Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Trust me... nothing has changed.

[Gurglesons]

The percentage of defensive zone draws gets higher with every post.

I mean that is the reality of what Bones was playing in the playoffs. That's a rad argument though. 26.5% o-zone / 73.5% d-zone starts. It's cool though. He should've put up 15 puts in the playoffs because Kessel was on his line the whole playoffs right?

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

I just don't understand the concern over center when they have until February to get 4 centers with whom they can roll into the playoffs.

Unless you are worried that the team doesn't make the playoff picture which is just silly.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

I mean that is the reality of what Bones was playing in the playoffs. That's a rad argument though. 26.5% o-zone / 73.5% d-zone starts. It's cool though. He should've put up 15 puts in the playoffs because Kessel was on his line the whole playoffs right?
T
Jessel

Well, when a player is so bad offensively that Phil Kessel can't score goals on his line, you kinda don't want to give him a lot of offensive zone draws, you know?

Maybe he would have gotten more offensive zone starts in the playoffs if he didn't spend the entire season handling the puck like a hand grenade.

 

[Gurglesons]

Well, when a player is so bad offensively that Phil Kessel can't score goals on his line, you kinda don't want to give him a lot of offensive zone draws, you know?

Maybe he would have gotten more offensive zone starts in the playoffs if he didn't spend the entire season handling the puck like a hand grenade.

lol. Okay.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

lol. Okay.

I mean you are the one who is trying to argue that Bonino wasn't an anchor last year despite all of the facts that support the argument that he was terrible last year.

Again, every single winger who played significant time with Bonino played worse with Bonino than with any other center. That is not a coincidence. Sure, he was given a lot of defensive zone draws which might limit his production. On the other hand, he was playing a lot of that time with the 2nd best goal scoring winger of the last decade which should have increased Bonino's production.

You claimed that this most recent cup was the result of center depth, you were refuted, and now you are mad that people are poking holes in your hyperbole.

 

[Ogrezilla]

to call Bonino an anchor last year is a stretch, at least most of the time. He had a few chunks of really bad play. But he was also quite good a lot of the time.

 

[Gurglesons]

I mean you are the one who is trying to argue that Bonino wasn't an anchor last year despite all of the facts that support the argument that he was terrible last year.

Again, every single winger who played significant time with Bonino played worse with Bonino than with any other center. That is not a coincidence. Sure, he was given a lot of defensive zone draws which might limit his production. On the other hand, he was playing a lot of that time with the 2nd best goal scoring winger of the last decade which should have increased Bonino's production.

You claimed that this most recent cup was the result of center depth, you were refuted, and now you are mad that people are poking holes in your hyperbole.

Unless we get Duchene our Bonino replacement will likely score less in the regular season. I'd argue Bones given his deployment is a top five bottom six center in the league.

Nobody has proven anything besides jerking each other off that "he played with Kessel and only put up a .48ppg pace."!!!!

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

to call Bonino an anchor last year is a stretch, at least most of the time. He had a few chunks of really bad play. But he was also quite good a lot of the time.

He was ripped rightfully in the vast majority of gdt's last year. By my recollection he had a few hot streaks throughout the year but ranged from average to terrible the rest of the time.

 

[Jenkins]

I think we have good wing depth I think players like Rust, Kuhn, Hags and Wilson saw bumps from their centers. You

Rust - can do his own thing so if he is with Malkin, Crosby his production would go up but I don't think there'll be a difference from Bonino to who we'll get.

Kuhn - probably won't be on the team.

Wilson - will likely see a drop being on the 4th line but that has nothing to do with Bonino (and I talked about the 4th line role in a previous post).

Hags - has been fairly consistent over his career and I think his production here would be more tied to Kessel than what Bonino did. He had an awful shot % and normalised would have put up what he normally does.

2017 Bonino was ok but nothing fantastic. Someone mentioned before a lot of linemates played better away from Bonino in 16/17. Outside of the HBK 2016 cup run (and down the stretch) Bonino was average.

I think you'll see in time we will be better off with what JR does than signing Bonino's new contract.

 

[Ogrezilla]

He was ripped rightfully in the vast majority of gdt's last year. By my recollection he had a few hot streaks throughout the year but ranged from average to terrible the rest of the time.

he was average or hot about as much as he was bad. He ended up statistically looking like a pretty standard 3C. I'm not saying he was awesome, and he was an anchor more often than one would like, but it's still not a fair description of him as a player over the season.

Unless we get Duchene our Bonino replacement will likely score less in the regular season. I'd argue Bones given his deployment is a top five bottom six center in the league.

