Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Trust me... nothing has changed.

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Andy99

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Jun 26, 2017
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The problem with that is while 10 weren't centers, there were also alot of productive guys who got less playing time than him... so the number is right.. bonino is and was an average to above average 3c and his defensive numbers got better here in the role we asked... as will whomever we give that role,

This isn't rocket science and Bonino wasn't what drove our depth scoring..., it was having better wingers on the bottom 6 than ever before and higher end ones in the top Six...

Staal was more important to the 09 win than bonino was to the past two wins... not a knock, judt how it was...heck we won the last with bonino out with a broken leg....

3 c isn't as important as 1c, 2c, top 4 d, G or having legitimate top 6 wingers... its like 10th to 12th on the priorities list... maybe 13th counting coaching... its getting boring recirculating this debate

I'd argue bottom centers are a lot more important to this team than you suggest. Bonino caught lightning in a bottle during the first playoff run and he was a big catalyst for why they steamrolled teams. Last year, it was Cullen, but not as much. The way the Pens play, they need to have at least another line, third or fourth line, that is an offensive threat compared to who they are playing against. We took advantage of a lot of third pairing defensemen. We have to have either a 3C or a 4C who's relatively offensively gifted. The wingers can't do it on their own. Kessel on the third line--if no one else can generate offense and pot a goal, then two or three guys will be on him and the line will go nowhere. It's not just being defensively sound.

As far as Bonino, he can easily be replaced. His offensive gifts were limited. He was not as good defensively as some people here want to suggest. Go look at his goals against. What he did really well for us was block shots, which will be missed but hopefully can be replaced. The real problem is replacing the combination of him and Cullen. I think someone more offensive is needed if we're playing Rowney or McClement. We will not have the scoring depth in the playoffs if we lack that
 

Dipsy Doodle

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That is a fine perspective, but you realize you are being critical of people talking about the future in a thread that is designed to analyze our cap, future moves and the impact signings have in relation to future moves, right?

Like this criticism of a few of us saying that making moves we believe are poor in a thread for being critical of moves is not insane, pessimistic, or troubling.

Some of just don't think everything is roses and want to see us win another cup and believe some moves this summer are foolish and will ultimately effect that.

Hmm. I seem to remember a time not too long ago when all you were asking for after Bonino's departure was another center who could push Rowney to the wing if he doesn't pan out...

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Warm Cookies said:
Alright, so you wanted Bonino and feel it was a big mistake not to re-sign him. I didn't remember you committing to that. We'll see how that turns out.

pixiesfanyo said:
I don't think it is a BIG mistake. I think the real mistake is not bringing in a legitimate NHL center to offset it. I get that we are waiting for Cullen, but having another center even a player like McClement that can push Rowney to wing if he doesn't pan out is all I was asking for.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showt...ighlight=warm+cookies+mcclement#post135096453
 

Gurglesons

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Peat

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For 1.9M he's deffo one of the better options.
Now @ 4.1, not so much.

Even then, he's not atrocious. I was all for signing him back at 4x4 because I thought that he'd be better value for that than a replacement would be once you factor in cost of acquisition. I'm happy Rutherford's backing himself to make it work though.

In any case, I don't know about one of the better options, I'd really want to sit down with a pile of stats before answering that, but he was certainly good enough as a whole and at times fantastic. His performance levels were very inconsistent though and I'll stick firmly to the line that he added very little compared to expectations when he was down.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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Jun 29, 2009
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This thread is certainly going to be entertaining to read when JR finally addresses the 3C position. If he does that, what will folks then complain endlessly about?

Probably the Reaves acquisition. Unless the Pens win the Cup, it's Reaves' fault. Even then, it'll still be Reaves' fault the Pens didn't go 16-0.
 

Pens x

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Oct 8, 2016
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I am just going to hope Rutherford makes a deal or two. There's no reason for me to continue to get all fired up about it. The Steelers are starting in a little over a week and then Pens won't be too far behind them. Let's go Pens, three-peat it.
Good luck to both teams.

I hope you all have a nice long weekend with family and friends. My daughter turns 1 today as it is after midnight.
 

Ogrezilla

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Jul 5, 2009
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I am just going to hope Rutherford makes a deal or two. There's no reason for me to continue to get all fired up about it. The Steelers are starting in a little over a week and then Pens won't be too far behind them. Let's go Pens, three-peat it.
Good luck to both teams.

