Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Trust me... nothing has changed.

[Gurglesons]

He was 74th overall in points among centers, and that's largely due to quite a few centers missing games causing them to finish slightly below him. For instance, Zibanejad finished tied with him, but did so in 57 games to Bonino's 80. Couturier finished 3 points back, but in 14 less games.

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In terms of points per game, he's ranked 85th. When you remove guys from the list who aren't centers, but NHL.com lists them anyway, like Guentzel and Cammalleri, he's still roughly in the 80 range.

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I don't know how either qualify him as "right at the cusp of 60" and establishing his production as that of a fringe 2C.

In terms of the PPG, I can very easily come up with at least 15 players that didn't play the majority of their season as a C.

 

[Jenkins]

It helps explain statiscally how a coach views a player. If you're starting in the d-zone 70% of the playoffs chances are that you are being used in mostly defensive situations which would likely impact your point totals.

And yeah it completely discredits neutral zone faceoffs.

Yeah for sure it lessens production a little. How much though? I wouldn't think that much. Probably would have more these past playoffs with Letang out though. He's very important to our transition game.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah for sure it lessens production a little. How much though? I wouldn't think that much. Probably would have more these past playoffs with Letang out though. He's very important to our transition game.

I mean, it is more a stat to see how players are viewed in their usage. Obviously, Bonino and Cullen were our big guns in terms of letting Crosby and Malkin play more favorable match-ups.

If you estimate an average hockey shift around 30 seconds and you're spending 15 of that getting the puck up the ice and then switching for Crosby or Malkin it effects your production. Kind of the opposite of how they used Schultz in 15-16.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

In terms of the PPG, I can very easily come up with at least 15 players that didn't play the majority of their season as a C.

I counted about 12, but even if we go with your number, that means he goes from 85th to 70th ranked among all centers. That's still not "fringe 2C", that's still smack dab in the better producing 3C range.

 

[NMK11]

I mean you are the one who is trying to argue that Bonino wasn't an anchor last year despite all of the facts that support the argument that he was terrible last year.

Again, every single winger who played significant time with Bonino played worse with Bonino than with any other center. That is not a coincidence. Sure, he was given a lot of defensive zone draws which might limit his production. On the other hand, he was playing a lot of that time with the 2nd best goal scoring winger of the last decade which should have increased Bonino's production.

You claimed that this most recent cup was the result of center depth, you were refuted, and now you are mad that people are poking holes in your hyperbole.

Not to argue for or against Bonino, but doesn't it make sense for players to play better away from him when it likely means they are playing with one of our two all world centers? I'm sure there's an outlier there somewhere, but I would be surprised if there's a winger who puts up a better PPG with Bonino or Cullen than with Malkin and Crosby.

Again, not to get into the debate on how good Bonino is, but just something I figured I'd throw out there for debate or for someone to dig up the stats one way or another.

 

[madinsomniac]

to call Bonino an anchor last year is a stretch, at least most of the time. He had a few chunks of really bad play. But he was also quite good a lot of the time.

Yep this... bonino was fine sometime, poor others, and even really good at times... but all in all he was average...maybe a tad above average through the end of the season....

This really wasn't a continuation of the 3 c model in Shero's days... this was a deep team with actual wingers allowing normal 3 c centers to thrive because they didn't have to carry the line...

If anything the C depth came from a 3 c like talent on the 4th line... but we all have to remember what we have at 1c and 2c is far greater than most teams... thats an advantage right there

 

[Gurglesons]

I counted about 12, but even if we go with your number, that means he goes from 85th to 70th ranked among all centers. That's still not "fringe 2C", that's still smack dab in the better producing 3C range.

So, I decided to actually put together some stats and ranked the top three centers based on face offs taken (excluding obvious players that haven't been playing center, but taking faces off) to address this issue. I only did playoff teams, because I don't have the time to do all the teams in the league.

In terms of PPG. Bonino comes in at 36/48.

In terms of actual points he comes in at 36/48.

So, I guess I'm exaggerating when I say he is a fringe 2C. I think his starts obviously have a lot to do with this.

When we organize the list by zone starts he is #13 in terms of zone starts with players like Koivu, Kesler, Hayes, Dubi, and Kadri ahead of him which I would assume you would consider # 2 centers or at least them handling those minutes gives their 3C more chance to be offensive.

