Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Trust me... nothing has changed.

[ColePens]

Are those really the expectations? Man I hope JR is aiming higher or Bones was a better option.

I appreciate the names though. I was expecting the Sidney answer of "JR knows the names" which is true but not specific. I was just curious to see what the expectations really were since the vast majority of posters are happy JR moved on from Bones. Aside from W Karlsson, the other names thrown around are definitely worse than Bones. I like potential upsid with Karlsson although I'd say today he's worse than Bones

That's not how this works. We can't afford 4M at the 3C spot unless it's a lot less term. Down the road we have Guentzel and others who need contracts. If it's 4M for 2 years.. MAYBE. But term has to be less.

We can't just give big money to our 3Cs. JR says he's hunting the right guys who fit our team. If he finds the right guy, that player is going to fit well. I trust him. He's got this down to what our identity is now.

 

[ColePens]

Are those really the expectations? Man I hope JR is aiming higher or Bones was a better option.

I appreciate the names though. I was expecting the Sidney answer of "JR knows the names" which is true but not specific. I was just curious to see what the expectations really were since the vast majority of posters are happy JR moved on from Bones. Aside from W Karlsson, the other names thrown around are definitely worse than Bones. I like potential upsid with Karlsson although I'd say today he's worse than Bones

I need to start calling ******** on this. We are going to miss Bones. We are going to miss Fleury. Eventually we are going to miss Ian Cole. We are eventually going to miss Sheary. We are going to miss Hags.

It's a salary cap world. We can't be the team giving 4.1m to Bones for 4 years. But we are for sure going to miss what he brought to the team. IMO this is the most classic example of Cup champion retooling based on salary cap.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I need to start calling ******** on this. We are going to miss Bones. We are going to miss Fleury. Eventually we are going to miss Ian Cole. We are eventually going to miss Sheary. We are going to miss Hags.

It's a salary cap world. We can't be the team giving 4.1m to Bones for 4 years. But we are for sure going to miss what he brought to the team. IMO this is the most classic example of Cup champion retooling based on salary cap.

well said. I wish we could keep him. But at that cost, we couldn't afford it. Not without causing bigger problems somewhere else.

 

[Peat]

My expectation goes either we get a fairly average defensive minded 3C on a cap hit of no more than 2m who's good for 20-25 ES points and not much going in the other way (Karlsson, Lindberg, betting on a Sheahan recovery; Faksa if we're super lucky and Dallas go mad). Power play prowess optional. This is basically a straight Bonino replacement minus the Power Play and the proven ability to step up and let rip on a 2nd line. Bonus points if they're a better defensive player than Bonino.

Or

We splurge a little and get the impact option who'll put up 40+ points on the 3rd line, might not be so defensively secure but will allow us to revisit a 3 scoring line model. Duchene is the highly unlikely dream, people will keep muttering Bozak's name, I think this is where Bjugstad fits in if we want to be realistic... or Spooner if we really do not care whether they can defend. In this scenario the 4th line will probably do 80% defensive starts and we should forget about them producing.


And yes, HBK is part of why I felt Bonino frequently played within himself for us. Although see also: His numbers for the two seasons before joining us, his numbers down the straight this year. The version of Bonino that consistently hit his high notes is a 2C.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Are zone starts as important as they are made out to be?

I assume they don't take into it neutral zone starts right?

If that assumption is correct Bonino took 15 faceoffs per game (average). Let's say 5 are neutral and using Pixies stats we get:

3 o zone starts
5 neutral starts
7 d zone starts

Is that really a big deal since it's only a starting spot? Win the he faceoff and we are going forward most of the time.

I don't see why that's a huge deal unless someone can explain to me why.

I'm not terribly concerned with it tbh, outside of the fact that I'd rather have Sid and Geno with more o-zone starts. But for people who are concerned with it, it'd be nice if they thought it was relevant across the board, rather than only the ones who suit their ends.

Where's the counter evidence to your non evidence? Weird question

I'm not claiming there's evidence. I'm claiming that it's worth trying to find out.

Are those really the expectations? Man I hope JR is aiming higher or Bones was a better option.

