Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Trust me... nothing has changed.

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Peat

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Jun 14, 2016
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Why would you spend the kind of money we are on your top four especially in regards to term then?

Like I don't get how spending 4 mil on Bones is insane and spending 25 mil on at best the 6th best D core in the league isn't.

Like how is Bonino's contract a huge risk and Dumo's not when it comes to term?

Because I see no reason to stint our top 4 dmen either?

And you're talking to the wrong person when it comes to comparing Bonino's contract with Dumo's. I don't think 4x4m was a significant risk and would have been cool with signing him back at that. Its more of a risk than Dumo because he's older, is a worse skater and has a smaller frame for absorbing punishment, but I don't think those factors alone massively change the risk factor.
 

Jenkins

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That is true about the Hagelin situation.

But at the same time you are assuming a career best 25 pt Karlsson (I'd actually be happy to get him) and Sheahan who put up 18 can suddenly hit 40 given more defensive starts and playing more minutes here.

The point is all you need to worry about is addressing a #6 D which is insanely easy to do.

I wouldn't want Sheahan but Karlsson's best year was the previous one and he'd be going to the most potent offense in the league so I'd say he'd put up another career best, comfortably. He was good in our series too.

I'd love Lindberg. He'd be my first pick out of the more realistic/gettable/affordable options. If JR could swing Lindberg and Karlsson that would be amazing. Not likely though.
 

Empoleon8771

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Also, when comparing Dumoulin to Bonino, you have to realize Bonino is a far worse player than Dumoulin is. It's hard to compare forwards to defensemen, but Bonino is a 3rd line center and Dumoulin is a borderline top pair defenseman. Bonino's contract is more risky because Bonino isn't that good of a player, at least not as good as Dumoulin.
 

Peat

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Also, when comparing Dumoulin to Bonino, you have to realize Bonino is a far worse player than Dumoulin is. It's hard to compare forwards to defensemen, but Bonino is a 3rd line center and Dumoulin is a borderline top pair defenseman. Bonino's contract is more risky because Bonino isn't that good of a player, at least not as good as Dumoulin.

And 4m for Bonino is about as much as he should be sanely paid while 4m for Dumo is under what he'll make in free agency.
 

Gurglesons

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Didn't the Finals illustrate what happens when you have a really bad third pairing?

No. I think it illustrates what happens when you stack up your offense and have your offensive stars go wild.

Nashville lost because their offense couldn't touch ours and Rinne imploded in Pitt.

I also think this you should remember the series. We basically blew game 1 - 4 and should've been down in Game 1. Then in Game 6 we got another BS call
and won by essentially one goal.
 
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Gurglesons

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And 4m for Bonino is about as much as he should be sanely paid while 4m for Dumo is under what he'll make in free agency.

Like I said, I own a Dumo jersey. But, he is quite clearly making above what he should. He has 5 goals and less than 50 points in two hundred games playing on what has been an offensive juggernaut and playing huge minutes with the most prolific D-man on that team who has been almost a ppg.
 

Gurglesons

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I don't think they'd replace Bonino, but I think the drop off in the other areas of the roster that I mentioned are a lot bigger than the dropoff from Bonino to Sheahan. You don't just need to worry about the #6D, because Wilson isn't good enough to be a top-6 winger and your 4th line is just awful. People complain about Rowney having a full time role, but Rowney wouldn't even be the worst guy on that hypothetical line. You create multiple holes on that roster just to overpay to keep a maddeningly inconsistent 3rd line center that isn't worth keeping. You churn and burn players like Bonino, you keep them when they're cheap and let them go when they become too expensive. Re-signing him would have been the opposite of that. I would 100% rather take this lineup:

Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Sheahan-Kessel
Wilson-Rowney-Reaves

Maatta-Letang
Dumoulin-Schultz
Cole-Hunwick

Over your lineup. It's not even close.

It's not even close?

First off, what exactly are you trading for Sheahan?

Second, what happens if he can't produce again and you tied up two mil in an 18 point player?

I'll take an upswing argument with Karlsson, but Sheahan is 25 and coming off an atrocious season and his more statistically impressive seasons came when he was playing 50% plus in terms of offensive zone starts. When he started playing more defensive minutes in the NHL his game started to fall off a cliff the last two years.