In terms of players that are ahead of Bonino in terms of zone starts that I'd put in the class of 3C we have Letestu (34pts/.45PPG), Kruger (17pts/.22PPG) Berglund (34pts/.41PPG).

Behind him but still over 50% in terms of d zone startswe have Vermette (28/.38PPG), Jarnkrok (31/.38PPG), Karlsson (25pts/.30PPG) and Smith (32/.43PPG)

Bonino for reference had 37pts at a .46PPG. So in terms of players that were playing similar "starts" as Bones as a 3C the only two close in terms of points and PPG were Letestu (who put up 13 points on the power play) and Berglund (who I have said is someone I'd like to see the Pens target since Sobotka and Schenn likely make him the odd man out).

Bonino is clearly in terms of production when you consider his minutes one of if not the best producer on the third line in terms of playoff contenders.

Obviously, his line mates and the Pens system play into that, but can we at least admit that you guys are severely underrating his abilities?

In terms of other centers that were above 50% in D zone starts we had Kesler, Koivu, Backlund(who is an absolute beast at 64% and a .65PPG.. maybe we should trade Jake for him ) Kadri, Fisher, Plekanenc, Hayes, Dubi, Statsny, Getzlaf, Danault, Staal, and Nuge.

I guess if you want to consider Koivu (58pts/.73ppg), Kadri (61pts/.74PPG), Fisher (42pts/.58PPG), Nuge (43pts/.52PPG) and Pleks (28pts/.36PPG) as 3Cs (I believe most of them were playing 2nd line type situations judging by the way their teams are set up in the pivot) I've included their numbers. I still think Bonino outside of Kadri and Koivu proves he could hang with those players.

Finally, in terms of zone starts and centers Malkin is the lowest in D zone starts and Crosby is 42nd out of 48.

Pretty obvious that is going to change this year and we will likely see it reflect in their point totals.

 

[Tender Rip]

About Bonino stats....

When it comes to scoring, it matters that he was on the team scoring more goals than any other. You can say he had second line C numbers, but that really doesn't say anything.
You can say that he had a massive percentage of D-zone draws and you could infer that this means he is great defensively... but while he is a good defensive player, a bigger reason is that we simply prefer to give Sid and especially Geno as many starts in the offensive zone as we can.
A high D-zone percentage does not in itself say anything about competence, only utilization. When you do look deeper into the numbers, it doesn't help Bonino's case that his line had a hard time possessing the puck for the majority and got hemmed in more than any of our other C's.

When in all likelihood we see a competent 3C addition some time over the next two months, I truly wonder how Pixies (especially but others too) will think on the gazillion posts made decrying our C-situation.

Worst comes to worst, we've lost a few additional games in the opening stanzas of the season and seen a few youngsters play a few more games than they would otherwise have done, which will most likely be more than offset by having gotten in a player who fits cap-structure and quality wise.

With the backdrop that I alluded to many pages ago, that would be the most likely outcome.

In any case, I will never bee ******** on Bones memory here. He was good. Just not to the extent that I can complain we didn't give him 4x4 at a time where we had bigger fish to fry in RFA and considering it likely that Cullen would re-sign.

Outside of having issues with the price we paid for Reaves (that I can understand even if I like the addition), I really don't see a thing that JR can be criticized for considering the challenges of the ED and the very limited options have been there at C.

 

[Peat]

If you go to NHL and ask for players taking 300 or more face-offs, Bonino comes 69th in points scored. Unfortunately you can't do that and look at PPG at the same time but Couturier is the only guy who springs to eye who would be above. There's still a few guys there we wouldn't really call centres.

It would be nice to look at everyone and break it down to see which 3Cs got more 2C games and how much that bumped production - Pageau got 5 games with one of Turris and Brassard missing, Bonino got 27 of Crosby and Malking missing f'instance - but, in general, Bonino being somewhere in top 10 of producers at 3C sounds about right.

Although I'd point out any pot shots at Letestu (or others) racking up PP points should note Bonino got 11 there himself. Bonino's joint 86th with a bunch of other guys who all played less games than him when it comes to ES for the NHL's list of Cs.

 

[ColePens]

I'll give pixie credit. He's taken punch after punch after punch. About 10 times i thought he was knocked out. He comes in, respectfully throws his opinion out there, and when you think he's dead - he rises up for more. Kid's got alligator blood. And that at least keeps this thread exciting.