I hope you all have a nice long weekend with family and friends. My daughter turns 1 today as it is after midnight.

grats!
 

Gurglesons

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This thread is certainly going to be entertaining to read when JR finally addresses the 3C position. If he does that, what will folks then complain endlessly about?

Probably the Reaves acquisition. Unless the Pens win the Cup, it's Reaves' fault. Even then, it'll still be Reaves' fault the Pens didn't go 16-0.

Feeling like we had a poor post cup win summer and expecting every trade and pick to work out is completely contrary.

Also, it is interesting you act like Shady, Pens X and I speak in absolute when you just made the same exact kind of assumption about Bonino even though it is factually incorrect.

It is okay for us to disagree with this summer's moves and still like the Pens and think they have a chance at the cup. We just feel like ultimately letting Bonino walk, not addressing the Cullen situation until he decided, and moving our only center prospect for an enforce type is bad management.

Like, I think we would all be really satisfied if Bjustad or Sobotka ends up a Penguin, but we also realize the longer it takes to solve this situation the more likely we will either get a player that is less than Bonino or a player along Bones lines that will end up costing us assets.

If Reaves puts up 20 points and becomes a physical force like Tom Wilson, I know I'll be completely stoked.

If a Pooh - Hunwick pairing makes Maatta or Cole expendable in a trade, that would be a huge move.

Just because the three of us see flaws in the moves doesn't mean we expect them all to not pan out, but it is okay to also not be super stoked on what seem like moves against the kind we made in the last two cup runs especially when a huge member of our management is no longer here.

It is a discussion board, it's for discussion. Ultimately, we all learn from each other and realize more about the game and team we all love.
 

Peat

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Its only factually incorrect if you think .4 ppg with Kessel on your wing and plenty of PP time is adequate production for a 3C. So much for thinking that argument was over :laugh:
 

Koempel

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Mar 8, 2010
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That tread title really delivered I must say, after a summer away from these boards. While I do trust JR, the thing the Pens might miss most regarding Bonino (and will be harder to replace than his obviously subpar offense) is his defensive play, and especially his zeal in sacrificing his body during the playoffs. Still, I am sure JR will figure it out eventually, though an overpayment might be necessary if the patient approach wears thin.

Anyway, looking a bit at the other teams our main rivals (assuming everyone is healthy) will be CBJ, Caps :laugh: and possibly Tampa in the east. Ducks look strong in the West. Both Edmonton and Toronto might suprise, but I am prety confident the Pens will beat them in a 7 game series. Still can't believe we won back-to-back and have a decent chance at another cup.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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Am I being critical of the McClement move?

Like I honestly don't even know what the point of your post is besides putting up a gif and trolling me?

You had been complaining about the loss of Bonino...again. But again, you were noncommittal about saying that it was a mistake because you didn't want to get tagged with it if re-signing him turned out to be a poor allocation of resources, which is a very real possibility, so then you literally said "having another center even a player like McClement that can push Rowney to wing if he doesn't pan out is all I was asking for".

Well now we have him, and here you are, still complaining about our summer. I guess McClement - the center you mentioned by name - wasn't all you were asking for this summer, eh? And you still have the gall to talk about other posters moving goalposts. :laugh:
 
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Ogrezilla

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Its only factually incorrect if you think .4 ppg with Kessel on your wing and plenty of PP time is adequate production for a 3C. So much for thinking that argument was over :laugh:

Unless we get a Duchene type of 3c I don't expect a whole lot better from whoever we bring in. I'd expect less month long stretches of .25 PPG play though. And I expect they will be cheaper than 4m if they have any sort of term unless they are closer to that Duchene type. I don't think we let bones walk because .4 PPG is unacceptable, i think we let him walk because .4 PPG isn't worth 4 mil with term.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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Unless we get a Duchene type of 3c I don't expect a whole lot better from whoever we bring in. I'd expect less month long stretches of .25 PPG play though. And I expect they will be cheaper than 4m if they have any sort of term unless they are closer to that Duchene type. I don't think we let bones walk because .4 PPG is unacceptable, i think we let him walk because .4 PPG isn't worth 4 mil with term.

Exactly.
 