I appreciate the names though. I was expecting the Sidney answer of "JR knows the names" which is true but not specific. I was just curious to see what the expectations really were since the vast majority of posters are happy JR moved on from Bones. Aside from W Karlsson, the other names thrown around are definitely worse than Bones. I like potential upsid with Karlsson although I'd say today he's worse than Bones

Karlsson's also 1/4 the price, which would allow us to add someone else if he wasn't up to the task.

Plenty of other names have been mentioned too, besides Duchene. Bozak, Haula, Bjugstad, Eakin, Lindberg, Sheahan (ugh), Faksa, Shore, and Girgensons to name a few.

I'll give pixie credit. He's taken punch after punch after punch. About 10 times i thought he was knocked out. He comes in, respectfully throws his opinion out there, and when you think he's dead - he rises up for more. Kid's got alligator blood. And that at least keeps this thread exciting.

I don't think that calling those who show inconsistencies in your arguments trolls and carrying on with those inconsistencies regardless is praiseworthy, but to each his own.

 

[Gurglesons]

Our cap space makes what he got illogical for us based in what he brought to the table... he was great at shotblocking here, but he wasn't as good at it before coming here, and he wasnt really known as a lights out faceoff guy... his points kind of hovered where he always was ...

If we are going to commit 4 mil plus i want either a true #2 type or a guy with upside to get there... if not ill take two #3 types either from within or elsewhere at reduced cap hits... which, barring injuries or overpayment for retention , we have to wait till December or January to get that kind of space

That shot blocking point isn't actually true. Stat Shot did a whole chapter analytically breaking down the best shot blocker from 12-13 to 14-15 and Bones was considered one of the best forwards in the league.

Real interesting read honestly.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm not terribly concerned with it tbh, outside of the fact that I'd rather have Sid and Geno with more o-zone starts. But for people who are concerned with it, it'd be nice if they thought it was relevant across the board, rather than only the ones who suit their ends.



I'm not claiming there's evidence. I'm claiming that it's worth trying to find out.



Karlsson's also 1/4 the price, which would allow us to add someone else if he wasn't up to the task.

Plenty of other names have been mentioned too, besides Duchene. Bozak, Haula, Bjugstad, Eakin, Lindberg, Sheahan (ugh), Faksa, Shore, and Girgensons to name a few.



I don't think that calling those who show inconsistencies in your arguments trolls and carrying on with those inconsistencies regardless is praiseworthy, but to each his own.

Dude. Bennett's numbers aren't that great. I've acknowledged how I'm biased about him. Move along.

Also, you literally are trolling me in every post. I notice how you had no comment to my actual points yet again except to throw useless digs out and turn an argument about Bonino into a crucifixion of Bennett.

 

[Tender Rip]

Dude. Bennett's numbers aren't that great. I've acknowledged how I'm biased about him.

In the interest of fairness, this just to say that I also really like Bennett. I think he will become a very good player - and soon.
Mentioning Guentzel as a potential counterpart entirely kills the appeal though, and I very much doubt Calgary would be interested in selling low on him. I dont see him as a realistic target at all.

 

[Gurglesons]

In the interest of fairness, this just to say that I also really like Bennett. I think he will become a very good player - and soon.
Mentioning Guentzel as a potential counterpart entirely kills the appeal though, and I very much doubt Calgary would be interested in selling low on him. I dont see him as a realistic target at all.

The only reason I would do is because I think Bennett is going to be an absolute force. His game also reminds me of O'Reilly before he broke out in 11-12.

Trading Guentzel for him is admittedly really stupid. But like, I love Bennett. Kind of like how I felt about Kovalev when I was a kid.

 

[mpp9]

I would also appreciate not getting immediate troll posts whenever Maatta's name is brought up in a trade. Dudes obviously been shopped. Deal with it.

 

[SCPens]

Are those really the expectations? Man I hope JR is aiming higher or Bones was a better option.

I appreciate the names though. I was expecting the Sidney answer of "JR knows the names" which is true but not specific. I was just curious to see what the expectations really were since the vast majority of posters are happy JR moved on from Bones. Aside from W Karlsson, the other names thrown around are definitely worse than Bones. I like potential upsid with Karlsson although I'd say today he's worse than Bones

But again, we don't know what JR knows. Patience will set you free....

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Dude. Bennett's numbers aren't that great. I've acknowledged how I'm biased about him. Move along.