But we are about 2 weeks away from camp. Let's go

 

[Shady Machine]

Except there's nothing to support that. What we're trying to do is deploy the best fighter in the league to minimize targeted attempts to injure our superstars. Where exactly is the counter-evidence?

And the point I'm making about turning the other cheek is that while it's great to keep calm and carry on, it doesn't amount to much if your franchise player ends up on the shelf with a concussion, which we came dangerously close to seeing last year from exactly the kind of attack Reaves was brought in to curb.

So now the rest of our team can turn their cheek while Reaves caves in the perpetrator's.

Where's the counter evidence to your non evidence? Weird question

 

[canadianguy77]

When the season starts and we all move on from these talking points, this summer will be forever known as "The Summer of Nick Bonino."

Yeah...if this is our biggest complaint, our team has come a long, long way from only a few shorts years ago.

I'd easily take this any day over the collective angst and hopelessness of when Shero and Danny-Boy were in their heyday.

 

[Shady Machine]

I'd love to see a poll of who posters want as our 3C. I'm still struggling to understand what the expectations are for the "trust JR and be patient" crowd.

 

[Gurglesons]

When the season starts and we all move on from these talking points, this summer will be forever known as "The Summer of Nick Bonino."

Yeah...if this is our biggest complaint, our team has come a long, long way from only a few shorts years ago.

I'd easily take this any day over the collective angst and hopelessness of when Shero and Danny-Boy were in their heyday.

I knew HBK was an obvious flash in the pan. I wonder if that's why people are so tough on Bones because he basically brings everything I want from a 3C.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'd love to see a poll of who posters want as our 3C. I'm still struggling to understand what the expectations are for the "trust JR and be patient" crowd.

I either want someone better than bonino, or I want someone competent in a similar defensive role for less money than bonino now makes. We don't need a superstar, but we need to avoid getting ourselves a bad contract. Though I won't be surprised if JR is trying for the home run with Duchene. But I won't be surprised with someone like Karlsson either.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'd love to see a poll of who posters want as our 3C. I'm still struggling to understand what the expectations are for the "trust JR and be patient" crowd.

That's a hard question to answer because none of us know which centers might be available. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest JR probably has a better idea who is and who isn't on the market than any of us do, so there's where the "trust JR" thing comes from. From everything he's said in the press, he has an idea who he is targeting and also has an idea who is available as "fallback" options if his priorities don't get done.

 

[ColePens]

I'd love to see a poll of who posters want as our 3C. I'm still struggling to understand what the expectations are for the "trust JR and be patient" crowd.

How can you not understand the expectations for the trust JR and be patient crowd? We've said names all summer long. The expectations aren't Duchene. The expectations are ranging from W Karlsson, a partially retained Eakin, strike gold with a Dallas C? See what's up in Detroit?

JR said he could make a trade right now but he's waiting for certain players. When has JR lied?

 

[ColePens]

I also think once the season starts, a lot of things change with who is available. JR could have his eye on players we aren't even talking about. How many people said "Scuds for Daley... make it happen." How many people said Hags as a potential partner.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I also think once the season starts, a lot of things change with who is available. JR could have his eye on players we aren't even talking about. How many people said "Scuds for Daley... make it happen." How many people said Hags as a potential partner.

Cole, both those trades happened in the summer time. No chance in hell JR's able to pull off those kinds of deals once the season begins.

 

[canadianguy77]

I'd love to see a poll of who posters want as our 3C. I'm still struggling to understand what the expectations are for the "trust JR and be patient" crowd.

For me personally, I don't expect another cup during the Sid/Geno era. It would be cool if they manged to eek another one out, but I definitely don't expect it.

I'm thinking that for the next 3-5 years, we'll ice competitive teams who are capable of making deep runs, but a lot of it, like every year, is fraught with a crazy amount of luck that could go either way..

After that, we're probably back to rebuilding, and the long process starts all over like it has for the 30 plus years that I've been a fan.

We're not a Nick Bonino away from another final appearance this year. And throwing away the next 3-5 years of being competitive and maybe having a shot at another final for Nick Bonino doesn't make sense to me.

In my mind, we could bring in Matt Duchene for futures and we probably still won't win this year.

Attrition is real and so are the attitudes of multi-millionaire athletes who start to care a little bit less after they've already accomplished something historic.

