this. The fact that the majority of our best players are still on controllable contracts is exactly why they should be aggressively going for it.

That being said I don't hate the deadline (assuming Merrifield gets the jab). No reason to take on the full Iglesias salary although he's clearly a far more proven commoidity than Bass.

 

[MAB1]

Do you notice a pattern where team x gets a player for a bunch of prospects (mostly high-A I believe) but supposedly for us to get that same prospect, a prospect package (including arguably the #1 prospect in baseball) would not be enough and we'd have to include a bunch of young, producing major league stars too?

How does that work exactly?

What player was this? Soto? The main pieces in that deal weren't mostly high-A lmao

Yeah its the exact inverse of this. The fact that the majority of our best players are still on controllable contracts is exactly why they should be aggressively going for it.

That being said I don't hate the deadline (assuming Merrifield gets the jab). No reason to take on the full Iglesias salary although he's clearly a far more proven commoidity than Bass.

So the fact that the majority of our best players are still on controllable contracts means we trade our top prospects that'll be needed when those controllable contracts become expensive? Interesting logic.

Homegrown players are the most valuable asset in baseball due to their lack of cost + years of control. The Astros/Dodgers don't "go for it" they just consistently build elite teams around the players they have, regardless of losing say a Springer or Correa or Seager.

 

[theaub]

So the fact that the majority of our best players are still on controllable contracts means we trade our top prospects that'll be needed when those controllable contracts become expensive? Interesting logic.

That is how maximizing a contention window works, yes.

e: and to hop onto the edit, not a single person in here has suggested blowing up the farm unless it was for a generational 23 year old.

e2: and to keep adding onto it, the Astros play in an absolute joke of a divison and the Dodgers have a $300M payroll.

 

[Kurtz]

What player was this? Soto? The main pieces in that deal weren't mostly high-A lmao


So the fact that the majority of our best players are still on controllable contracts means we trade our top prospects that'll be needed when those controllable contracts become expensive? Interesting logic.

Go look up the prospect return for Soto and count all the major-league ready or near-ready prospects they got aside from Gore.

No, for the 10th time, the fact that some of our best players are on great deals for the next year means that we should be willing to spend money now on guys like Iglesias.

 

[MAB1]

That is how maximizing a contention window works, yes.

Yes because we constantly see the Dodgers and Astros go all-in...ya know, two teams with the longest current contention windows in MLB. Astros should've traded Alvarez/Pena years ago when they were prospects so they could've had a better shot in a couple specific years.

Maybe the Nats should've traded Soto when he was a prospect in the Harper/Scherzer/Strasburg early years?

 

[theaub]

Yes because we constantly see the Dodgers and Astros go all-in...ya know, two teams with the longest current contention windows in MLB. Astros should've traded Alvarez/Pena years ago when they were prospects so they could've had a better shot in a couple specific years.

Maybe the Nats should've traded Soto when he was a prospect in the Harper/Scherzer/Strasburg early years?

Keep strawmaning and maybe you'll convince someone!

 

[Da Cool Rula]

 

[MAB1]

Go look up the prospect return for Soto and count all the major-league ready or near-ready prospects they got aside from Gore.

No, for the 10th time, the fact that some of our best players are on great deals for the next year means that we should be willing to spend money now on guys like Iglesias.

The Nats got:

- Gore (23 year old in the Majors, 1st season)
- Abrams (21 year old, first full MLB season)
- Hassell (ETA of 2023, became the Nats top prospect)
- Luke Voit
- two lower level lottery tickets with immense potential

So 3 MLB players, one A+ player with an ETA of 2023 and two lottery tickets...

That's what you're complaining about?

Keep strawmaning and maybe you'll convince someone!

I don't need to convince anyone lmao. The Jays front office appears to be taking the long-term approach which is what I'm advocating. You're the one who might need to hold on for comfort.

Name a team that took the all-in approach to emptying their farm to maximize a shorter window...and it actually working.

 

[Kurtz]

Keep strawmaning and maybe you'll convince someone!

Hey, don't you remember how the Astros trading Teoscar to us for a rental totally ruined their franchise?

 

[MAB1]

Hey, don't you remember how the Astros trading Teoscar to us for a rental totally ruined their franchise?

Teo was a top prospect in the Astros farm system now? lmaooo

 

[Eyedea]

That's an absurd take. The idea that we shouldn't bother trying to significantly improve ourselves right now because some of our best players are still very young is on its face ridiculous. We're in our contention window right now. We should be trying to win right now.

And no, Bass is not better than Iglesias. Some of you keep falling for tiny sample sizes and there's nothing that can snap you out of it, seemingly. Btw our BP could have used both Bass and Iglesias, it's simple-minded to posit this as a choice between the two.

Increased slider usage, more chases and whiffs, hard to be this good without a little luck but he's still dominating no matter the sample. He was a different beast entirely when he was last with the Jays. He was actually kinda like Pop. Stuck with the sinker, got a lot of groundballs and limited barrels. Lot of red on his statcast page like Yimi and to a lesser extent Cimber.

I like Iglesias and expressed interest but only in the event that the Angels ate salary. Him at 16m aav for 3 years is too rich.

