JimEIV
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- Feb 19, 2003
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OT: The Thread About Nothing Part 190: Terrorists, Wild Trout, Microbeers, and Stuff
- Thread starter BenedictGomez
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anyone who thinks gays are more welcome in US society then are christians are straight fooling themselves.
DatBoyJPP
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Scott04
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No one said its universal acceptance. But both are widely accepted and widely condemned. Just depends what arena you're discussing it for what response you may get.
# of openly christian presidents vs's #of openly gay presidents? 40 something to zero.
# of openly christian athletes vs's # of openly gay athletes? 10,000 to 1 ish?
# of openly christian athletes vs's # of openly gay athletes? 10,000 to 1 ish?
DatBoyJPP
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Scott04
Registered User
You're going to compare society from 240 years ago to now? Even with the whole separation of church and state thing, there was a lot of religious foundation in the early years of this country. That was the norm in society. That's how it has always been. But that has greatly softened as time has passed. A larger rise and acceptance of alternative beliefs (or even the lack of religious beliefs) has grown over time. Something something... progressive society... etc. Its not a pure numbers game. Number of people that identify themselves as part of a protected class does not equal society's acceptance of said class. Openly gay people are far more accepted today than they were 200+ years ago. They are more accepted than they were 100 years ago. They are more accepted than they were 10 years ago. They are more accepted than they were a year ago. That's how society works.
BenedictGomez
Corsi is GROSSLY overrated
Might have something to do with the fact that there were likely zero gay presidents in American history (though one was admittedly rumored to possibly be gay).
Exactly.
This big, scary, brave, daring act, = **crickets**. Nobody cares, except for those who are screaming from the treetops about how wonderful it is. Like I said, manufactured civil rights story.
Very well said.
DatBoyJPP
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Scott04
Registered User
At the very least, no one seems to have any problem with the ACT of it all. Which is good. The acceptance issue is all tied to people's beliefs about whether or not there is something wrong with being gay, or are connected to a broader debate about same-sex marriages (and in some cases the religious component that ties into it all). Thankfully, few people care about the act of coming out. The more accepted that becomes, the easier it (should) become for the reality of it all to be accepted. At least, in the sports world maybe.
Does the fact that there have likely been zero gay presidents hurt my argument?
As to how many people care? Hey it would be a good thing if nobody cared. but on this board I see guys upset that poor old tebow gets ripped on for being christian(I must have missed this whole episode) while the Collins lovefest which is in day 2 and prob won't last but a couple more days is said to be overblown.
Scott04
Registered User
Collins is much closer to being "the first of his kind" as only so many athletes have come out as being openly gay, and he is the first one to do so as an active player. Its more of a groundbreaking thing. And groundbreaking things are much bigger stories (and meet a lot of public acceptance) in a progressive society.
Tebow is far from the first openly Christian athlete. Definitely not the first to be so devout. Definitely not the first to fit that bill while being a professional athlete. Tebow is a source of attention because of his notoriety on the field. This goes back to college, not just him with the Jets, or even the late season run with the Broncos. The religious part of it is a source of attention because of how devout he is, and how it has been in the news for years (it was out there when he was at Florida, I remember it being a big thing when he was mic'd up during some game at some level and was verbally quite religiously influence, and other instances with him publicly speaking at churches/supporting causes, etc). That's just one of the many components of the whole Tebow saga, and plays into his character and personality.
That, and for whatever reason, there is some backlash against organized religion these days, so those that are viewed as devout (or any religion really) are a topic of criticism for their beliefs. As always, it usually comes from extremists of whatever set of beliefs, but the chatter is there. Christianity is just one of the main recipients of that criticism because of its prevalence in this country.
Well you are acknowledging the presidential aspect argument of my argument. Which even if I were unfairly using data from a couple hundred years again still does not change the overall point, which is, we have never had a gay president, yet u basically need to be christian to become president in the US.
AND
U ignore the athletics side of my argument. TODAY there are thousands of openly christian pro male athletes. There is 1 openly gay pro male athlete.
To say Gays are as welcome in society as are christians is straight false. and this idea that tebow is struggling for acceptance because of his christianity? C'mon guys. Dude is a well below average pro QB. Yet is one of the most publicised. Top 5 easy.
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njdevsfn95
Help JJJ, Sprite.
- Jul 30, 2006
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Don't disagree. But I don't think my argument is with u. It is with those that think Tebow is getting a raw deal because of being so openly christian. Dude has been given way more then a fair shake.
As per JC. We are a couple days into the story, and he may forever be known as the first, but this will not be an ongoing story. This is a sidenote in one weeks time. Unlike Tebow, who will still be a story all summer long.
