Blue Jays Discussion: The "So, How About Them Blue Jays?" Edition. [1.5 Games ahead of Yankees]

[tp71]

Ignoring the correlation between pitch quality and batting order position is at the very least "lazy", if you ask me. I could easily think of a better word.

How you chalk up this relationship to "lazy" analysis is easily one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on this board.

I suppose line-matchups in hockey to you are fictional too, right?

Actually, with Donaldson and Bautista behind him, he should get great quality. Not gonna want to put him on base for free with an MVP candidate coming up behind him. He's hitting balls hard. Theyre just not falling. Diamond Joe is right. You're not.

His opinions on hockey have nothing to do with baseball. Don't compare them.

 

[BackHandShelf22]

Ignoring the correlation between pitch quality and batting order position is at the very least "lazy", if you ask me. I could easily think of a better word.

How you chalk up this relationship to "lazy" analysis is easily one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on this board.

I suppose line-matchups in hockey to you are fictional too, right?

He's not ignoring it, it's just not weighted heavily. There's much more to a player's struggles than where that person hits in the lineup which was your primary point.

 

[p.l.f.]

i'd like to see it for a few games, esp. now that revere has a hot stick and tulo isn't hitting with much power at all, it might do him some good

revere
donaldson
bautista
encarnacion
tulowitzki

i mean it looks good doesnt it
if it fails for whatever reason after a couple games revert back to tulo leading off again.
if it's joe madden's team he would juggle the lineup every night lol

 

[Del Preston]

Arencibia is catching for the Rays tonight.

 

[Bomber0104]

Actually, with Donaldson and Bautista behind him, he should get great quality. Not gonna want to put him on base for free with an MVP candidate coming up behind him. He's hitting balls hard. Theyre just not falling. Diamond Joe is right. You're not.

His opinions on hockey have nothing to do with baseball. Don't compare them.

Which is exactly what I said two posts ago...if you have actually been reading along.

Where Troy Tulowitzki is hitting affects how pitchers decide to pitch to him.

He has struggled with the most fearsome trio in the majors followed up right after him.

How much more of a clue than that do you need to conclude this guy is having serious issues at the plate?

So...

Once again...

The guy is struggling hard with the most fearsome batting trio in the majors padding him.

How is this not a tell-tale sign that the guy is absolutely lost at the plate?

How much time are we going to give him to figure it out in the most important month in 20 years?

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Ignoring the correlation between pitch quality and batting order position is at the very least "lazy", if you ask me. I could easily think of a better word.

How you chalk up this relationship to "lazy" analysis is easily one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on this board.

I suppose line-matchups in hockey to you are fictional too, right?

See there's your mistake compadre. This isn't hockey. It's part of what makes this game so beautiful. Every little piece of it is quantifiable and measurable.

So, I can look at you (figuratively) desperately grasping for straws, and simply say: "quantify it".

Head on over to fangraphs, break out the splits of the pitches seen, their quality, type and distribution, and show me the material difference from Tulo's career, and 1st half 2015 vs. his time as a Blue Jay batting 1st. It's most certainly available and easily retrieved.

Or you can save us both the time, and refer back to #6 in the previous post.

 

[BackHandShelf22]

Which is exactly what I said two posts ago...if you have actually been reading along.



So...

Once again...

The guy is struggling hard with the most fearsome batting trio in the majors padding him.

How is this not a tell-tale sign that the guy is struggling hard?

How much time are we going to give him to figure it out in the most important month in 20 years?

He's also proven to be able to take a walk. Something that's useful at the top of the lineup. If there's one place for him to work out his swing, which by the look of all the hard hit liners lately is coming along, it's there.

 

[p.l.f.]

Rodney to Cubs

 

[Bomber0104]

See there's your mistake compadre. This isn't hockey. It's part of what makes this game so beautiful. Every little piece of it is quantifiable and measurable.

So, I can look at you (figuratively) desperately grasping for straws, and simply say: "quantify it".