Also, you literally are trolling me in every post. I notice how you had no comment to my actual points yet again except to throw useless digs out and turn an argument about Bonino into a crucifixion of Bennett.

The problem is that you're roasting the GM for not acquiring a 3C yet when your own proposals don't display consistency.

You said that all you want is a 4C who can step in for Rowney like McClement, and then when we get him you keep complaining about our center situation. Why bother making that statement in the first place if you didn't mean it?

You said that our next 2 years are so important that we should sign Bonino and screw the cap and term consequences because center is such a key position and he brings so much in terms of production and d-zone starts, but earlier you advocated trading Guentzel and a 1st for a kid who's almost exclusively played wing at the NHL level, had 56% o-zone starts, and scored 26 points last year.

When the things someone says matter the most only seem to matter when it's convenient, it makes it tough to take anything they say seriously. Particularly when they're being very vocal critics of the first GM to engineer back-to-back Cups in nearly 2 decades.

 

[Tender Rip]

I would also appreciate not getting immediate troll posts whenever Maatta's name is brought up in a trade. Dudes obviously been shopped. Deal with it.

Any actual documentation for that outside what you can infer from Pittsburgh "journalist" group think?

Beyond that.... most any Maatta trade scenario that you and others come up with merits scorn irrespective of them being considered by management or not .

 

[mpp9]

Any actual documentation for that outside what you can infer from Pittsburgh "journalist" group think?

Beyond that.... most any Maatta trade scenario that you and others come up with merits scorn irrespective of them being considered by management or not .

All the main TSN guys linked us with the Avs. Sakic wants a young D-man. Maatta's name was out there at the deadline. If you can't draw a conclusion from that, fair enough.

I don't think Maatta is particularly hard to replace. He makes 4 mil to be an inconsistent mostly defensive D-man. You can find that in free agency or at the trade deadline. Outside of Dumoulin, Letang and Schultz, they can change the entire blue line for all I care.

People don't want to give him up because he's stepped his game up in the Finals and he could get back to being a more offensive presence. But that's why a GM rebuilding would see value in him. How long does that take? Rebuilding teams can be patient with him, we should be about the next few years and getting the most out of 87/71. If Maatta is a casualty to make the team better overall, I'm game.

Maatta's name is only brought up with impact players coming back the other way. So I fail to see how it deserves scorn.

People worry about the blue line, but with a halfway decent 4/5 D to replace Maatta, it's no worse than what we've had the past two years.

 

[Peat]

Any actual documentation for that outside what you can infer from Pittsburgh "journalist" group think?

Beyond that.... most any Maatta trade scenario that you and others come up with merits scorn irrespective of them being considered by management or not .

We've clearly been in on Duchene and Maatta is our only trade chip that fitted the keystone of Sakic's ask. In Kirk's post detailing the accepted then rejected bid, Maatta appears in some of the bids, but not the final one because he broke his hand. Pretty sure Kirk's said there was more general talk too, but I can't remember for sure/cba to search/am not sure how trustworthy people see him as anyway.

 

[Riptide]

Rutherford doesn't have a crystal ball, but he does have the numbers of all the other GMs and can get a good idea of what the centre market looks like before deciding on Bonino's contract. He's chosen to gamble on what he can get that isn't Bonino based on that understanding.

If the gamble goes wrong, then I think its fair to blame Rutherford for misreading the market. Just like he deserves praise if it turns out he got it right.

That's actually a big part of this. None of us have a clue what the market looks like or who's available at what cost.

 

[Riptide]

Connor Brown got 2.1m/3yrs with 20 goals in his rookie season. Long term would've brought that AAV up. But for Rust I would give him 2.25m/5yrs

It's going to cost more than that. Think 2.5-3m over 4-5 years. Might even go a tad higher if their thinking 6+ years.

 

[Shady Machine]

I need to start calling ******** on this. We are going to miss Bones. We are going to miss Fleury. Eventually we are going to miss Ian Cole. We are eventually going to miss Sheary. We are going to miss Hags.

It's a salary cap world. We can't be the team giving 4.1m to Bones for 4 years. But we are for sure going to miss what he brought to the team. IMO this is the most classic example of Cup champion retooling based on salary cap.

You can call ******** on whatever you want but that doesn't mean the Pens couldn't have afforded him. You move Hags, there's your money. You don't sign Hunwick and play Ruh. There's your money.

