Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Trust me... nothing has changed.

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm just saying that everyone worried about who will produce early in the season if Malkin or Crosby gets hurt are ignoring the fact Bonino never produced during his two years as a Pen until March. So he wouldn't solve that issue, either.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I dont think sundqvist was anything special but he was a center with NHL experience which is more than can be said for most of these low grade prospects people seem to think will crack the line up. I dont think a single one of those guys with the exception of maybe ZAR has much of a chance of being better than a 4c in their career.

Rowney and McKegg both have more NHL experience than Sundqvist. If guys like Johnson, Blueger and Dea are "low grade prospects", then Sundqvist is also a "low grade prospect". What makes Sundqvist a better prospect than Blueger?

At this point there is/was no internal solution at center. That meant it was all the more pressing Rutherford do something. Sundqvist was a depth option on a team that has none. No big loss but why give that away for Reeves when we are flush on bottom 6 wingers. Not only that downgrade a pick as well. That 600k puts us at 3.9MM within 200k of Bones salary. Maybe with bones signed we approach the Dumo and Sheary deals differently and save a bit more and we can fit it all in.

The Penguins weren't going to bring back Bonino, it wasn't a situation of they couldn't afford him. They just didn't want him back all that much, at least not close to the salary he was going to get. I have a hunch that their offer was something like 3 years at $3 million per. Signing Bonino to the contract he got would have flat out been a bad decision.

Its not major but its a mis-step and it just seemed pointless. I think it deserves criticism unless he pulls something together. Its not a problem that JR wants to wait and see until Sid and or Geno go down and were watching a center group made up of something like...

Guentzel
Rowney
Scrub
Scrub

I'm sure we make the playoff I have no doubt. I just think were rolling the dice that the perfect move comes along. Maybe it doesn't and due to injury we under perform. Now the pressure is on JR to make a bad trade at the TDL and who knows what happens or what we give up.

Complaining about what the Penguins center group would be without Crosby and Malkin is as dumb as complaining about what the Penguins goaltending situation would be like if Murray and Jarry got hurt. The center group was guaranteed to be bad without Crosby and Malkin, that's what happens when you lose a combined $19.2 million in 2 players. Bonino wouldn't have changed that.

 

[Peat]

If Sid or Geno get injured early in the season this would have been a 1-line team even if they re-signed Bonino since Bonino's invisible offensively until around March.

As we saw last season when Sid was injured. It was Cullen picking up the slack as a top 9 centre. Cullen's loss is the one that hurts more.



As for the whole Sundqvist thing... yeah, I don't look at the guys we've got in the AHL and feel a burning desire to have him back. I'm not saying the AHL guys are great. Just Sundqvist isn't either. The only thing he's got on them is half a season's NHL experience (doesn't even have that on McKegg) and that doesn't come higher than actual ability.

Throw in the fact that he's probably getting claimed on waivers if he has to pass between NHL and AHL and, yeah, I think people are concentrating too much on him being a C and too little on his position in the organisation. Arguably Rutherford's actually done quite well to get something for a player who was otherwise going elsewhere for free in not that long.

I wish we'd used the package to hunt for a centre rather than Reaves though.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Bones had more than half of his points last year between October and February?

I mean, context? He scored 14 points in only 20 games to end the season, while scoring 23 points in the first 60 games prior to that. One is a 31 point pace (his performance prior to March), the other is 57 point pace (final 20 games).

I shouldn't need to explain why you can't just look at raw totals in 60 games versus raw totals in 20 games to determine which stretch of games he was much more productive in.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Another thing you have to realize is that Rutherford is usually pretty good at not keeping players way past their expiration dates. He doesn't seem to just cling on to players to keep them around here, which has worked out well so far. If a player isn't working here, he's not hesitant to move them out, even if he really wanted them. Both Spaling and Perron can be applied to this, JR apparently wanted both of them but didn't hesitate to move them when they weren't working here. So why should we question his judgement on Sundqvist? He's been mostly correct on when to get rid of players, I think only Despres is the exception to this rule (and that ended up being correct due to concussion issues that Despres had).

 

[Gurglesons]

I mean, context? He scored 14 points in only 20 games to end the season, while scoring 23 points in the first 60 games prior to that. One is a 31 point pace (his performance prior to March), the other is 57 point pace (final 20 games).

I shouldn't need to explain why you can't just look at raw totals in 60 games versus raw totals in 20 games to determine which stretch of games he was much more productive in.

You asked a yes or no question about Bonino. The answer to your question is yes.