Head on over to fangraphs, break out the splits of the pitches seen, their quality, type and distribution, and show me the material difference from Tulo's career, and 1st half 2015 vs. his time as a Boue Jay batting 1st. It's most certainly available and easily retrieved.

Or you can save us both the time, and refer back to #6 in the previous post.

Or you can admit the guy is lost in space right now and needs to be moved out of that spot, for both his and the ball club's sake.

I'm glad you like the idea of Tulo hitting in the most sheltered spot in the batting order (leadoff), but the results demonstrate it's failing.

It's time you picked another battle.

 

[Bomber0104]

He's also proven to be able to take a walk. Something that's useful at the top of the lineup. If there's one place for him to work out his swing, which by the look of all the hard hit liners lately is coming along, it's there.

Sorry, but the numbers don't justify him being held in this position.

It's as sheltered a spot as you'll find in the majors, and he's not producing at all in it.

This isn't the time to place one guy ahead of the club's post-season aspirations.

If this was May or June, I'd be game. But not September.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Or you can admit the guy is lost in space right now and needs to be moved out of that spot, for both his and the ball club's sake.

I'm glad you like the idea of Tulo hitting in the most sheltered spot in the batting order (leadoff), but the results demonstrate it's failing.

It's time you picked another battle.

He's not entirely lost. He's hit the ball hard, they just haven't fallen in place. His BABIP is well below his career norm, it's bound to correct a least a little. He provides a good eye at the plate and can take walks.

It's always team above the individual, and the team is 21-5 with him leading off ... Ergo it's not a failure.

I agree that I'd prefer Tulo as a mid order bat ideally, but the Jays don't have that quality lead off hitter right now. Stick with what's working for the team and trust that Tulo's numbers should rebound back to his career norms

 

[Bomber0104]

He's not entirely lost. He's hit the ball hard, they just haven't fallen in place. His BABIP is well below his career norm, it's bound to correct a least a little. He provides a good eye at the plate and can take walks.

It's always team above the individual, and the team is 21-5 with him leading off ... Ergo it's not a failure.

I agree that I'd prefer Tulo as a mid order bat ideally, but the Jays don't have that quality lead off hitter right now. Stick with what's working for the team and trust that Tulo's numbers should rebound back to his career norms

I'm alright with riding it out a little while longer provided Ben Revere is batting 9th at all times.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I'm alright with riding it out a little while longer provided Ben Revere is batting 9th at all times.

I like that idea as well

 

[BackHandShelf22]

Sorry, but the numbers don't justify him being held in this position.

It's as sheltered a spot as you'll find in the majors, and he's not producing at all in it.

This isn't the time to place one guy ahead of the club's post-season aspirations.

If this was May or June, I'd be game. But not September.

The team is actually putting their best foot forward by putting him in that spot. The fact that they can go on the streak they have while Tulo works out of his struggles, should be proof alone that this process is fine. He's made hard contact consistently the last few games. If there's one way to get your best players going, it's putting them in the best position to succeed. And that's infront of the big hitters.


The numbers you speak of are part of a slump that began well before he joined the jays and in the leadoff position. He isn't hurting the club by simply batting leadoff and is due for natural hot streak as his numbers rise back to the mean.

Furthermore insulting well established posters who I enjoy reading like DJQ just because you disagree is rather insulting myself.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Or you can admit the guy is lost in space right now and needs to be moved out of that spot, for both his and the ball club's sake.

I'm glad you like the idea of Tulo hitting in the most sheltered spot in the batting order (leadoff), but the results demonstrate it's failing.

It's time you picked another battle.

I'm actually really enjoying laying the wood on you.

Something about someone stumbling out of their element, armed with nothing but their opinion and a hot take, and gently explaining to them laugh that they have no proof with freshman level Statistics doctrine just puts a smile on my face.

 

[Bomber0104]

I'm actually really enjoying laying the wood on you.

Something about someone stumbling out of their element, armed with nothing but their opinion and a hot take, and gently explaining to them laugh that they have no proof with freshman level Statistics doctrine just puts a smile on my face.

Laying the wood on me?

Is that what they call not understanding how a batting order is created, nowadays?

Because that's all you've really demonstrated here...

