Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Trust me... nothing has changed.

[Dipsy Doodle]

It must be fun to live in a world where you can sign whoever you want for whatever you want on the basis of "any contract can be moved", and not have to live with the crippling consequences of bad contracts.

Hey, is Ken Holland in here?

 

[Gurglesons]

He doesn't cost nothing though. He costs over 4 million and that impacts our roster going forward.

Bonino isn't worth 4+ mil. Salary and term is a significant overpayment.

Have you looked at the comparable contracts? Name me a center that isn't on an ELC or bridge that brings what Bones brings and is making under him.

The only one I can find in a brief search is Sobotka.

If Dumo isn't overpaid, Bonino isn't. Simple as that. You can argue we can't afford it, but we are literally spending almost what Bonino makes to have a 13th forward in Reaves and a #6 D.

 

[Gurglesons]

It must be fun to live in a world where you can sign whoever you want for whatever you want on the basis of "any contract can be moved", and not have to live with the crippling consequences of bad contracts.

Hey, is Ken Holland in here?

If you don't bring in Hunwick, you basically give that money to Bonino as his raise.

Then you trade a second or third for a Schultz or Hainsey.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Have you looked at the comparable contracts? Name me a center that isn't on an ELC or bridge that brings what Bones brings and is making under him.

The only one I can find in a brief search is Sobotka.

Matt Cullen. It's almost like he'd be a guy worth waiting for at ~1 mil per plus bonuses.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If you don't bring in Hunwick, you basically give that money to Bonino as his raise.

Then you trade a second or third for a Schultz or Hainsey.

And then we have less certainty on defense and big money and term for a mid-roster player with warts. No thanks.

 

[Gurglesons]

Matt Cullen. It's almost like he'd be a guy worth waiting for at ~1 mil per plus bonuses.

Matt Cullen averaged 14 minutes a season here. Try again.

 

[Gurglesons]

And then we have less certainty on defense and big money and term for a mid-roster player with warts. No thanks.

4 mil is not big money for a center that puts up around 40pts a season regardless of who he is playing with.

Like Nashville is the best cap manager in the league. You can argue we can't afford to pay that for our 3C, but then you should be arguing against the Hunwick, Hags, and Dumo contracts as well.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Have you looked at the comparable contracts? Name me a center that isn't on an ELC or bridge that brings what Bones brings and is making under him.

The only one I can find in a brief search is Sobotka.

Derek Ryan
Backlund
Sobotka
Staal
Cullen
Janrkrok (he brings less, but he also costs half the price of Bonino, so I'm going to include him here)
Henrique
Cizikas
Smith
Berglund
Namestnikov (similar to Jarnkrok)
Bozak costs about the same, but he's a lot better
Haula
Eakin

That wasn't that difficult. I count anyone who can put up 35+ points while playing at least okay defensive minutes to be acceptable here.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Matt Cullen averaged 14 minutes a season here. Try again.

Cullen was also much better on faceoffs and much more productive relative to those minutes. If you're looking for an exact analogy for a player, you won't find one. But there are better players, players who provide better value for money, and comparable players who don't require such a large commitment on money and term.

 

[Ogrezilla]

4 mil is not big money for a center that puts up around 40pts a season regardless of who he is playing with.

Like Nashville is the best cap manager in the league. You can argue we can't afford to pay that for our 3C, but then you should be arguing against the Hunwick, Hags, and Dumo contracts as well.

The 4 mil isn't what kills it for me, it's the 4 years to go with it.

 

[JRS91]

What's the news on Zaripov?

 

[Jenkins]

Have you looked at the comparable contracts? Name me a center that isn't on an ELC or bridge that brings what Bones brings and is making under him.

The only one I can find in a brief search is Sobotka.

If Dumo isn't overpaid, Bonino isn't. Simple as that. You can argue we can't afford it, but we are literally spending almost what Bonino makes to have a 13th forward in Reaves and a #6 D.

It's not as simple as that. Dumo isn't overpaid and is a better player.

Bonino isn't worth a 4 yr 4+ mil contract. It's not a slight overpayment it's significant. That's where it should end.

So you find someone else. We don't need to replace Bonino's exact production because we'll still be one of the highest scoring teams in the league. We will be able to find someone cheaper than Bonino who can be as effective.

Even if it's a slight drop off in production but then again depending on circumstances the 3C coming in has a good chance of having a career year coming to this club.

