Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Trust me... nothing has changed.

[ColePens]

Just trade Wilson and a 3rd for Girgensons so I don't have to read the bickering in this thread anymore

I'll start bickering that they traded Wilson.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'll start bickering that they traded Wilson.

I'd rather not trade Wilson, but that trade makes a lot of sense from both sides. It's probably the easiest trade the Penguins could make imo.

 

[Jenkins]

I'd rather not trade Wilson, but that trade makes a lot of sense from both sides. It's probably the easiest trade the Penguins could make imo.

Picks to Vegas seems like an easy plan too. If we are over our roster and think we'd lose players to waivers we could make some deals for waiver exempt players as well.

 

[Jenkins]

Words can not describe how much I think trading Maatta is an awful idea. It's just a flat out bad idea unless the Penguins are getting back a defenseman for him. The issue is peiole are suggesting trasing him for a guy who's going to leave as a free agent in 2 years.

I seriously don't know why so many people won't trade Sprong, yet they constantly advocated trading Maatta.

Everyone's tradeable but these two need overpayments.

It has to make our team better. I don't see a realistic scenario where we get better trading Maatta (a quality top 4D with upside).

With Sprong he's a guy who could give us cap relief while being a quality winger, like Guentzel, Sheary and Rust have been. Those type of contracts are probably more important going forward.

As I said everyone is tradable for the right deal though if it makes us a better team now (with keeping an eye on the future).

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

That's a solid list thanks. I don't think any of the good players on that list are reasonably available though. Dallas has zero needs on paper that we could offer them.

Karlsson or Lindberg could likely be had for overpayments and Eakin without retention (I'd gladly take Bones over him though). Not sure about availability of the others and I'm not mentioning the ugh guy because I don't want it to come true.

I'd gladly take Bones over a full-price Eakin - not signing Bonino would be a clear mistake in that case because we'd be giving up assets, the cap space and term savings are negligible, and we'd be downgrading.

Karlsson or Lindberg seem like the best choices if we can't swing for the fences with a Duchene or Bozak because they're cheap, responsible, have room to grow offensively and probably wouldn't cost an arm and a leg. Given Vegas' abundance of centers and desire for picks, they're probably pretty high on JR's list of fallbacks too.

 

[Riptide]

Didn't the Finals illustrate what happens when you have a really bad third pairing?

Not just this year, but last year as well. San Jose's bottom pairing got feasted on badly by the Pens.

The flip side of that, is you need the skill up front - specifically your 3rd line to take advantage of that. Even with Nashville's brutal 3rd pairing, we struggled to take advantage due to the fact that our bottom 6 forwards weren't producing like they did the previous year.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Picks to Vegas seems like an easy plan too. If we are over our roster and think we'd lose players to waivers we could make some deals for waiver exempt players as well.

I'm not sure if it would be as easy as Wilson for Girgensons would be. I think a decent amount of teams would give up picks and prospects for Karlsson or Lindberg. How many teams would be willing to give up a Wilson caliber forward for a guy like Girgensons? Most teams don't have a spare young forward that is on caliber with Wilson. Then there is also the Botterill connection and Buffalo being weak on LW, I think that deal would be more doable.

 

[Jenkins]

The flip side of that, is you need the skill up front - specifically your 3rd line to take advantage of that. Even with Nashville's brutal 3rd pairing, we struggled to take advantage due to the fact that our bottom 6 forwards weren't producing like they did the previous year.

There could be other factors for that to though. I'd say injuries were a bigger reason why. Obviously Letang is a huge part of our transition game but we had Hornqvist and Hagelin injured too while not our top wingers still important to the 3 line scoring model. Nashville knew their bottom pair wasn't great which is why they played under 10 minutes. With those minutes especially at home they could be quite sheltered.

 

[Riptide]

The difference is we have a bunch of young wing options that can graduate during the season and very little at center. The only actual center prospect we have is Blueger. People say Simon but he's played nearly exclusively on the wing. Same with the others people keep mentioning.

Wasn't he playing C in WBS last season? I never watch them, but one of the prospect articles that LastWordArmy wrote said something about that. Not that I think he's the answer.

 

[Jenkins]

I'm not sure if it would be as easy as Wilson for Girgensons would be. I think a decent amount of teams would give up picks and prospects for Karlsson or Lindberg. How many teams would be willing to give up a Wilson caliber forward for a guy like Girgensons? Most teams don't have a spare young forward that is on caliber with Wilson. Then there is also the Botterill connection and Buffalo being weak on LW, I think that deal would be more doable.