I know lapping up everything AA does is the trendy thing to do these days but it's OK to admit when something isn't working.

That's all I'm proposing here.

 

[BackHandShelf22]

I know lapping up everything AA does is the trendy thing to do these days but it's OK to admit when something isn't working.

That's all I'm proposing here.

AA sets the batting order. You heard it here first.

 

[Woodman19]

I'm actually really enjoying laying the wood on you.

Something about someone stumbling out of their element, armed with nothing but their opinion and a hot take, and gently explaining to them laugh that they have no proof with freshman level Statistics doctrine just puts a smile on my face.

Come on DJQ, your 5 years of insightful and analytical posting is no match for someones gut feeling without any explanation.

 

[Bomber0104]

The team is actually putting their best foot forward by putting him in that spot. The fact that they can go on the streak they have while Tulo works out of his struggles, should be proof alone that this process is fine. He's made hard contact consistently the last few games. If there's one way to get your best players going, it's putting them in the best position to succeed. And that's infront of the big hitters.


The numbers you speak of are part of a slump that began well before he joined the jays and in the leadoff position. He isn't hurting the club by simply batting leadoff and is due for natural hot streak as his numbers rise back to the mean.

Furthermore insulting well established posters who I enjoy reading like DJQ just because you disagree is rather insulting myself.

The batting order can and should be optimized.

Tulo can work out his struggles without inhibiting run production.

He's in the most sheltered batting position in baseball.

If he can't get it going there, then allow someone who isn't getting dizzy at the plate the chance to score.

 

[Bad News Benning]

at some point either this year or next year I'd love to see this lineup

Pompey
Donny
Jose
EE
Tulo
Cola
Martin
Travis
Revere

 

[sparxx87]

Where Troy Tulowitzki is hitting is not affecting his approach whatsoever. And for you to think that you can judge an individual's comfort level is nonsensical. He was batting third in Colorado prior to being trade to Toronto, and was in an 0-20 slide.

Ben Revere is empty average, low wOBA, and functions best at the bottom of a lineup.

And please don't tell me it's not a knee jerk reaction. I don't even have to look at the box score of today's game to know that Tulowitzki likely didn't get a hit and Revere probably did. And even still, you're using a small sample size and ignoring the track record of one of the best players in baseball; worse off, assuming he's mentally weak enough to let where he is batting in a lineup affect his approach.

People are entitled to be nonsensical, but at least be honest about it.

It's not knee jerk? I've been consistent in saying I don't think he should be there for a month now? I don't think he's mentally weak, but I think a shake up might ignite him.

What are you talking about honest? I honestly think if I was calling the shots I'd switch it up right now. I'm of the opinion that the lineup could and should sometimes be altered based on hot streaks... We may have different philosophies, but nothing I said was nonsensical.

I haven't seen anyone take more good fastballs in recent memory then Tulo. Maybe he just isn't feeling it, I don't know.. I'm still learning the player, just as a lot of us are. But in my opinion, a little more aggressive approach may help him shake his slump, and putting him in the middle of the order might influence that.

 

[BackHandShelf22]

I haven't seen someone say so much without providing an ounce of statistical proof or proper analysis in some time.

 

[Bomber0104]

I haven't seen someone say so much without providing an ounce of statistical proof or proper analysis in some time.

If "proper analysis" leads you to believe Tulo is an acceptable leadoff hitter for the Blue Jays right now, then clearly I'm on the right track.

 

[Woodman19]

Whats more likely, hitting in the #1 spot is causing Tulowitzki to perform average offensively for a small sample size OR that Tulowitzki is getting used to facing guys he would normally see once every other year or so and doesn't have a read on their stuff like he would other NL pitchers?

 

[BackHandShelf22]

Whats more likely, hitting in the #1 spot is causing Tulowitzki to perform average offensively for a small sample size OR that Tulowitzki is getting used to facing guys he would normally see once every other year or so and doesn't have a read on their stuff like he would other NL pitchers?

Maybe he was always picked last as a kid and finds hitting first deeply troubling in a mysterious kind of way.