 

[ColePens]

Didn't the Finals illustrate what happens when you have a really bad third pairing?

Not just this year, but last year as well. San Jose's bottom pairing got feasted on badly by the Pens.

No. I think it illustrates what happens when you stack up your offense and have your offensive stars go wild.

Nashville lost because their offense couldn't touch ours and Rinne imploded in Pitt.

I also think this you should remember the series. We basically blew game 1 - 4 and should've been down in Game 1. Then in Game 6 we got another BS call
and won by essentially one goal.

This is... asinine at best, pixiesfanyo. Fraction Jackson and StK are 100% right here and you claim the Pens didn't feast on that bottom d-pair? That bottom d-pairing, especially in Nashville, was bruuutal and got worked. They could barely put them out against us because they know we would own them with our depth.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Just to go into further detail:

Backlund: $3.5 million AAV, 53 points in 81 games with 63.7% defensive zone starts
Sobotka: $3.5 million AAV, 33 points in 61 games with 50% defensive zone starts in his last full season
Staal: $3.5 million AAV, 65 points in 82 games with 50% defensive zone starts
Cullen: $1 million AAV, 31 points in 72 games with 64.2% defensive zone starts
Jarnkrok: $2 million AAV, 31 points in 81 games with 54.7% defensive zone starts
Henrique: $4 million AAV, 40 points in 80 games with 51.6% defensive zone starts (he had 50 points last year too)
Cizikas: $3.35 million AAV, 25 points in 59 games with 67.4% defensive zone starts
Smith: $3.25 million AAV, 32 points in 74 games with 51% defensive zone starts (he was at 36 points in 81 games with 58.4% defensive zone starts in 2015-2016)
Berglund: $3.85 million AAV, 34 points in 82 games with 58.5% defensive zone starts
Namestnikov: $1.95 million AAV, 35 points in 80 games with 46.9% defensive zone starts in 2015-2016
Bozak: $4.2 million AAV, 55 points in 78 games with 47.5% defensive zone starts
Haula: $2.75 million AAV, 34 points in 76 games with 64.7% defensive zone starts in 2015-2016
Eakin: $3.85 million AAV, 35 points in 82 games with 52.6% defensive zone starts in 2015-2016

With arbitrarily not including young players on ELCs or bridge deals, you can still come up with a lot of guys who put up similar to better numbers than Bonino in defensive roles while making less money. And here are some comparables for Dumoulin:

Larsson: $4.167 million AAV, 19 points in 79 games last year
Hjalmarsson: $4 million AAV, 18 points in 73 games last year
Pesce: $4.025 million AAV, 20 points in 82 games last year
Despres: $3.7 million AAV, 23 points in 75 games in the year he signed that deal (cap was also lower at that time)
Ekholm: $3.75 million AAV, 18 points in 80 games the year before he signed that deal (signed it in October of 2015)

Dumoulin isn't overpaid. He's just flat out not.

 

[ColePens]

It's not as simple as that. Dumo isn't overpaid and is a better player.

So you find someone else. We don't need to replace Bonino's exact production because we'll still be one of the highest scoring teams in the league. We will be able to find someone cheaper than Bonino who can be as effective.

Even if it's a slight drop off in production but then again depending on circumstances the 3C coming in has a good chance of having a career year coming to this club.

This is the art of the salary cap era. I cannot believe people don't see it. I would love Bones to be on this team, but within that 4 years, Dumo/Sheary/Guentzel/Hornqvist/etc. all need money to be kept. So at that point, you need to shake hands and move on from guys like Bones and hope more youth/less expensive contracts can move on in.

It's the salary cap world. You can't keep everyone so you have to be picky with who you do keep or else you end up in a bad situation. I'd rather JR focus on all the youth. I love the Sheary deal. I love the Dumo deal. I wish Schultz deal was a bit different, but oh well. Those are the guys who should have been given deals and we need the Sprongs/ZARs of the world to fill in. And like you said, we need a 3C that can do a similar job (not exact same) for about half of Bones 4m.

In a perfect world, we have Fleury as our backup instead of Niemi and we have guys like Bones around. But those are luxuries that you cannot have in the salary cap world. And if it weren't a salary cap world, we wouldn't have those luxuries anyway.