Yeah that is true. What is Girgenson like? I know very little about him. I can look up stats but that doesn't tell you too much without seeing him play and how well he'd fit here.

 

[Peat]

The flip side of that, is you need the skill up front - specifically your 3rd line to take advantage of that. Even with Nashville's brutal 3rd pairing, we struggled to take advantage due to the fact that our bottom 6 forwards weren't producing like they did the previous year.

And iirc the main way we did take advantage was by double shifting Sid.

 

[Jenkins]

And iirc the main way we did take advantage was by double shifting Sid.

I thought we did that mainly against Ottawa when Kunitz and Sheary went to the 4th line. I don't remember him being double shifted against the Preds.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah that is true. What is Girgenson like? I know very little about him. I can look up stats but that doesn't tell you too much without seeing him play and how well he'd fit here.

He's a gritty, more defensive 2-way center that was ruined in the last 2 years by dumb usage by Bylsma. I think he'd be better than Bonino defensively by a pretty fair margin, but there would be an offensive drop off. I'd say if he'd mesh with Kessel, maybe 10 goals and 30 points over an 82 game season? I have doubts that he'd hit that here though, I don't think his 2014-2015 production is at all reflective of what he can do in a 3C role. He's never been particularly good offensively, he has below a 1.0 ES points/60 in the last 2 years and that's not all due to Bylsma. His best year was when he was playing 19 minutes a night, and put up below a 1.5 ES points/60 in that season.

If you want a 3C who can play absurdly hard defensive minutes and pitch in an okay amount of points, Girgensons is probably a good match. I don't know if he and Kessel would make a good duo, though. If the Penguins brought in Girgensons, I'd probably want him to play with Hagelin and Hornqvist in heavy defensive minutes all year and I'd expect him to put up like 25 points.

 

[Jenkins]

He's a gritty, more defensive 2-way center that was ruined in the last 2 years by dumb usage by Bylsma. I think he'd be better than Bonino defensively by a pretty fair margin, but there would be an offensive drop off. I'd say if he'd mesh with Kessel, maybe 10 goals and 30 points over an 82 game season? I have doubts that he'd hit that here though, I don't think his 2014-2015 production is at all reflective of what he can do in a 3C role. He's never been particularly good offensively, he has below a 1.0 ES points/60 in the last 2 years and that's not all due to Bylsma. His best year was when he was playing 19 minutes a night, and put up below a 1.5 ES points/60 in that season.

If you want a 3C who can play absurdly hard defensive minutes and pitch in an okay amount of points, Girgensons is probably a good match. I don't know if he and Kessel would make a good duo, though. If the Penguins brought in Girgensons, I'd probably want him to play with Hagelin and Hornqvist in heavy defensive minutes all year and I'd expect him to put up like 25 points.

Thanks mate. Yeah we don't need to replicate what Bonino did exactly and our wingers are very interchangeable to get the right fit.

 

[Shady Machine]

Girgensons is an adequate defensive replacement for Bones or Cullen but is a question mark on the offense. Is he the 30 point rookie that made the NHL earlier than expected or the player we've seen the past two years? I can buy that Bylsma screwed him but if Botts sees him as the rookie version, I'm not sure why he'd trade him for Wilson before giving him a chance to rebound.

As with any of these younger reclamation or question mark guys, I still think we need a better 4C than Rowney or McClement but I'm okay waiting till the deadline for that if we get one of these guys in soon

 

[Empoleon8771]

Girgensons is an adequate defensive replacement for Bones or Cullen but is a question mark on the offense. Is he the 30 point rookie that made the NHL earlier than expected or the player we've seen the past two years? I can buy that Bylsma screwed him but if Botts sees him as the rookie version, I'm not sure why he'd trade him for Wilson before giving him a chance to rebound.

As with any of these younger reclamation or question mark guys, I still think we need a better 4C than Rowney or McClement but I'm okay waiting till the deadline for that if we get one of these guys in soon

Because Botterill is very familiar with Wilson, they need LWers desperately and they have an abundance of centers. I'm not sure how much value Girgensons would offer from a wing position, his best attribute would be minimized and his mediocre offense game would become more exposed in that position.