Keep moving the mark though.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Looking through all of the players JR has traded with the Penguins, who all has done better after leaving the Penguins? Despres is the obvious one, but beyond that? Perron had that hot streak that Hagelin also had to end 2016, but he put up around what he did with the Penguins last season with the Blues. Goc and Spaling are out of the NHL. Neal was over a PPG wing in his last season in Pittsburgh, followed that up with 3 seasons of a sub-60 point pace (2 seasons with a sub-50 point pace). Scuderi is out of the NHL at this point, but he also sucked when JR traded him. Bennett didn't hit 20 points last year despite playing in 65 games. Sutter is Sutter, he traded him before he started making a lot more money than he deserved. Plotnikov sucked in the NHL anyway, but he continued to suck and now he's back in the KHL. Harrington can't stick in the NHL and is now on his 3rd team.

You could say the same about letting players walk as free agents too. Comeau was a half PPG player in his season with Pittsburgh, he put up 20 points in 77 games last year (he did have a good 15-16 though). Downie put up a respectable 28 points in 72 games in his season here, he only played in 26 games with the Coyotes after leaving the Penguins before not playing in the NHL again. Paul Martin, you saw what age has done to Paul Martin in the 2016 finals. He let Lovejoy walk after the 2016 cup run, he faceplanted in New Jersey last year.

So with all of that in mind, what sort of reason do we have for questioning JR's decision making skills when it comes to letting players go? Because he's been almost unquestionably perfect when making those decisions. Why should we assume that him letting Bonino and Sundqvist go was the wrong decision? You could also include Daley in that group, because people have been complaining that the Penguins let Daley go and signed Hunwick to replace him.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

You asked a yes or no question about Bonino. The answer to your question is yes.

Keep moving the mark though.

Are you serious with this? I can't even tell at this point if you're actually serious, or if you're just doing it to bait me.

It was clear what my overall point was about Bonino not producing until March. He produced 24 points in 60 games over the first few months of the season. He then produced 14 points in only 20 games in March/April. His production until March was bad. His production only picked up in that final 20 games. How ... is this even debatable?

I'm ... yeah. Anyways.

 

[Gurglesons]

Are you serious with this? I can't even tell at this point if you're actually serious, or if you're just doing it to bait me.

It was clear what my overall point was about Bonino not producing until March. He produced 24 points in 60 games over the first few months of the season. He then produced 14 points in only 20 games in March/April. His production until March was bad. His production only picked up in that final 20 games. How ... is this even debatable?

I'm ... yeah. Anyways.

So he produced at around a .4ppg when he was playing terribly as a 3C playing 16 minutes a night and starting in the D zone the majority of his shifts?

Seems pretty solid in my opinion. I guarantee at best our Bonino replacement produces like that.

 

[Pete Gas]

If Sid or Geno get injured early in the season this would have been a 1-line team even if they re-signed Bonino since Bonino's invisible offensively until around March.

This is true

 

[Ogrezilla]

So he produced at around a .4ppg when he was playing terribly as a 3C playing 16 minutes a night and starting in the D zone the majority of his shifts?

Seems pretty solid in my opinion. I guarantee at best our Bonino replacement produces like that.

Do you think they also cost 4m? That's the real problem with bones. If he was either cheaper or better I'd have loved to keep him, but he isn't good enough to get what he's getting paid.

JR obviously isn't just trying to fill the 3c hole with whatever is readily available. He wants someone good enough and at the right price.

 

[Gurglesons]

Do you think they also cost 4m? That's the real problem with bones. If he was either cheaper or better I'd have loved to keep him, but he isn't good enough to get what he's getting paid.

JR obviously isn't just trying to fill the 3c hole with whatever is readily available. He wants someone good enough and at the right price.

That's fine, just don't create the false narrative that Bonino didn't produce from October to March.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Not gonna link or show tweets but Kingerski believes the Pens may have interest in Zaripov according to his """sources""".

Sources: Pens have inquired and are "Internally discussing" a contract offer for KHL winger Danis Zaripov

Not very reliable so i'll leave it at that.

ETA: From what i know, he's not a C but can play both wings.

 

[Empoleon8771]

He has played with Malkin before and Malkin recently said he'd like it if he could play with him again, so that's a positive, but the Penguins absolutely don't need another skilled winger and they'd almost definitely be outbid by another team. They'd have to trade Hagelin to bring him in, and at that point, I'd probably rather just keep Hagelin due to Zaripov's age.

I guess you could sign him, trade Hagelin and plan on keeping Sprong in the AHL for all of next year, run with:

Sheary-Crosby-Guentzel
Zaripov-Malkin-Hornqvist
Rust-3C-Kessel
Wilson-Rowney-Reaves

But then you have almost no regular PKing forwards in that lineup. If he's willing to sign for really cheap on a 1 year deal to bump up his value by playing with Malkin, I'd gladly bring him in. I just don't see why he'd do that. I don't think the Penguins are in a situation where they can trade Hagelin to bring in a skilled winger.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Not gonna link or show tweets but Kingerski believes the Pens may have interest in Zaripov according to his """sources""".



Not very reliable so i'll leave it at that.

ETA: From what i know, he's not a C but can play both wings.