 

[Gurglesons]

Just to go into further detail:

Backlund: $3.5 million AAV, 53 points in 81 games with 63.7% defensive zone starts
Sobotka: $3.5 million AAV, 33 points in 61 games with 50% defensive zone starts in his last full season
Staal: $3.5 million AAV, 65 points in 82 games with 50% defensive zone starts
Cullen: $1 million AAV, 31 points in 72 games with 64.2% defensive zone starts
Jarnkrok: $2 million AAV, 31 points in 81 games with 54.7% defensive zone starts
Henrique: $4 million AAV, 40 points in 80 games with 51.6% defensive zone starts (he had 50 points last year too)
Cizikas: $3.35 million AAV, 25 points in 59 games with 67.4% defensive zone starts
Smith: $3.25 million AAV, 32 points in 74 games with 51% defensive zone starts (he was at 36 points in 81 games with 58.4% defensive zone starts in 2015-2016)
Berglund: $3.85 million AAV, 34 points in 82 games with 58.5% defensive zone starts
Namestnikov: $1.95 million AAV, 35 points in 80 games with 46.9% defensive zone starts in 2015-2016
Bozak: $4.2 million AAV, 55 points in 78 games with 47.5% defensive zone starts
Haula: $2.75 million AAV, 34 points in 76 games with 64.7% defensive zone starts in 2015-2016
Eakin: $3.85 million AAV, 35 points in 82 games with 52.6% defensive zone starts in 2015-2016

With arbitrarily not including young players on ELCs or bridge deals, you can still come up with a lot of guys who put up similar to better numbers than Bonino in defensive roles while making less money. And here are some comparables for Dumoulin:

Larsson: $4.167 million AAV, 19 points in 79 games last year
Hjalmarsson: $4 million AAV, 18 points in 73 games last year
Pesce: $4.025 million AAV, 20 points in 82 games last year
Despres: $3.7 million AAV, 23 points in 75 games in the year he signed that deal (cap was also lower at that time)
Ekholm: $3.75 million AAV, 18 points in 80 games the year before he signed that deal (signed it in October of 2015)

Dumoulin isn't overpaid. He's just flat out not.

Haula, Smith, Sobotka, Backland Jarnkrok I can all subscribe to. The other players on that list either are like Cizakasis and don't have the same offensive production or have the same kind of risks or warts as Bonino.

I'd also argue the majority of those players were either costly trades, home grown or UFA signings. So, the point still stands I'd rather sign Bonino.

In terms of those D, I take every single one of them over Dumo every day of the week. That's a who's who of premium defensive defensemen that can chip in points.

Hammer had twice as many goals in his career versus Dumo at 25.

Ekholm had seven goals the year he signed.

Larsson was a Maatta type deal in hopes he would produce more.

If you want to bring up similar players to Dumo, I'd argue Tanev is a real good comparison. Thing is Tanev has done it on one of the ********* teams in the league. I mean, look at Cole's point bumps playing with Schultz, why is Dumo so bad in that regard?

 

[billybudd]

This is the art of the salary cap era. I cannot believe people don't see it. I would love Bones to be on this team, but within that 4 years, Dumo/Sheary/Guentzel/Hornqvist/etc. all need money to be kept. So at that point, you need to shake hands and move on from guys like Bones and hope more youth/less expensive contracts can move on in.

It's the salary cap world. You can't keep everyone so you have to be picky with who you do keep or else you end up in a bad situation. I'd rather JR focus on all the youth. I love the Sheary deal. I love the Dumo deal. I wish Schultz deal was a bit different, but oh well. Those are the guys who should have been given deals and we need the Sprongs/ZARs of the world to fill in. And like you said, we need a 3C that can do a similar job (not exact same) for about half of Bones 4m.

In a perfect world, we have Fleury as our backup instead of Niemi and we have guys like Bones around. But those are luxuries that you cannot have in the salary cap world. And if it weren't a salary cap world, we wouldn't have those luxuries anyway.

It's strange. Even two years ago, the idea of moving on from a guy like Bones would have been entirely uncontroversial. I'm sure I could find a thousand posts saying something like "Sutter's okay for what he makes, but when his contract's up, he won't be and what does that do to ____'s extension and blah, blah, blah." People said that stuff about Jordan Staal, too.

Bones is somewhere between them as players, but if the reasoning applies to both end-points, I don't know why the center would be immune to it.

