Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Trust me... nothing has changed.

[Ogrezilla]

Well, what exactly is your point to responding to me calling out Sid the Kidney then?

Because we were talking about how Bonino disappears from October - February which is factually untrue. He has hit 20pts by the end of January in all of the last four seasons outside of 15-16. We all know how those first couple months went.

He struggled in 16-17 when Sullivan used him like Bylsma used Adams. Kind of hard to produce when you are consistently on the other end of the ice and leading forwards in PK time. He still produced at around a .46ppg clip which is pretty impressive unless you subscribe to the groupthink around here.

I was responding to this part

I guarantee at best our Bonino replacement produces like that.

I actually agree that Bones is being shortchanged by a lot of folks around here for what he did the last two years.

My point is that we should be targeting someone that can do about what Bones did for a similar lowish cost, or someone better if they are going to cost more than that.

 

[Peat]

So, Komarov spent the majority of the season on Kadri's wing so I'd love to see your list of production from "centers".

Bonino also had a 43 - 57% split in terms of offensive and defensive zone starts.

Bonino also led our team in PK time behind Ian Cole almost playing 20 more minutes total over the season above our next player Cullen.

You want to go into this further? Because I would argue that playing behind Crosby and Malkin made Cullen and Bonino's jobs even harder the last two years and the fact that they both broke around 30 puts both in 2015-16 and 2016-17 shows how hard they are going to be to replace.

http://www.nhl.com/stats - Knock yourself out. I never claimed that all the players listed as C by the NHL were in fact Cs though. The majority are but not all.

And sure, why not. Its my busiest day at work so I can't do too much detail but I'd point out that Bonino has a 100 minute plus of PP time in those months that I'd be very surprised if most of the other guys on 23 points had. Or if they had significantly better zone starts than the 45% Bonino had for that time period. Or if a lot of them weren't chalking up lots of PK time in that time period as well (FYI, Cullen is 47 seconds behind Bonino despite playing 5 less games from Nov-Feb).

Or, in fact, digging further reveals anything other than Bonino played like a standard defensively orientated bottom 6 C with some offensive production for that time period, but without being that defensively great either. Which shouldn't be hard to replace.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Well, what exactly is your point to responding to me calling out Sid the Kidney then?

Because we were talking about how Bonino disappears from October - February which is factually untrue. He has hit 20pts by the end of January in all of the last four seasons outside of 15-16. We all know how those first couple months went.

He struggled in 16-17 when Sullivan used him like Bylsma used Adams. Kind of hard to produce when you are consistently on the other end of the ice and leading forwards in PK time. He still produced at around a .46ppg clip which is pretty impressive unless you subscribe to the groupthink around here.

at "calling me out". You didn't even disprove what I said.

23 points in 60 games is not proving he didn't disappear from October to February, anymore than saying someone is wrong for saying Craig Adams didn't produce in 2014 by countering with "You're wrong! He scored 18 points that season, so clearly you're wrong because he did produce 18 points!".

But maybe that's where we differ. A guy who only produces 23 points in 60 games, while playing next to a player of Kessel's caliber for a lot of that time, and getting 16+ minutes a night, isn't "producing" to me. It's below what should be expected of someone in that situation. You, apparently, believe there is nothing wrong with that level of production.

In any case, agree to disagree since clearly our views on what is "productive" differs tremendously.

 

[mpp9]

I'd sign Zaripov just to see if he can work with 71. If he does, you've created more depth to trade from. And as great as our winger situation is, 71 could still use someone who plays his style of game. Phil, PH and Sheary don't. Guentzel could but he's with 87 it seems. Which leaves Hagelin and Wilson for now until Sprong's ready. Not like we're too good to sign another guy who can play both wings.

 

[BlackAndGold87]

If Zaripov is signed someone is getting traded.

Can see Wilson being on the move.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I'd sign Zaripov just to see if he can work with 71. If he does, you've created more depth to trade from. And as great as our winger situation is, 71 could still use someone who plays his style of game. Phil, PH and Sheary don't. Guentzel could but he's with 87 it seems. Which leaves Hagelin and Wilson for now until Sprong's ready. Not like we're too good to sign another guy who can play both wings.

He's a 36 year old khl player who weighs less than Sheary and has had declining production in his last three seasons. I wouldn't bet on him doing anything and they've kind of got a massive unknown at 3C so I'd be cautious with the cap, who might have to go through waivers to try him and contracts signed. And does anyone even know if Zaripov plays Malkin's style?