There's actually a way it could work. It would involve sheltering the 3 and 4 C's a bit, but it could pay big dividends down the road:

Sheary - Crosby - Hornqvist
Zaripov - Malkin - Rust
Hagelin - Guentzel - Kessel
Kuhnhackl - Wilson - Reaves

 

[Peat]

That's fine, just don't create the false narrative that Bonino didn't produce from October to March.

.4 ppg was 100th in the NHL for players listed as C playing 40 games or more last season as a whole season pace.

Joint 91st strictly for points in time period, tied with Matt Cullen (did it in less games) and a bunch of other guys. Komarov is the only guy with more ice time (Jarnkrok comes close).

And this is on the league's offensive juggernaut with Phil Kessel as his most regular line mate.

Nick Bonino's production from October to March didn't match reasonable expectations of a 3C on our team. It was not of a level that offers comfort in the case of injury to Crosby/Malkin.

"He did not produce" seems a fair summation of what went down.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

There's actually a way it could work. It would involve sheltering the 3 and 4 C's a bit, but it could pay big dividends down the road:

Sheary - Crosby - Hornqvist
Zaripov - Malkin - Rust
Hagelin - Guentzel - Kessel
Kuhnhackl - Wilson - Reaves

I don't think any lineup projections that include Hornqvist next to Crosby are likely. For reasons only Sullivan and the team knows, they don't seem to want to play those two together unless they're forced to.

It's more than likely Rust ends up on Sid's line if Guentzel and Sheary aren't flanking him.

 

[billybudd]

At this point there is/was no internal solution at center. That meant it was all the more pressing Rutherford do something.

Have you considered the possibility that there was no external solution at center, either? When I asked this question a week ago, somebody said "Mike Ribeiro," who has subsequently been revealed to be back on drugs and out of shape. That his name came up at all ought to give some idea of how slim the pickings at that position were.

 

[Pens x]

Not gonna link or show tweets but Kingerski believes the Pens may have interest in Zaripov according to his """sources""".



Not very reliable so i'll leave it at that.

ETA: From what i know, he's not a C but can play both wings.

Plotnikov 2.0

 

[Empoleon8771]

Plotnikov 2.0

I mean, that's not even a remotely close comparison. At least if you're going to try and pull out a former European Penguin who was a bust, say Pesonen and that's a lot more applicable.

Zaripov is probably pretty similar to Cervenka, and seeing how Cervenka was a serviceable 3rd liner in the NHL, I'd guess Zaripov would probably be around the same.

That would actually be great to land a player at no cost.

Did you just...quote yourself to mock other people here? Or do you just have multiple accounts here and signed into the wrong one?

 

[Pens x]

Plotnikov 2.0

That would actually be great to land a player at no cost.

 

[Ogrezilla]

That's fine, just don't create the false narrative that Bonino didn't produce from October to March.

I didnt

 

[Riptide]

Not gonna link or show tweets but Kingerski believes the Pens may have interest in Zaripov according to his """sources""".



Not very reliable so i'll leave it at that.

ETA: From what i know, he's not a C but can play both wings.

The only way I see something like this making sense is if we're moving a winger to acquire our #3C and he's a potential replacement, or if we're moving a W to C (aka Guentzel) and he's the potential replacement.

 

[Gurglesons]

.4 ppg was 100th in the NHL for players listed as C playing 40 games or more last season as a whole season pace.

Joint 91st strictly for points in time period, tied with Matt Cullen (did it in less games) and a bunch of other guys. Komarov is the only guy with more ice time (Jarnkrok comes close).

And this is on the league's offensive juggernaut with Phil Kessel as his most regular line mate.

Nick Bonino's production from October to March didn't match reasonable expectations of a 3C on our team. It was not of a level that offers comfort in the case of injury to Crosby/Malkin.

"He did not produce" seems a fair summation of what went down.

So, Komarov spent the majority of the season on Kadri's wing so I'd love to see your list of production from "centers". That isn't mean to be sarcastic, just obviously you are pulling from players that aren't pivots.

Bonino also had a 43 - 57% split in terms of offensive and defensive zone starts.

Bonino also led our team in PK time behind Ian Cole almost playing 20 more minutes total over the season above our next player Cullen.

You want to go into this further? Because I would argue that playing behind Crosby and Malkin made Cullen and Bonino's jobs even harder the last two years and the fact that they both broke around 30 puts both in 2015-16 and 2016-17 shows how hard they are going to be to replace.

 

[Gurglesons]

I didnt

Well, what exactly is your point to responding to me calling out Sid the Kidney then?

Because we were talking about how Bonino disappears from October - February which is factually untrue. He has hit 20pts by the end of January in all of the last four seasons outside of 15-16. We all know how those first couple months went.

He struggled in 16-17 when Sullivan used him like Bylsma used Adams. Kind of hard to produce when you are consistently on the other end of the ice and leading forwards in PK time. He still produced at around a .46ppg clip which is pretty impressive unless you subscribe to the groupthink around here.