Also, hasn't he been moved around from center to wing the last two years?

Third, why the **** is Guentzel with Malkin?
 
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wej20

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It's not even close?

First off, what exactly are you trading for Sheahan?

Second, what happens if he can't produce again and you tied up two mil in an 18 point player?

I'll take an upswing argument with Karlsson, but Sheahan is 25 and coming off an atrocious season and his more statistically impressive seasons came when he was playing 50% plus in terms of offensive zone starts. When he started playing more defensive minutes in the NHL his game started to fall off a cliff the last two years.

Also, hasn't he been moved around from center to wing the last two years?

Third, why the **** is Guentzel with Malkin?

I'd be shocked if you couldn't pick up Sheahan for a 3rd/mid level prospect. If they move him they could sign Athansiou.
 

Tender Rip

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Feb 12, 2007
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It's not even close?

It is just a fact in this league that players contributing on ELC's are important and that players become more expensive in UFA.

You just cannot compare to an "after the trade deadline" roster of last year and expect that everything should be equal or better.

Outside of C-depth we arguably are better everywhere and have useful kids competing for spots also. The best if those just aren't C's so we cannot expect to see any contribution from them until space opens up. Be it Hags... or Sheary... or someone else... some winger will eventually be dealt this season.

From an asset management POW it would be nice if Hags produced a bit before being dealt... or if Sheary confirmed not being a fluke.... or maybe there's a bit of fire to previous Kessel smoke and something big happens (more likely if Sprong looks great).

Ultimately hardly anyone can point to a C who is genuinely available/matches what we'd like for anything we would reasonably give up. Sure, I still think William Karlsson is a very interesting option, but his availability is anything but obvious.

The market will obviously open up more when team needs are more settled across the board. This season we just have to wait until the opening is there.

I'd feel differently if there hadn't been the ED, and/or JR had obviously whiffed on several meaningful UFA targets. But I cannot say I think he did.
 

Shady Machine

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I don't think they'd replace Bonino, but I think the drop off in the other areas of the roster that I mentioned are a lot bigger than the dropoff from Bonino to Sheahan. You don't just need to worry about the #6D, because Wilson isn't good enough to be a top-6 winger and your 4th line is just awful. People complain about Rowney having a full time role, but Rowney wouldn't even be the worst guy on that hypothetical line. You create multiple holes on that roster just to overpay to keep a maddeningly inconsistent 3rd line center that isn't worth keeping. You churn and burn players like Bonino, you keep them when they're cheap and let them go when they become too expensive. Re-signing him would have been the opposite of that. I would 100% rather take this lineup:

Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Sheahan-Kessel
Wilson-Rowney-Reaves

Maatta-Letang
Dumoulin-Schultz
Cole-Hunwick

Over your lineup. It's not even close.

I take pixies roster which I guess is a good illustration of why this debate exists.
 

Ogrezilla

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Jul 5, 2009
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Why would you spend the kind of money we are on your top four especially in regards to term then?

Like I don't get how spending 4 mil on Bones is insane and spending 25 mil on at best the 6th best D core in the league isn't.

Like how is Bonino's contract a huge risk and Dumo's not when it comes to term?

Because dumo is a much better player than bonino.

And I'm with emp on these two roster versions. I'll take a downgrade at 3c over ruh and dp as our 6 and 7 d. We'd be sitting here debating the hole on defense instead if we had that roster. And I'm not even sure those forward lines are much better. There's a hole at lw without hags, and the 4th line is actually worse.
 
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Shady Machine

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Because dumo is a much better player than bonino.

And I'm with emp on these two roster versions. I'll take a downgrade at 3c over ruh and dp as our 6 and 7 d. We'd be sitting here debating the hole on defense instead if we had that roster. And I'm not even sure those forward lines are much better. There's a hole at lw without hags, and the 4th line is actually worse.

The difference is we have a bunch of young wing options that can graduate during the season and very little at center. The only actual center prospect we have is Blueger. People say Simon but he's played nearly exclusively on the wing. Same with the others people keep mentioning.
 