 

[Gurglesons]

This is... asinine at best, pixiesfanyo. Fraction Jackson and StK are 100% right here and you claim the Pens didn't feast on that bottom d-pair? That bottom d-pairing, especially in Nashville, was bruuutal and got worked. They could barely put them out against us because they know we would own them with our depth.

Or they just had Subban, Josi, Ekholm and Ellis, so why would you play anybody else?

Do you think the Pens won the Nashville series based on our bottom pairing being better than the Preds? Do you think our defense had anything to do with that series outside of Schultz's cannon in game 5?

In terms of what the original post was about.

I'll use the Bonino argument. You can address that at the trade deadline with a core of Letang, Maatta, Schultz, Dumo, and Cole.

 

[Gurglesons]

This is the art of the salary cap era. I cannot believe people don't see it. I would love Bones to be on this team, but within that 4 years, Dumo/Sheary/Guentzel/Hornqvist/etc. all need money to be kept. So at that point, you need to shake hands and move on from guys like Bones and hope more youth/less expensive contracts can move on in.

It's the salary cap world. You can't keep everyone so you have to be picky with who you do keep or else you end up in a bad situation. I'd rather JR focus on all the youth. I love the Sheary deal. I love the Dumo deal. I wish Schultz deal was a bit different, but oh well. Those are the guys who should have been given deals and we need the Sprongs/ZARs of the world to fill in. And like you said, we need a 3C that can do a similar job (not exact same) for about half of Bones 4m.

In a perfect world, we have Fleury as our backup instead of Niemi and we have guys like Bones around. But those are luxuries that you cannot have in the salary cap world. And if it weren't a salary cap world, we wouldn't have those luxuries anyway.

That is a fine argument.

The issue is we are paying 3 million for Reaves and Hunwick and that is what most of us are critical of. Especially when you look at our center depth. I want to win next year or the year after. Bonino helps me do that more than Hunwick or Reaves.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Haula, Smith, Sobotka, Backland Jarnkrok I can all subscribe to. The other players on that list either are like Cizakasis and don't have the same offensive production or have the same kind of risks or warts as Bonino.

I'd also argue the majority of those players were either costly trades, home grown or UFA signings. So, the point still stands I'd rather sign Bonino.

The difference in production from Cizikas to Bonino is 5 points. What kind of risks or warts does someone like Henrique have?

In terms of those D, I take every single one of them over Dumo every day of the week. That's a who's who of premium defensive defensemen that can chip in points.

Hammer had twice as many goals in his career versus Dumo at 25.

Ekholm had seven goals the year he signed.

Larsson was a Maatta type deal in hopes he would produce more.

Well you're just criminally underrating Dumoulin then. Did you just forget he was a top pair defenseman for 2 cup runs in a row, one without Letang? Why is all that matters goals now for some reason? That's your only leg to stand on to discredit Dumoulin, which is nonsensical. It's like saying a goal scorer sucks because he doesn't get a lot of assists. Why are the defensemen I listed "premium defensemen who can chip in points" when Dumoulin isn't one of those guys? The difference in points between them are within single digits.

At this point, you're either just grasping at straws to defend your asinine claims or you just don't watch Dumoulin. I can't tell which one it is.

If you want to bring up similar players to Dumo, I'd argue Tanev is a real good comparison. Thing is Tanev has done it on one of the ********* teams in the league. I mean, look at Cole's point bumps playing with Schultz, why is Dumo so bad in that regard?

Tanev is better than guys like Larsson though.

That is a fine argument.

The issue is we are paying 3 million for Reaves and Hunwick and that is what most of us are critical of. Especially when you look at our center depth. I want to win next year or the year after. Bonino helps me do that more than Hunwick or Reaves.

And again, for the millionth time, Hunwick and Reaves had no impact on the Penguins bringing in a center. Especially not Reaves. Hunwick I can at least get because you can argue whether Ruhwedel would have been better for that role, but bringing up Reaves is just complaining to complain. He costs marginally more than the non NHLer that we traded for him.

 

[Jenkins]

Or they just had Subban, Josi, Ekholm and Ellis, so why would you play anybody else?

Do you think the Pens won the Nashville series based on our bottom pairing being better than the Preds? Do you think our defense had anything to do with that series outside of Schultz's cannon in game 5?

In terms of what the original post was about.