 

[Jacob]

What the hell is this Zaripov BS? Guy's almost 40. Very very hard pass.

 

[Gurglesons]

at "calling me out". You didn't even disprove what I said.

23 points in 60 games is not proving he didn't disappear from October to February, anymore than saying someone is wrong for saying Craig Adams didn't produce in 2014 by countering with "You're wrong! He scored 18 points that season, so clearly you're wrong because he did produce 18 points!".

But maybe that's where we differ. A guy who only produces 23 points in 60 games, while playing next to a player of Kessel's caliber for a lot of that time, and getting 16+ minutes a night, isn't "producing" to me. It's below what should be expected of someone in that situation. You, apparently, believe there is nothing wrong with that level of production.

In any case, agree to disagree since clearly our views on what is "productive" differs tremendously.

I think you are going to be tremendously surprised by what happens when they play another player in Bonino's situation.

I looked at Peat's list. Bonino was 73rd amongst "centers" with at least 10 of those ahead of him not being centers.. including Marleau, Eberle, Pavs, Granlund, Gagner, Schenn, etc.

So Bones and his "mediocre" point spread essentially put him in the range of a 2nd line center while taking pretty much the majority of our defensive draws with Cullen and eating the most PK time out of any forward.

You're going to be in for a real shock this season in terms of our 3rd line center's production. Unless of course, they have to double shift Crosby because they didn't adequately fill out our bottom six for defensive starts.

I forgot though, because Bones only put up .48ppg during half of the season and then went up to around .60ppg for the last half he suddenly only shows up during the run up to the playoffs. Which is a terrible thing for a player to do.

 

[Peat]

I think you are going to be tremendously surprised by what happens when they play another player in Bonino's situation.

I looked at Peat's list. Bonino was 73rd amongst "centers" with at least 10 of those ahead of him not being centers.. including Marleau, Eberle, Pavs, Granlund, Gagner, Schenn, etc.

So Bones and his "mediocre" point spread essentially put him in the range of a 2nd line center while taking pretty much the majority of our defensive draws with Cullen and eating the most PK time out of any forward.

You're going to be in for a real shock this season in terms of our 3rd line center's production. Unless of course, they have to double shift Crosby because they didn't adequately fill out our bottom six for defensive starts.

He is not 73rd in the time period being talked about. Talking about whole season production when the debate is clearly about October-February is utterly disingenuous.

 

[canadianguy77]

If we somehow swindled Duchene out of Colorado for peanuts, we'd still more than likely not win another championship next season.

I don't get where these absurd expectations are coming from. No matter who fills the 3C role next season, the smart money is that our guys don't 3-peat.

Like Jesus, can't we just take the summer to enjoy something that hasn't been done in 20 years?

We're a playoff team with someone Joe Vitale as our 3C barring catastrophic injuries to all of our "big guns." That's all anyone who is a fan should expect.

Fan-bases like Washington expect cups. We shouldn't. We've had better teams than our last Cup-winning one not win it all. Numerous times.

I don't understand how this argument has gone on so long. We'll see how things shake out some time in 2018. Until then, take a pill and watch it all unfold. At worst, our team will make the playoffs and we can still be proud of what Sid, Geno and co have accomplished over the last 2 years.

 

[Gurglesons]

He is not 73rd in the time period being talked about. Talking about whole season production when the debate is clearly about October-February is utterly disingenuous.

He is 80th with around ten players that play wing in front of him. So firmly in the upper half of centers likely playing third line minutes when you guys are criticizing him of "not producing".

 

[Peat]

He is 80th with around ten players that play wing in front of him. So firmly in the upper half of centers likely playing third line minutes when you guys are criticizing him of "not producing".

I'm looking at it right now and October to end of February (or 1st day of March, no difference) he is 93rd with 23 points. 91st is the highest player with equal points.

He's 80th if you go End of March, but that's not the period under discussion.


ETA: Look, if you want a discussion about Bonino's whole record as a Pen, start one, why not.

But this is an argument about Bonino from season start to trade deadline because the original argument was about the risks we'd be running with weaker centre depth at the start of the season being increased. If that's not interesting to you, fair enough, but please stop tracking in Bonino's record from other parts of the season as its utterly irrelevant.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'm looking at it right now and October to end of February (or 1st day of March, no difference) he is 93rd with 23 points. 91st is the highest player with equal points.