Obviously you have to make sacrifices and changes. I'm just asking for those that are pleased with the plan at center so far what they are expecting or would be happy with. It's frankly out of genuine curiosity.

I'm disappointed that JR moved on from Bones without having a plan he could act on sooner. I'm willing to see how it pans out before saying he made a mistake (although if forced to make a call, I'd say so far letting go of Bones was a mistake). I think my view is hopeful skepticism.

 

[Shady Machine]

Karlsson's also 1/4 the price, which would allow us to add someone else if he wasn't up to the task.

Plenty of other names have been mentioned too, besides Duchene. Bozak, Haula, Bjugstad, Eakin, Lindberg, Sheahan (ugh), Faksa, Shore, and Girgensons to name a few.

That's a solid list thanks. I don't think any of the good players on that list are reasonably available though. Dallas has zero needs on paper that we could offer them.

Karlsson or Lindberg could likely be had for overpayments and Eakin without retention (I'd gladly take Bones over him though). Not sure about availability of the others and I'm not mentioning the ugh guy because I don't want it to come true.

 

[Shady Machine]

But again, we don't know what JR knows. Patience will set you free....

Ultimately you are correct, but then what the hell do we discuss? The answer to every discussion could be "JR knows more than we do"

 

[Ogrezilla]

You can call ******** on whatever you want but that doesn't mean the Pens couldn't have afforded him. You move Hags, there's your money. You don't sign Hunwick and play Ruh. There's your money.

Obviously you have to make sacrifices and changes. I'm just asking for those that are pleased with the plan at center so far what they are expecting or would be happy with. It's frankly out of genuine curiosity.

I'm disappointed that JR moved on from Bones without having a plan he could act on sooner. I'm willing to see how it pans out before saying he made a mistake (although if forced to make a call, I'd say so far letting go of Bones was a mistake). I think my view is hopeful skepticism.

The fact that he could literally fit under the cap doesn't mean it wouldn't be an overpayment/bad contract though. I could technically afford to go buy a new car right now, but it would be a bad use of my money. If we really wanted we could have made bonino and Boyle both fit under the cap. We had the money to do it, but I'd still say we couldn't afford it.

I do get your point, but I'm yet to see an alternative plan that I believe makes the team look any better. I don't think the ability to act sooner means a plan was better.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Words can not describe how much I think trading Maatta is an awful idea. It's just a flat out bad idea unless the Penguins are getting back a defenseman for him. The issue is peiole are suggesting trasing him for a guy who's going to leave as a free agent in 2 years.

I seriously don't know why so many people won't trade Sprong, yet they constantly advocated trading Maatta.

 

[BHD]

Bones is the only guy I can't get on board with.

Fleury, absolutely. He was part of a working tandem, and it benefited the team in the long-run (i.e., the past two seasons)... Daley, even with his shortcomings, allowed the team to play the way it did... Cullen was fantastic in 99% of the games he played, and took some of the responsibilities away from the stars... Bonino, though, wasn't even on the radar until HBK became a thing after Geno went down. He played a great stretch of hockey from March up until Game 6 against the Sharks, and then went back to being mediocre. Bones was part of why this team got owned at times in the following playoffs ('17).

I agree that the team is going to "miss" certain players, but JR didn't want to get caught up in loyalty.

 

[Peat]

That's a solid list thanks. I don't think any of the good players on that list are reasonably available though. Dallas has zero needs on paper that we could offer them.

Karlsson or Lindberg could likely be had for overpayments and Eakin without retention (I'd gladly take Bones over him though). Not sure about availability of the others and I'm not mentioning the ugh guy because I don't want it to come true.

Mr Ugh is a season removed from 20 ES points, 100+ minutes of PK time and a positive corsi. I've really not watched him enough to go beyond stat watching but he does have a history of fitting the need.

I'll admit to being more interested in the Vegas two though and depending on the scale of overpayment would go for it.

Ultimately you are correct, but then what the hell do we discuss? The answer to every discussion could be "JR knows more than we do"

I might start using that as my clinching argument in the off-topic thread

 

[Empoleon8771]

Just trade Wilson and a 3rd for Girgensons so I don't have to read the bickering in this thread anymore