I'll use the Bonino argument. You can address that at the trade deadline with a core of Letang, Maatta, Schultz, Dumo, and Cole.

Nashville didn't score in the last two games so I would say that would suggest it had something to do with that. I mean really why would you even say that.

EDIT: Nashville couldn't score for the last 123 minutes of the Stanley Cup finals! That's good defense.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Reading these arguments even closer makes me even more irritated I'm listening to this argument. Like Hjalmarsson is better than Dumoulin because Hjalmarsson from ages 20-25 (which would have been 2007-2008 to 2012-2013) had more goals than Dumoulin has so far? What the hell kind of **** logic is that? Why are player goal totals suddenly the criteria to judge defensive defensemen who can move the puck and skate? That's just finding a flaw in Dumoulin's game and clinging to it as evidence he's not good. Like why would you take Despres, who had 1 season of playing like a top pair defenseman (more accurately, like 20 games with the Ducks to end that season), over Dumoulin, who was a top pair defenseman for 2 straight cup runs? Like I can't even begin to understand the asinine claims in here on Dumoulin.

This is just a case of an argument being so bad that it's actually making me angry. Probably because I've wasted so much time discussing things if you think only looking at goal totals to judge defensive defensemen makes even a lick of sense.

 

[Peat]

Re On it costing no assets to acquire Bonino

If you're giving up on defensive depth to keep Bonino, you will be spending to acquire that depth at the trade deadline. And given you're looking for guys who can play top 4 and possibly/probably paying for retention, it won't be cheap.

Swings and roundabouts.

Half the problem with Bonino is that people assume he's going to remain a positive value asset at 4 mil per. That's anything but guaranteed, given his shortcomings. He's pretty much the poster boy for that mid-roster player you don't want to be taking up a lot of cap space with - slow player in a league getting faster every year, with unremarkable production beside an elite forward.

People are also discounting Reaves entirely, but he was an element that the org felt they needed going into next season with all the unanswered abuse our stars were taking. Turning the other cheek is noble, but if Sid or Geno goes out because of targeted attempts to injure from the likes of Niskanen last year, everything else is moot. We had to try something because the league clearly won't. I'd be shocked to see Staal and Dubinsky types continue their repeated cheap shots shift-after-shift next year.

Ah c'mon now. The argument against Reaves has nothing to do with nobility and everything to do with a belief that there's no point trying something that doesn't work. Of course people who don't believe in deterrence are discounting Reaves entirely.

I'll wait and see how it goes, but I'm not a big fan of "We must do something and this is something".

Like I said, I own a Dumo jersey. But, he is quite clearly making above what he should. He has 5 goals and less than 50 points in two hundred games playing on what has been an offensive juggernaut and playing huge minutes with the most prolific D-man on that team who has been almost a ppg.

Six months ago I'd have agreed with you but then it came to my attention that defensive dmen are getting paid. And the points are kinda irrelevant to what they get paid.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't think Reaves does anything to change the cheap shots Crosby and Malkin take, but I'm fine with the trade because the Penguins were kinda soft, Reaves is fast enough where he'd be able to fit in the Penguins system and Reaves is a better player than the likes of Archibald and Sundqvist. People expecting Reaves to lessen cheap shots on Crosby and Malkin are going to be disappointed. What difference Reaves is going to make is that after Crosby and Malkin take a shot from a guy like Dubinsky, Reaves is going to go after Dubinsky.

 

[Jenkins]

I don't think Reaves does anything to change the cheap shots Crosby and Malkin take, but I'm fine with the trade because the Penguins were kinda soft, Reaves is fast enough where he'd be able to fit in the Penguins system and Reaves is a better player than the likes of Archibald and Sundqvist. People expecting Reaves to lessen cheap shots on Crosby and Malkin are going to be disappointed. What difference Reaves is going to make is that after Crosby and Malkin take a shot from a guy like Dubinsky, Reaves is going to go after Dubinsky.

It doesn't change anything unless the opposition coaches tell his players to stop that kind of thing (which they won't).

For JR it's more of a retaliation thing since the league has trouble disciplining these acts so his thinking is at least Reaves will do some of that. I don't necessarily agree with it but Reaves is still a good 4th line player so it doesn't hurt us.

JR made some comments throughout the playoffs about this kind of thing. I think he was hoping the NHL would listen and do something about it but they didn't so JR targeted Reaves.