If the Penguins brought in Girgensons, I'd still want JR to bring in another center by the deadline, but I think the Penguins would be fine until the deadline. Ideally, I'd rather have Girgensons on the 4th line due to how many offensively talented wingers the Penguins will have in their top-9, and I'm not sure those guys would fit well with Girgensons.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Girgensons isn't very good on draws. That's one area I'd like for the 3C to be strong at, as that'll be key in defensive zone situations and on the PK. He's young, though, and his faceoff percentages have been trending upwards. So maybe he can turn into a 50+% guy in Pittsburgh.

Girgensons' offense is certainly noticeably affected by the idiot factor (Bylsma). 52 points in 131 games prior to Bylsma (33 point pace) versus 34 points in 146 games with Bylsma as coach (19 point pace). If he could return to pre-Bylsma, that kind of production would replace Bonino's offense.

 

[billybudd]

Yeah that is true. What is Girgenson like? I know very little about him. I can look up stats but that doesn't tell you too much without seeing him play and how well he'd fit here.

Looked like a pretty good player with some size until DB got there and his game went straight to Hell. Might be causal, might be coincidental.

 

[ColePens]

I'll go with JR's thoughts, according to to ColePens.

The dream scenario that won't happen, but we are actively in the discussion:

- Duchene: There is no more perfect player for this team. Faceoffs, versatility, etc. You name it. But that price is way too damn high.

The next level guys who might be available once the season kicks off for the right price, and it won't be cheap:

- Bozak, A Dallas center, Henrique, Haula: Really interested to see how that Dallas situation plays out into the season. Someone might be available.

The guys we've talked about all year who are probably able to be had right this second:

- Karlsson, Eakin, Someone from Detroit, someone from Buffalo, etc.


I do think JR is waiting for someone from the top 2 lists to become available. I think he knows they fit our needs the most.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Girgensons isn't very good on draws. That's one area I'd like for the 3C to be strong at, as that'll be key in defensive zone situations and on the PK. He's young, though, and his faceoff percentages have been trending upwards. So maybe he can turn into a 50+% guy in Pittsburgh.

Girgensons' offense is certainly noticeably affected by the idiot factor (Bylsma). 52 points in 131 games prior to Bylsma (33 point pace) versus 34 points in 146 games with Bylsma as coach (19 point pace). If he could return to pre-Bylsma, that kind of production would replace Bonino's offense.

The issue is that he had to play 19 minutes a game for an entire season to get that level of production, which isn't even that special in the first place. Girgensons had a 1.33 ES points/60 in 2013-2014 and a 1.49 ES points/60 in 2014-2015, which isn't even that good anyway. For comparison, Bonino in 2015-2016 was at 2.08 ES points/60 when he was MIA for the first 50 games of that season and was at 1.49 ES points/60 last season (he wasn't good at all at ES last year, but he still matched Girgensons' best).

If Girgensons matched his career best in ES points/60, he would match what Bonino did at ES last year (which was not good, I should reiterate), assuming you gave Girgensons the same minutes and zone starts that Bonino got. Take Bonino's production, take out his PP production and I think you'd have what Girgensons would do as a 3C here most likely: around 12 goals and 25 points. Oddly enough, that's almost exactly the same as what Sutter produced in 2013-2014. I don't think that's awful production, especially when he would be playing super heavy defensive minutes, but that's not exactly good 3C production. Maybe he could do more by playing more offensive wingers with him (maybe getting Kessel more defensive zone starts would actually help improve his production, because it allows him to streak down the ice and use his speed and shot), but I'm not sure if you want to put guys like Sheary or Guentzel in heavy defensive minutes

 

[Empoleon8771]

Actually, I just looked into it and I think playing Kessel with Girgensons with heavy defensive zone starts would actually work pretty well. Kessel's peak offensive seasons were in 2012-2013, both seasons he had more defensive zone starts than offensive zone starts. Phil Kessel had 60 ES points (29 goals and 31 assists) in 2013-2014 while getting 55.6% defensive zone starts. He's proven that he doesn't need an all star playmaker to be effective, so maybe that might actually work. I question putting him up against the top lines of other teams, but it looks like him starting more in the defensive zone fits his game better.

In 2013-2014, Kessel was on the ice for 424 offensive zone faceoffs, 523 defensive zone faceoffs and 474 neutral zone faceoffs, just to put a further emphasis on how many defensive zone starts he had. He's started way too much in the offensive zone in Pittsburgh, it takes away from what is most effective in his game, his ability to score on the rush. That's probably why he's shooting less and shifting more into a playmaker, he's not being used in the appropriate way to utilize his goal scoring ability.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'll go with JR's thoughts, according to to ColePens.