WheresRamziAbid

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Oct 31, 2013
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Like I said, I own a Dumo jersey. But, he is quite clearly making above what he should. He has 5 goals and less than 50 points in two hundred games playing on what has been an offensive juggernaut and playing huge minutes with the most prolific D-man on that team who has been almost a ppg.

Ugh, hes not getting paid for points they are a bonus, he could score zero points and be a fair contract. His job is to suppress shots and feed transition. Both in which he is really good at.
 

NMK11

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Because dumo is a much better player than bonino.

And I'm with emp on these two roster versions. I'll take a downgrade at 3c over ruh and dp as our 6 and 7 d. We'd be sitting here debating the hole on defense instead if we had that roster. And I'm not even sure those forward lines are much better. There's a hole at lw without hags, and the 4th line is actually worse.

But I think one of the points is which will be easier to upgrade during the season, a bottom pairing D or a 3C? Third pairing defensemen get moved all the time during the season and at the deadline. A 3C is going to cost a lot more, so you may end up losing Hagelin anyway.

To me, if we were going to spend money on a defenseman during the offseason it should have been for someone who is more of a second pairing than a third pairing guy. I would have felt better if our third pairing was Cole-Schultz because then, even with a bad 3C (and lets be honest, right now we are going to be icing a bad 3C) our defense is much more solid.
 

Ogrezilla

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Jake - Crosby - Sheary
Wilson - Malkin - Kessel
Rust - Bonino - Hornqvisr
Kuhn - Sundqvist - Rowney

Dumo - Letang
Maatta - Schultz
Cole / Pooh - Cole / Ruh

Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Sheahan-Kessel
Wilson-Rowney-Reaves

Maatta-Letang
Dumoulin-Schultz
Cole-Hunwick

The difference is we have a bunch of young wing options that can graduate during the season and very little at center. The only actual center prospect we have is Blueger. People say Simon but he's played nearly exclusively on the wing. Same with the others people keep mentioning.

But we don't have any young D ready to step up either. That's my real issue with the Bonino version of this. Bringing back Bones would have just created a new hole on D that's now harder to fill because we're overpaying to avoid the 3C hole. The fact that in doing this the 4th line is actually considerably worse is just the bonus that makes me call it an easy decision between the two rosters.

But I think one of the points is which will be easier to upgrade during the season, a bottom pairing D or a 3C? Third pairing defensemen get moved all the time during the season and at the deadline. A 3C is going to cost a lot more, so you may end up losing Hagelin anyway.

To me, if we were going to spend money on a defenseman during the offseason it should have been for someone who is more of a second pairing than a third pairing guy. I would have felt better if our third pairing was Cole-Schultz because then, even with a bad 3C (and lets be honest, right now we are going to be icing a bad 3C) our defense is much more solid.

But it gets harder to add guys when you're now overpaying your 3C for the next 4 years.

I think a lot of this must come down to differing opinions of Hunwick.
 

Jenkins

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But I think one of the points is which will be easier to upgrade during the season, a bottom pairing D or a 3C? Third pairing defensemen get moved all the time during the season and at the deadline. A 3C is going to cost a lot more, so you may end up losing Hagelin anyway.

To me, if we were going to spend money on a defenseman during the offseason it should have been for someone who is more of a second pairing than a third pairing guy. I would have felt better if our third pairing was Cole-Schultz because then, even with a bad 3C (and lets be honest, right now we are going to be icing a bad 3C) our defense is much more solid.

If we spent more on D in the off season and signed Bonino would we even be able to fit under the cap? Hunwick's a solid guy and was there really wasn't any top 4 D man worth the money in FA besides Shattenkirk (which we couldn't afford).
 

Empoleon8771

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It's not even close?

First off, what exactly are you trading for Sheahan?

You could probably get Sheahan for borderline nothing, since the Wings need cap space to sign Athanasiou.

Second, what happens if he can't produce again and you tied up two mil in an 18 point player?

I highly doubt that Sheahan is going to be only an 18 point player when he's playing with Phil Kessel. I would expect the absolute minimum for him to be 15 goals and 25 points if he's getting PP minutes. Not as good of production as Bonino, but not terrible. The point is he'd be a downgrade from Bonino, but the downgrade in other areas of the roster would be larger.