 

[Kurtz]

The Nats got:

- Gore (23 year old in the Majors, 1st season)
- Abrams (21 year old, first full MLB season)
- Hassell (ETA of 2023, became the Nats top prospect)
- Luke Voit
- two lower level lottery tickets with immense potential

So 3 MLB players, one A+ player with an ETA of 2023 and two lottery tickets...

Correct, I'm glad you finally did some research here. The meat of the package (aside from Gore) was 3 high-A guys. I'm glad you learned something today.

Teo was a top prospect in the Astros farm system now? lmaooo

You continue to miss the point entirely. They dealt a prospect who became a star. It didn't ruin their franchise. You needn't live in fear and ignorance.

 

[stickty111]

That's an absurd take. The idea that we shouldn't bother trying to significantly improve ourselves right now because some of our best players are still very young is on its face ridiculous. We're in our contention window right now. We should be trying to win right now.

And no, Bass is not better than Iglesias. Some of you keep falling for tiny sample sizes and there's nothing that can snap you out of it, seemingly. Btw our BP could have used both Bass and Iglesias, it's simple-minded to posit this as a choice between the two.

I don't even know how it's comparable to the Leafs. I do agree both situations are similar in the sense both managenent groups aren't/weren't aggressive enough in a window. The difference is Leafs at least tried to address their weaknesses in an impactful way.
For example
A few seasons ago Leafs defence had a huge hole. What do they do? They add the best defenceman on the market in Muzzin and weren't afraid to pay a price for it.
They had a goalie issue the next season and add Campbell subtracting from their excess forward depth.
2 seasons ago they needed a gritty playoff type player and added Foligno. I was against that trade but they tried to fix a weakness too bad it was a disaster.
Last year needed another defencemen and added Gio who is still good even at his age.
The problem for Leafs is being stubborn on their core but thats different than the point I'm making.

Jays management too many times has settled for cheap moves that might make a bit of a difference but not enough. I know they added Berrios and thats good work but thats rare. I'm not counting Chapman as thats off season stuff.

 

[MAB1]

Correct, I'm glad you finally did some research here. The meat of the package (aside from Gore) was 3 high-A guys. I'm glad you learned something today.



You continue to miss the point entirely. They dealt a prospect who became a star. It didn't ruin their franchise. You needn't live in fear and ignorance.

Oh really? Then why was Gore, Abrams and Hassell the top 3 valued assets of that trade? You know...two MLB regulars at 22/23 and another with an ETA of 2023? Abrams was the most valuable piece of that trade, then Hassell and Gore. Unless you're just making up baseball values at this point.

 

[Kurtz]

Increased slider usage, more chases and whiffs, hard to be this good without a little luck but he's still dominating no matter the sample. He was a different beast entirely when he was last with the Jays. He was actually kinda like Pop. Stuck with the sinker, got a lot of groundballs and limited barrels. Lot of red on his statcast page like Yimi and to a lesser extent Cimber.

I like Iglesias and expressed interest but only in the event that the Angels ate salary. Him at 16m aav for 3 years is too rich.

I actually liked Bass as a Jay - imo this is a fine pickup.

I wouldn't say he's dominating though with a K/9 of 9, despite what his ERA says. Definitely due for a regression imo. Hopefully I'm wrong.

 

[stickty111]

Iglesias would have cost us our ~20th best prospect and cash.

I like the fluid logic of these types of posts btw. Bass is having an unsustainably great year - gee, he must be better than a proven closer like Iglesias. But Whit is having a bad year...but that's ok because surely he'll bounce back to his old self and be a good OF again.

ps: Leafs did not rush the rebuild under Shanahan, that's insane to suggest. And I do follow the Leafs, which is why I'm on the Leafs board.

Thank you. People will point to Tavares but thats a superstar, you add him and figure it out after that.

 

[Kurtz]

Oh really? Then why was Gore, Abrams and Hassell the top 3 valued assets of that trade? You know...two MLB regulars at 22/23 and another with an ETA of 2023? Abrams was the most valuable piece of that trade after Gore. Unless you're just making up baseball values at this point.

Most of the value of that package is currently in High-A, which is what I stated and was seemingly a surprise to you.

Anyway, we can get off this silly topic it's a waste of everyone's time.

Thank you. People will point to Tavares but thats a superstar, you add him and figure it out after that.

That was such a dumb statement to make on a Leafs board that it's hard to believe.

I mean we did have a case this past decade where we did in fact rush the rebuild - the Kessel trade, but that would take a bit of knowledge to reference.

 

[MAB1]

Most of the value of that package is currently in High-A, which is what I stated and was seemingly a surprise to you.

Anyway, we can get off this silly topic it's a waste of everyone's time.

LOL

Abrams - 47.1 BTV (MLB)
Hassell - 38.7 BTV (A+)
Gore - 29.6 BTV (MLB)
Wood + Susana = 28.1 BTV (A, ROK)

So 76.70 BTV coming from MLB players, 66.80 coming from players in A+ at most, the main piece of which has an ETA of 2023 so not a typical A+ talent.

"Most of the value of that package is currently in High-A"