The dream scenario that won't happen, but we are actively in the discussion:

- Duchene: There is no more perfect player for this team. Faceoffs, versatility, etc. You name it. But that price is way too damn high.

The next level guys who might be available once the season kicks off for the right price, and it won't be cheap:

- Bozak, A Dallas center, Henrique, Haula: Really interested to see how that Dallas situation plays out into the season. Someone might be available.

The guys we've talked about all year who are probably able to be had right this second:

- Karlsson, Eakin, Someone from Detroit, someone from Buffalo, etc.


I do think JR is waiting for someone from the top 2 lists to become available. I think he knows they fit our needs the most.

Bozak, Dallas, and Henrique are likely going to cost major pieces that we can't give up. Leafs will likely want Maatta or Cole + roster player. Shero is insanely good at trading so I really don't even want to know what he could get for Henrique. Not to mention both of these players are temporary fixes. You are essentially giving up major pieces for a one year run and I don't think Bozak especially is worth that. I don't see why Dallas would have a center down the middle open. They can run Seguin, Spezza, Faska, Shore and still have the ability to move people.

I think we are looking at the bottom selection and the issue is that you are either replacing Bonino's defensive prowess and taking a hit offensively, or you are forcing Crosby to take more defensive draws and bringing in a more offensive oriented 3C. The doesn't even touch on replacing Cullen's offense. Karlsson is obviously the best choice, because if he proves he doesn't pan out you can just move him down to 4C at the deadline.

The other issue is as soon as Duchene moves teams like Montreal, Carolina, Nashville, etc. are all going to be after the same type of centers as we are which is going to increase the price. I'd say that has a lot more to do with the stand still than Rutherford being able to just go out and get a center.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'll go with JR's thoughts, according to to ColePens.

The dream scenario that won't happen, but we are actively in the discussion:

- Duchene: There is no more perfect player for this team. Faceoffs, versatility, etc. You name it. But that price is way too damn high.

The next level guys who might be available once the season kicks off for the right price, and it won't be cheap:

- Bozak, A Dallas center, Henrique, Haula: Really interested to see how that Dallas situation plays out into the season. Someone might be available.

The guys we've talked about all year who are probably able to be had right this second:

- Karlsson, Eakin, Someone from Detroit, someone from Buffalo, etc.


I do think JR is waiting for someone from the top 2 lists to become available. I think he knows they fit our needs the most.

This is exactly where I'm at.

As an aside, Girgensons seems like one of the more underwhelming options for us. DB or no, young or not, the guy hasn't hit 20 points in either of the last 2 years. I don't want to be counting on a guy who got outscored by Marcus Foligno the last 2 seasons to center our 3rd line.

 

[Gurglesons]

Actually, I just looked into it and I think playing Kessel with Girgensons with heavy defensive zone starts would actually work pretty well. Kessel's peak offensive seasons were in 2012-2013, both seasons he had more defensive zone starts than offensive zone starts. Phil Kessel had 60 ES points (29 goals and 31 assists) in 2013-2014 while getting 55.6% defensive zone starts. He's proven that he doesn't need an all star playmaker to be effective, so maybe that might actually work. I question putting him up against the top lines of other teams, but it looks like him starting more in the defensive zone fits his game better.

In 2013-2014, Kessel was on the ice for 424 offensive zone faceoffs, 523 defensive zone faceoffs and 474 neutral zone faceoffs, just to put a further emphasis on how many defensive zone starts he had. He's started way too much in the offensive zone in Pittsburgh, it takes away from what is most effective in his game, his ability to score on the rush. That's probably why he's shooting less and shifting more into a playmaker, he's not being used in the appropriate way to utilize his goal scoring ability.

I would say a lot of this is based on Kessel actually having offensive players to play with versus JVR.

Also, I think this is ignoring one of the key impacts of Sullivan coming in versus Bylsma and Johnston. For some reason Johnston and Bylsma wanted to play them against "the best competition". When you have a team like ours stacked with offensive stars you make their starts force the other team to work around them. It tilts the game and allows Crosby, Malkin and Kessel to take advantage of their situations. That is why I believe it is pretty imperative for them to bring in a 3C that can handle heavy D minutes.

 

[ColePens]

I wonder if one of the ex-Pens team, NJ/Buffalo/etc, would maybe take a risk on DP, who will hit waivers if moves down for the Pens in exchange for a young guy like Girgs. Seems like a project for project deal.