I'll take an upswing argument with Karlsson, but Sheahan is 25 and coming off an atrocious season and his more statistically impressive seasons came when he was playing 50% plus in terms of offensive zone starts. When he started playing more defensive minutes in the NHL his game started to fall off a cliff the last two years.

Also, hasn't he been moved around from center to wing the last two years?

Sheahan put up 14 goals and 25 points in 2015-2016 when getting below 50% offensive zone starts. That's not terrible. I'm also not going to take his production on a cluster**** of a team as gospel for how good he is right now. Do you really think he wouldn't produce more with Kessel in Pittsburgh than he did while playing with the Wings?

And anyway, my point was that the 3C would be someone like Sheahan, not Sheahan specifically.

Third, why the **** is Guentzel with Malkin?

Because Guentzel works with both Crosby and Malkin and it makes more sense to keep Sheary with Crosby and play Guentzel with Malkin in my eyes? It's not like I'm suggesting Guentzel go to the 3rd line here.

I take pixies roster which I guess is a good illustration of why this debate exists.

Why would you rather take that roster? You make your 2nd line, 4th line and bottom pair worse only to overpay to keep a guy you shouldn't overpay to keep.

The difference is we have a bunch of young wing options that can graduate during the season and very little at center. The only actual center prospect we have is Blueger. People say Simon but he's played nearly exclusively on the wing. Same with the others people keep mentioning.

But we have no young options that can graduate on defense, outside of Pouliot. The Penguins have more young 3C options at center than they do on defense, just because they have no one even close outside of Pouliot on defense.

But I think one of the points is which will be easier to upgrade during the season, a bottom pairing D or a 3C? Third pairing defensemen get moved all the time during the season and at the deadline. A 3C is going to cost a lot more, so you may end up losing Hagelin anyway.

To me, if we were going to spend money on a defenseman during the offseason it should have been for someone who is more of a second pairing than a third pairing guy. I would have felt better if our third pairing was Cole-Schultz because then, even with a bad 3C (and lets be honest, right now we are going to be icing a bad 3C) our defense is much more solid.

And then you start accounting for injuries, and one bottom pair defenseman turns into 2 or 3. Look at the roster from last year, the Penguins defense had Ruhwedel having a great season plus 6 legitimate NHL defensemen and they still had to trade for both Hainsey and Streit.

Let's pretend you didn't sign Hunwick and instead have Cole, Ruhwedel and Pouliot as your #5-#7 defensemen. Pouliot could easily bust, that could lose one guy. Ruhwedel could easily prove last year was a fluke, that could lose another guy. And then there's injuries. Suddenly, one bottom pair defenseman turns into needing 3 bottom pair defenseman, and that's with only one injury and two risky guys not paying off.

Could Ruhwedel and Pouliot both progress or show that last year wasn't a fluke? Yeah, but it's a risk to do so and I really don't know why you're overpaying for Bonino to take that risk.
 

Shady Machine

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People are talking about McKegg and Johnson as options at center. Tinordi qualifies if those guys do
 

Empoleon8771

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People are talking about McKegg and Johnson as options at center. Tinordi qualifies if those guys do

I don't think anyone is talking about McKegg as a potential 3C option. The potential 3C options are Rowney, Blueger and Dea in my eyes, possibly Simon too if he can play center and Johnson is a wildcard. The Penguins have Pouliot on defense, that's about it. Bengtsson would be there too had he not lost an entire season last year, but he did.
 

Shady Machine

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I don't think anyone is talking about McKegg as a potential 3C option. The potential 3C options are Rowney, Blueger and Dea in my eyes, possibly Simon too if he can play center and Johnson is a wildcard. The Penguins have Pouliot on defense, that's about it. Bengtsson would be there too had he not lost an entire season last year, but he did.

Simon is a winger, Johnson is someone no one here knows a thing about and Blueger is on par with Pouliot plus even with Hunwick we have 6 D plus Pouliot. We don't have a 3C at all.