Nobody has proven anything besides jerking each other off that "he played with Kessel and only put up a .48ppg pace."!!!!

That's just as much of a stretch as calling him an anchor imo.

 

[Gurglesons]

he was average or hot about as much as he was bad. He ended up statistically looking like a pretty standard 3C. I'm not saying he was awesome, and he was an anchor more often than one would like, but it's still not a fair description of him as a player over the season.



That's just as much of a stretch as calling him an anchor imo.

That's cool. Back it up. Show me proof.

He is in the 70s in terms of putting up points for players playing center while eating tough minutes and putting up a .48ppg, playing on the second power play and not having the advantage of jumping up on the wing like a lot of 3Cs around the league.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Unless we get Duchene our Bonino replacement will likely score less in the regular season. I'd argue Bones given his deployment is a top five bottom six center in the league.

Nobody has proven anything besides jerking each other off that "he played with Kessel and only put up a .48ppg pace."!!!!

What exactly have you proven? Your argument is basically that Bonino had a good year because his production was limited by defensive zone draws.

And you still have no answer as to why all of Bonino's linemates struggled both in terms of tradtional production and advanced metrics last year when playing with Bonino.

Furthermore, did you watch the games? You are really gonna argue Bonino is a top 5 bottom six center based on last year? Bonino has certainly had years where he was at that level but it is very clear that last year was not one of them.

 

[Ogrezilla]

That's cool. Back it up. Show me proof.

after you

oh right, that can't be proven one way or another.

 

[Jenkins]

What exactly have you proven? Your argument is basically that Bonino had a good year because his production was limited by defensive zone draws.

And you still have no answer as to why all of Bonino's linemates struggled both in terms of tradtional production and advanced metrics last year when playing with Bonino.

Furthermore, did you watch the games? You are really gonna argue Bonino is a top 5 bottom six center based on last year? Bonino has certainly had years where he was at that level but it is very clear that last year was not one of them.

and this is why most of us are happy he wasn't given that contract here.

We don't have any bad contracts right now. I'd like to keep it that way.

 

[Gurglesons]

What exactly have you proven? Your argument is basically that Bonino had a good year because his production was limited by defensive zone draws.

And you still have no answer as to why all of Bonino's linemates struggled both in terms of tradtional production and advanced metrics last year when playing with Bonino.

Furthermore, did you watch the games? You are really gonna argue Bonino is a top 5 bottom six center based on last year? Bonino has certainly had years where he was at that level but it is very clear that last year was not one of them.

Yes. He was right at the cusp of 60 in terms of production for centers. That makes him a fringe 2nd line center in terms of production.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yes. He was right at the cusp of 60 in terms of production for centers. That makes him a fringe 2nd line center in terms of production.

for what it's worth, he actually was a 2nd line center for about 1/4 of the season.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

What exactly have you proven? Your argument is basically that Bonino had a good year because his production was limited by defensive zone draws.

And you still have no answer as to why all of Bonino's linemates struggled both in terms of tradtional production and advanced metrics last year when playing with Bonino.

Furthermore, did you watch the games? You are really gonna argue Bonino is a top 5 bottom six center based on last year? Bonino has certainly had years where he was at that level but it is very clear that last year was not one of them.

And defensive zone draws only matter when it's Bonino.

When it's a target like Bennett, we can just quietly pretend like it's a non-issue. It's the same reason why the next 2 years are the only thing that matters...except when it's Bennett, because then the power of unbridled baseless optimism trumps everything. He'll score a bunch more points and take a bunch more defensive draws and win a bunch more faceoffs, something which is so certain that we can risk parting with our leading playoff goal scorer...and a 1st.

 

[Gurglesons]

And defensive zone draws only matter when it's Bonino.

When it's a target like Bennett, we can just quietly pretend like it's a non-issue. It's the same reason why the next 2 years are the only thing that matters...except when it's Bennett, because then the power of unbridled baseless optimism trumps everything. He'll score a bunch more points and take a bunch more defensive draws and win a bunch more faceoffs, something which is so certain that we can risk parting with our leading playoff goal scorer...and a 1st.

Bennett is 22 and has just started playing center. I have been more than honest that I'm biased when it comes to him.

You're getting really good at the troll job though.

 

[Rufus]

If you are going to eliminate Dumo's legitimacy as a top-4 D because of being "blinded" by two cup runs, let's just throw the legitimacy of Sheary, Rust, Wilson, and Kuhnhackl too. Oh, and Jake Guentzel! They have the same sample size under the exact same circumstances

 

[Peat]

Except there's nothing to support that. What we're trying to do is deploy the best fighter in the league to minimize targeted attempts to injure our superstars. Where exactly is the counter-evidence?