He's 80th if you go End of March, but that's not the period under discussion.

So assuming there are at least 3 guys ahead of him on that list who don't actually play center, his bad stretch puts him at the mid to low end of 3Cs offensively. That seems about right.

 

[madinsomniac]

I think you are going to be tremendously surprised by what happens when they play another player in Bonino's situation.

I looked at Peat's list. Bonino was 73rd amongst "centers" with at least 10 of those ahead of him not being centers.. including Marleau, Eberle, Pavs, Granlund, Gagner, Schenn, etc.

So Bones and his "mediocre" point spread essentially put him in the range of a 2nd line center while taking pretty much the majority of our defensive draws with Cullen and eating the most PK time out of any forward.

You're going to be in for a real shock this season in terms of our 3rd line center's production. Unless of course, they have to double shift Crosby because they didn't adequately fill out our bottom six for defensive starts.

I forgot though, because Bones only put up .48ppg during half of the season and then went up to around .60ppg for the last half he suddenly only shows up during the run up to the playoffs. Which is a terrible thing for a player to do.

The problem with that is while 10 weren't centers, there were also alot of productive guys who got less playing time than him... so the number is right.. bonino is and was an average to above average 3c and his defensive numbers got better here in the role we asked... as will whomever we give that role,

This isn't rocket science and Bonino wasn't what drove our depth scoring..., it was having better wingers on the bottom 6 than ever before and higher end ones in the top Six...

Staal was more important to the 09 win than bonino was to the past two wins... not a knock, judt how it was...heck we won the last with bonino out with a broken leg....

3 c isn't as important as 1c, 2c, top 4 d, G or having legitimate top 6 wingers... its like 10th to 12th on the priorities list... maybe 13th counting coaching... its getting boring recirculating this debate

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm looking at it right now and October to end of February (or 1st day of March, no difference) he is 93rd with 23 points. 91st is the highest player with equal points.

He's 80th if you go End of March, but that's not the period under discussion.

I was going to Feb 1st.

Going to March 1st.

I looked at 70 - 90 and didn't even bother to look further. Here are some listed "centers" Strome, Hyman, Cammalleri, Toffoli, Jenner, Komarov, Fabbri, Granlund, Perreault. Just with those and not looking into usage he is already at 86.

Eberle, Gagner, Marscheault, Marleau, Coyle, Nylander, Marner, Schenn, Rakell, Shore, Konecky. Look he is at 76!

That isn't even including players like Pavs and Drai who play wing half the time.

 

[Ogrezilla]

also, he was 29th from March 1st to the end of the season for centers. So his range is from a mid-low 3C to a mid-low 1C based on just production numbers. And I'm sure that includes a couple wings. He then dropped back to first 2/3 of the season production these playoffs. I get that this isn't the discussion, just pointing it out.

 

[Peat]

So assuming there are at least 3 guys ahead of him on that list who don't actually play center, his bad stretch puts him at the mid to low end of 3Cs offensively. That seems about right.

Yup. My guess is there's a lot more than 3 and he'd be a bit below average for a 3C if someone created a list for the guys who actually created centre, rather than the NHL's weird definitions.

Some might call it overly harsh to go that disappearing/did not produce. Could be right. The fact he had Phil Kessel with him for a lot of it weighs heavily on my mind.

edit: Its certainly disappearing by the standards of what he could do though, as you've pointed out with his March to end of season numbers.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yup. My guess is there's a lot more than 3 and he'd be a bit below average for a 3C if someone created a list for the guys who actually created centre, rather than the NHL's weird definitions.

Some might call it overly harsh to go that disappearing/did not produce. Could be right. The fact he had Phil Kessel with him for a lot of it weighs heavily on my mind.

edit: Its certainly disappearing by the standards of what he could do though, as you've pointed out with his March to end of season numbers.

He's wildly inconsistent. I think most guys who produce in that middle of the pack range are going to be inconsistent, but he's got to be a fairly extreme case of it. If you break it down by months, he's got 3 months (Oct, Jan, Feb) where he is at 4th line level production with around .25 ppg even when getting 2 minutes of PP time a night. He actually had a decent Nov (83rd) and Dec (65th). Then you go to March/April and he's a top line player apparently

 

[Gurglesons]

Yup. My guess is there's a lot more than 3 and he'd be a bit below average for a 3C if someone created a list for the guys who actually created centre, rather than the NHL's weird definitions.