DatBoyJPP
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Scott04
Registered User
And you are entirely missing the key point in my post which responds to everything you just said above. The number of people in a specific class is not indicative of society's acceptance of that class. How many Jewish pro athletes do you see? Does that mean Jews are not accepted in this country? Of course there are anti-semitic people out there, but they are not the majority. But since they are not nearly as numerous as Christian athletes, they are not accepted according to your logic. It is not a pure numbers game. There is a level of acceptance and a level of resistance to ALL classes/groups/sets of beliefs.
To go on your presidential argument. You know why we've never had an openly gay president? Its the same reason why it took until 2008 and our nation's 44th president for someone who was not a white Christian male to be elected president. People vote for who they identify with, be it because of background, religion, political issues, etc. This nation has always been predominantly Christian. On such a grand scale of politics, where it is (largely) about getting as many votes as you can (electoral college and past election results not withstanding). How do you do this? Identify with as many people as you can. Why are both Republicans and Democrats already speculating over who will be their political candidate (or at least, the front runner, as primaries are still years away) for the 2016 election? They're not sifting through who would make the best president for this country. Neither party gives a **** about that. They care about who has the best chance to win. And who can identify with the most classes of people to get the most votes and/or to win the necessary states to win the election. Its a pretty simple science.
While I'm sure there are gay politicians out there at some level of public office, simply put it is not yet the societal climate for them get elected as president. One day, it will definitely be, but its not yet. This is still a hot topic issue, and will be for some time. But just because there hasn't been one yet doesn't mean there's a lack of acceptance. Its just not as accepted (yet) as institutions of this nation's history.
And to go back to your last paragraph, you still don't seem to understand my post. Did I ever say acceptance was equal? I said both are accepted, both are condemned. It just comes down to what arena you're discussing which. To think there is no backlash against Christianity, or any other group of people, in one arena or another is just ignorance.
DatBoyJPP
Good Night
I'm bowing out of this argument but if anyone thinks pro sports in America is anti-gay follow the Robbie Rogers story. Literally all 19 MLS teams are fighting for his services right now. Sounds pretty accepting to me
Scott04
Registered User
No one thinks Tebow gets a raw deal because of his open religious beliefs. He doesn't get a raw deal at all. He gets criticized for his beliefs by people who want to attack his character. If someone wants to criticize his football ability, its pretty damn easy to find a good enough argument. The people that hate Tebow want to make it about hating the guy, which is admittedly pretty hard to do. Regardless of how you feel about his religious beliefs, he is a very nice guy and does a lot of admirable charity work. Whether or not that its as a result of his religious beliefs is irrelevant.
If the Jason Collins thing is a sidenote, its only the person associated with the act. The topic and the act itself will not become sidenotes. At least not for years until there is a much broader acceptance in more spectrums. As has been said plenty, many look forward to the day when someone can come out and the reaction can be "....so?" as coming out will be even more widely accepted and doesn't have to be a noteworthy story. But the issue it represents is not going to be a side note any time soon. It kinda connects to the whole "equal rights" thing, which has kind of been a big topic in a large portion of this nation's history.
Scott, do we think Collins is the first gay male pro athlete(4 major sports) or just first openly gay.
And your points which are fair, still ignore that all of my points have been counterarguments to the idea that Tebow is getting a raw deal while Collins was given a path softened with rose pedals. As if to say it is easier to be a gay athlete or even US citizen then it is to be a christian athlete or citizen. I argue that as straight false.
Sure acceptance of gay athletes is much higher today then ever before, but compared to christian athlete? Is this really debateable?
And your points which are fair, still ignore that all of my points have been counterarguments to the idea that Tebow is getting a raw deal while Collins was given a path softened with rose pedals. As if to say it is easier to be a gay athlete or even US citizen then it is to be a christian athlete or citizen. I argue that as straight false.
Sure acceptance of gay athletes is much higher today then ever before, but compared to christian athlete? Is this really debateable?
BenedictGomez
Corsi is GROSSLY overrated
Clearly. But you're the one who set the constraints to that argument, so blame yourself.
There have only been 44 presidents in America's history, and it is highly probable that ZERO have been gay. But it has nothing to do with discrimination, it has to do with the fact that N = 44.
If N = 2,444 and there were still no gay presidents, then I would acknowledge the statistical significance of your argument, but it isnt.
That's part of the point I'm trying to make. That "day" is essentially pretty much here, it's just that there is a certain segment of society that ideologically refuses to acknowledge or "let go" of the fact that that day is here. It is a false narrative to say that there is rampant anti-gay sentiment or rampant gay discrimination in America. Frankly, if people believe that, I dont think they have a relative grasp on the definition of "discrimination" as it applies to civil rights, either historically or in America OR even globally.
Exactly. To put it pictorially.
I forget who it was, but one woman athlete was noting how it is much easier to be a gay female athlete then it is a gay male athlete. Pretty famous contemporary.
Side note: My girlfriend rented her apartment to a gay female b-ball player who played for the liberty. And then she left a loaded weapon in the apt after she moved out. I think her dad made her get it, and then she forgot about it(hidden on the top shelf in the closet).
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