And the point I'm making about turning the other cheek is that while it's great to keep calm and carry on, it doesn't amount to much if your franchise player ends up on the shelf with a concussion, which we came dangerously close to seeing last year from exactly the kind of attack Reaves was brought in to curb.

So now the rest of our team can turn their cheek while Reaves caves in the perpetrator's.

I think this argument has been had a time or twenty here already; I doubt having it again changes anything other than giving us a change of pace from "Has Rutherford mucked up 3C/defensive contracts". I will just say that what you said doesn't affect the argument against in the slightest and that counter-evidence has been posted. I'm happy to agree to disagree and move on.

I mean that is the reality of what Bones was playing in the playoffs. That's a rad argument though. 26.5% o-zone / 73.5% d-zone starts. It's cool though. He should've put up 15 puts in the playoffs because Kessel was on his line the whole playoffs right?

You'd find so many more listeners if you didn't chuck out an outrageous piece of hyperbole every few pages.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Bennett is 22 and has just started playing center. I have been more than honest that I'm biased when it comes to him.

21.

And that's why a contender doesn't trade a 22 year old who's already led the playoffs in goal scoring for a 21 year old magic bean.

You're getting really good at the troll job though.

Showing inconsistencies is not trolling.

When you go off about how important production and zone starts are for one player and then ignore them for another, people are going to point out the double-standard. If you don't like it, feel free to adopt more consistency instead of making your arguments ad hoc and expecting everyone to forget what you said before.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Yes. He was right at the cusp of 60 in terms of production for centers. That makes him a fringe 2nd line center in terms of production.

He was 74th overall in points among centers, and that's largely due to quite a few centers missing games causing them to finish slightly below him. For instance, Zibanejad finished tied with him, but did so in 57 games to Bonino's 80. Couturier finished 3 points back, but in 14 less games.

Link

In terms of points per game, he's ranked 85th. When you remove guys from the list who aren't centers, but NHL.com lists them anyway, like Guentzel and Cammalleri, he's still roughly in the 80 range.

Link

I don't know how either qualify him as "right at the cusp of 60" and establishing his production as that of a fringe 2C.

 

[Peat]

Because I think that Bennett with wingers like Rust, Hagelin, Kessel or Hornqvist puts him in a much better situation than Calgary.

Because I think we won our last two cups based on center depth and everyone arguing with me doesn't.

And because I believe finding one player to eat into Crosby and Malkin's defensive minutes like
Bonino and Cullen did is going to be insanely difficult unless we give up a role player like Rust or Hornqvist.

Or we are going to get players like McClement. Which is asking a lot of our top six.

This doesn't really answer my question. If the next two years are all that matters, why target Bennett at the cost of Guentzel - who will be on an ELC both years - if you could get a Bonino type guy for Hornqvist or Rust, who offer far less in terms of points per dollar?

And why did you suggest this deal based on the idea it would benefit us long term?

I know you've got a lot of time for Bennett and his potential, and agree we can offer him a lot of support, but if the only thing that matters is the next two years, why take him when his best years will come in "doesn't matter" time when you could have a ready now player for less?

 

[Jenkins]

21.

And that's why a contender doesn't trade a 22 year old who's already led the playoffs in goal scoring for a 21 year old magic bean.



Showing inconsistencies is not trolling.

When you go off about how important production and zone starts are for one player and then ignore them for another, people are going to point out the double-standard. If you don't like it, feel free to adopt more consistency instead of making your arguments ad hoc and expecting everyone to forget what you said before.

Are zone starts as important as they are made out to be?

I assume they don't take into it neutral zone starts right?

If that assumption is correct Bonino took 15 faceoffs per game (average). Let's say 5 are neutral and using Pixies stats we get:

3 o zone starts
5 neutral starts
7 d zone starts

Is that really a big deal since it's only a starting spot? Win the he faceoff and we are going forward most of the time.

I don't see why that's a huge deal unless someone can explain to me why.

 

[Gurglesons]

Are zone starts as important as they are made out to be?

I assume they don't take into it neutral zone starts right?

If that assumption is correct Bonino took 15 faceoffs per game (average). Let's say 5 are neutral and using Pixies stats we get:

3 o zone starts
5 neutral starts
7 d zone starts

Is that really a big deal since it's only a starting spot? Win the he faceoff and we are going forward most of the time.

I don't see why that's a huge deal unless someone can explain to me why.

It helps explain statiscally how a coach views a player. If you're starting in the d-zone 70% of the playoffs chances are that you are being used in mostly defensive situations which would likely impact your point totals.

And yeah it completely discredits neutral zone faceoffs.