Honestly I didn't hate the Hunwick signing at the time but it's fair to question whether it was the best allocation of resources.
 

Empoleon8771

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Simon is a winger, Johnson is someone no one here knows a thing about and Blueger is on par with Pouliot plus even with Hunwick we have 6 D plus Pouliot. We don't have a 3C at all.

Honestly I isn't hate the Hunwick signing but it's fair to question whether it was the best allocation of resources.

I also don't know if Simon can play center, hence why I said maybe with Simon and I called Johnson a wildcard because no one here knows much about him.

The issue is signing Hunwick didn't prevent the Penguins from getting a 3C. It may have prevented the Penguins from keeping Bonino, but it didn't prevent the Penguins from getting a 3C. They're still going to get a 3C. The comparison is "Bonino and Ruhwedel being the #6D vs $2.5-$3 million to spend on a 3C and Hunwick being the #6D". It's entirely too early to say the signing was an improper allocation of resources until the roster is actually finished. People who are complaining about it are assuming that the Penguins are just going to sit on their remaining cap space and play Rowney as their 3C.

I also don't know why people are so hellbent on saying the Penguins had to bring back Bonino. He got overpaid by a team lacking center depth. The Penguins would have been dumb to match that offer, it would have been flat out an incorrect decision. You don't overpay to keep players like Bonino only to hurt your team in other spots.
 

Gurglesons

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I don't think anyone is talking about McKegg as a potential 3C option. The potential 3C options are Rowney, Blueger and Dea in my eyes, possibly Simon too if he can play center and Johnson is a wildcard. The Penguins have Pouliot on defense, that's about it. Bengtsson would be there too had he not lost an entire season last year, but he did.

This argument doesn't work. The only person that has "proven" they can play center in the NHL is Rowney and he has done it in less games than Pooh did at defense while also pretty much exclusively playing wing in the playoffs.

If Shady and I are having our cake and eating it by using hindsight with Bonino how is acting like Blueger, Dea or even Rowney are realistic options at C not?

As for the Sheahan argument. I really don't think you get him for cheap, the Wings have made it obvious they are at least going to attempt to make the playoffs. Maybe you wait until December and you can get him for less. Also, I hate the argument of he will play with Kessel and produce. Kessel may produce despite a crappy center. So we should bring in a player that Kessel can drag up the ice?

Sheahan in 15-16 was started 49-51 in terms of offensive starts he is not getting that here. Also, he put up 45% in the dot.

Look, I'll hear you out on other players, but Sheahan sucks for what we need in our bottom six.
 

Empoleon8771

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This argument doesn't work. The only person that has "proven" they can play center in the NHL is Rowney and he has done it in less games than Pooh did at defense while also pretty much exclusively playing wing in the playoffs.

If Shady and I are having our cake and eating it by using hindsight with Bonino how is acting like Blueger, Dea or even Rowney are realistic options at C not?


As for the Shehahan argument. I really don't think you get him for cheap, the Wings have made it obvious they are at least going to attempt to make the playoffs. Maybe you wait until December and you can get him for less. Also, I hate the argument of he will play with Kessel and produce. Kessel may produce despite a crappy center. So we should bring in a player that Kessel can drag up the ice?

No one knows if they're realistic options, that's why I'm saying the 3C is to be determined. I'm saying they're potential solutions, not realistic solutions. There are more potential 3C options than there are D options, which makes it more likely that they'll be able to find a 3C out of a group of Dea, Blueger, Rowney and Simon over getting lucky with Pouliot getting his head out of his ass. All of those guys are basically just scratch off cards at this point, some might be more valuable than others but all of them are inherently risky right now. If all of Blueger, Rowney, Dea, Simon and Johnson have a 15% chance of being a 3C caliber player and Pouliot has a 50% chance of being a bottom pair defenseman, you're more likely to get a 3C from that group of 5 than get a bottom pair defenseman from only Pouliot.

Also lmao at your defense of Sheahan not being cheap to acquire. The Wings were looking to trade him at the deadline last year and they need cap space to re-sign Athanasiou. The idea that the Wings are going to keep Sheahan because they want to make the playoffs is just kooky.
 
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