That's just my take though.

 

[Shady Machine]

How can you not understand the expectations for the trust JR and be patient crowd? We've said names all summer long. The expectations aren't Duchene. The expectations are ranging from W Karlsson, a partially retained Eakin, strike gold with a Dallas C? See what's up in Detroit?

JR said he could make a trade right now but he's waiting for certain players. When has JR lied?

Are those really the expectations? Man I hope JR is aiming higher or Bones was a better option.

I appreciate the names though. I was expecting the Sidney answer of "JR knows the names" which is true but not specific. I was just curious to see what the expectations really were since the vast majority of posters are happy JR moved on from Bones. Aside from W Karlsson, the other names thrown around are definitely worse than Bones. I like potential upsid with Karlsson although I'd say today he's worse than Bones

 

[Tender Rip]

I'd love to see a poll of who posters want as our 3C. I'm still struggling to understand what the expectations are for the "trust JR and be patient" crowd.

There's a couple of not too unlikely Swedish Vegas options that could likely be done with futures and/or fringe winger now or soon enough. That would suffice at least until the deadline where we will know more about Rowney and potentially some of the young WBS options.

It could also be a somewhat bigger trade - a'la Hagelin/Bjugstad as a base (depending on how those guys start the season, how Florida see Bjugstad going forward, if one of our prospects look set to make Hagelin sort of redundant etc.).

Or it could be us paying more (current established player - winger - plus futures) to get someone more fancy.

Its hard to say what opens up. Just like it is extremely hard for anyone to say who we could have gotten now and at what price outside of saying that Bonino likely would have taken a similar offer from the Pens (despite it being worth less after tax).

It will also depend on player performances in the early days of the season on our team and those teams we target for a deal.

What isn't hard to say is that our roster outside of bottom 6 C's is rock star caliber and we have winger assets out the wazoo that makes it possible to trade from among the starters if needed. That's a very decent position to be in if you're waiting on a good trade opportunity.

 

[madinsomniac]

I knew HBK was an obvious flash in the pan. I wonder if that's why people are so tough on Bones because he basically brings everything I want from a 3C.

Our cap space makes what he got illogical for us based in what he brought to the table... he was great at shotblocking here, but he wasn't as good at it before coming here, and he wasnt really known as a lights out faceoff guy... his points kind of hovered where he always was ...

If we are going to commit 4 mil plus i want either a true #2 type or a guy with upside to get there... if not ill take two #3 types either from within or elsewhere at reduced cap hits... which, barring injuries or overpayment for retention , we have to wait till December or January to get that kind of space

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Are those really the expectations? Man I hope JR is aiming higher or Bones was a better option.

I appreciate the names though. I was expecting the Sidney answer of "JR knows the names" which is true but not specific. I was just curious to see what the expectations really were since the vast majority of posters are happy JR moved on from Bones. Aside from W Karlsson, the other names thrown around are definitely worse than Bones. I like potential upsid with Karlsson although I'd say today he's worse than Bones

The bolded isn't really an accurate description of the situation. For me, it's not about being "happy JR moved on from Bonino", as if I absolutely loathed the player and couldn't wait until he was gone. It's about me being fine with JR not paying that price to keep Bonino since I think there are options out there that are either cheaper or that will cost more but have higher upside.

In other words, if he'd kept Bonino at a lesser price, I'd be fine with it. And if he moved on from Bonino, I'm not going to complain about it either. I simply don't think Nick Bonino is a player who makes or breaks a roster to the point where I'd complain endlessly if he left.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Are those really the expectations? Man I hope JR is aiming higher or Bones was a better option.

I appreciate the names though. I was expecting the Sidney answer of "JR knows the names" which is true but not specific. I was just curious to see what the expectations really were since the vast majority of posters are happy JR moved on from Bones. Aside from W Karlsson, the other names thrown around are definitely worse than Bones. I like potential upsid with Karlsson although I'd say today he's worse than Bones

But you can't just ignore salary. It's not just them vs Bones. It's them + whatever else we do with the cap space vs Bones. I like Bonino too. At 2 mil, he was a very good 3C to have. But not at 4.1x4, imo. Avoiding those kinds of contracts is how a team stays competitive. Is it a terrible deal? No. But it's more than he's worth, and we need as few guys making more than they are worth as possible.