Some might call it overly harsh to go that disappearing/did not produce. Could be right. The fact he had Phil Kessel with him for a lot of it weighs heavily on my mind.

edit: Its certainly disappearing by the standards of what he could do though, as you've pointed out with his March to end of season numbers.

Keep moving the mark. He produced like a typical third line center while playing the most defensive minutes on our team when you said he "disappeared".

Then he produced like a solid second line center at the end of the season when we were gearing up for the playoffs. Something he is criticized for which is beyond me.

 

[Gurglesons]

He's wildly inconsistent. I think most guys who produce in that middle of the pack range are going to be inconsistent, but he's got to be a fairly extreme case of it. If you break it down by months, he's got 3 months (Oct, Jan, Feb) where he is at 4th line level production with around .25 ppg even when getting 2 minutes of PP time a night. He actually had a decent Nov (83rd) and Dec (65th). Then you go to March/April and he's a top line player apparently

"Wildly inconsistent" but has put up around 40 pts every season he has been healthy since 2013-14 when he broke into the league.

Even in 2015-16 if he played a healthy season he projects as a 37 pt player.

Maybe he is just a ****ing third line center. Jesus. If he was consistent, he'd be a Bryan Little type.

I'm honestly curious what you guys expect from a third line center.

 

[Peat]

He's wildly inconsistent. I think most guys who produce in that middle of the pack range are going to be inconsistent, but he's got to be a fairly extreme case of it. If you break it down by months, he's got 3 months (Oct, Jan, Feb) where he is at 4th line level production with around .25 ppg even when getting 2 minutes of PP time a night. He actually had a decent Nov (83rd) and Dec (65th). Then you go to March/April and he's a top line player apparently

It would be interesting to take a look at all those middle order guys and see just how inconsistent he is compared to them; it looks extreme but maybe it turns out it isn't.

If Nashville can somehow get consistency from him, Rutherford will look very stupid for not matching the offer, rightly or wrongly.

 

[Gurglesons]

If Nashville can somehow get consistency from him, Rutherford will look very stupid for not matching the offer, rightly or wrongly.

I doubt it. Bonino will never be given the opportunity to play the type of minutes he will likely play in Nash versus here.

I honestly see no issue with letting Bonino go. Just let's not sit around and act like he wasn't one of the better options as a 3C in the league the last two season.

 

[Ogrezilla]

"Wildly inconsistent" but has put up around 40 pts every season he has been healthy since 2013-14 when he broke into the league.

Even in 2015-16 if he played a healthy season he projects as a 37 pt player.

Maybe I'm wrong and his level of inconsistency is typical. But I don't usually see guys ranging between top line production and 4th line production like he does. He had a month at.22 ppg in Oct, two decent months, and then 2 months at .27 ppg for 133rd. And then tied for 29th with Auston Matthews in March/April (combining because he only played 4 games in April). Followed by .33 ppg in the playoffs.

Like I said, maybe I'm wrong and it's common for guys to have that sort of variation. I know mid level scorers are going to be streaky. But that just seems extreme to me.

Maybe he is just a ****ing third line center. Jesus. If he was consistent, he'd be a Bryan Little type.

Depending where he settled in. Little was 20th on the season for center ppg. Even in his best stretch, Bonino was a tenth of a point per game behind Little's full season, and .19 ppg behind Little's play in that same stretch. Bones also had significant chunks of last season where he was more of a Jayson Megna type.

If he was consistently at his season total average, he'd be with guys like Henrique, Letestu, and Granlund. Which is solid company in it's own right, but it's not Bryan Little.

I'm honestly curious what you guys expect from a third line center.

Dude you need to pay more attention. I've said a few times I like Bonino and I think he was good for us.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I doubt it. Bonino will never be given the opportunity to play the type of minutes he will likely play in Nash versus here.

I honestly see no issue with letting Bonino go. Just let's not sit around and act like he wasn't one of the better options as a 3C in the league the last two season.

For 1.9M he's deffo one of the better options.
Now @ 4.1, not so much.

 

[Ogrezilla]

For 1.9M he's deffo one of the better options.
Now @ 4.1, not so much.

this is it.