Burgs

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Sep 10, 2005
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It is okay for us to disagree with this summer's moves and still like the Pens and think they have a chance at the cup. We just feel like ultimately letting Bonino walk, not addressing the Cullen situation until he decided, and moving our only center prospect for an enforce type is bad management.

But Sundqvist wasn't our only center prospect. The biggest and most NHL-ready one, sure. Though the front office apparently disagreed with the latter part. He's also the only one we'd have risked losing on waivers this October. We still have Blueger, Tiffels and Johnson. The latter two will most likely need at least one AHL season to adjust to the pro game. But Blueger should have the smarts and pro experience to step up, if not immediately then maybe after another 30 games in WBS. There's also McKegg and Dea though they don't have much NHL upside anymore.

Also, there was no better option on the table than re-signing Cullen. Getting this guy two years ago was a big stroke of luck that paid off in spades. IMO Cullen earned the right to take his time deciding. Unfortunately he decided to leave. It's tough expecting management to come up with another Cullen. Due to his age he was very underpriced for what he brought, and there's not many players like him around.

If Reaves puts up 20 points and becomes a physical force like Tom Wilson, I know I'll be completely stoked.

Reaves already is a physical force, and he's much smarter about it than Wilson, too. But he won't get 20 points unless he somehow became our 3rd line RW.

Just because the three of us see flaws in the moves doesn't mean we expect them all to not pan out, but it is okay to also not be super stoked on what seem like moves against the kind we made in the last two cup runs especially when a huge member of our management is no longer here.

It is a discussion board, it's for discussion. Ultimately, we all learn from each other and realize more about the game and team we all love.

I agree we still have one serious hole to fill, namely 3C. I just don't think that should be cause for so much alarm. Rutherford is aware of the problem but simply needs time fixing it the right way. It's a problem every contender has. You either overpay in cap space in July or you overpay in picks and prospects during the season. We can't compare ourselves to some up and coming team that still has tons of cap space and picks to spare. The Pens aren't Edmonton or Toronto, we're already in our prime. We have the Cups to show for it, but also the cap crunch and shallow prospect pool. You can't have it all in today's NHL.

JR got rid of Fleury's cap hit, let Kunitz leave, and re-signed Schultz, Dumo and Sheary at fair prices. We only really lost Bonino and Cullen which created this one roster hole. Other contenders have it much worse. So by which measure has this been a bad off-season? If you're worried about Guerin running the ship aground now that Botterill is gone that's merely speculation and another problem entirely.

As long as we get 25+ from McClement, we're golden, pony boy.

Do you mean 25+ games? Because you surely can't mean points. ;) IMO McClement is nearly done as an NHLer and a stop-gap solution at best. He's merely a cheap insurance in case Rowney or the kids get injured in camp or aren't ready for 4C for some other reason. I hope some younger guy steps up and pushes McClement out of roster contention.
 

ncm7772

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Apr 10, 2016
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If the Penguins somehow get 25 points from McClement, it will either be a miracle or they'll have am atrocious 3C, because McClement would have to be the 3C to get that many points.

This.

Man, some people are either just super positive (which I can respect), or have some blinders in if they're legitimately not concerned about the center situation. I expect GMJR to make a move, but still. Starting the season with Carter Rowney and Jay McClement (or a prospect) instead of Nick Bonino and Matt Cullen is an enormous negative.
 

Shady Machine

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Aug 6, 2010
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This thread is certainly going to be entertaining to read when JR finally addresses the 3C position. If he does that, what will folks then complain endlessly about?

Probably the Reaves acquisition. Unless the Pens win the Cup, it's Reaves' fault. Even then, it'll still be Reaves' fault the Pens didn't go 16-0.

It really depends how he addresses it and what he pays. Pixies and my point is Bonino and Cullen will be really hard to replace and I don't think people fully recognize how hard it will be to not have a downgrade at those positions. I don't have great solutions either and will be interested to see what JR does. I just hope it's soon.

Lots of hyperbole in your statement though that I won't address.
 

Ogrezilla

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Jul 5, 2009
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It really depends how he addresses it and what he pays. Pixies and my point is Bonino and Cullen will be really hard to replace and I don't think people fully recognize how hard it will be to not have a downgrade at those positions. I don't have great solutions either and will be interested to see what JR does. I just hope it's soon.

Lots of hyperbole in your statement though that I won't address.

I agree that both will be hard to replace. That's exactly why I'm not upset that he hasn't done it yet. I'm glad JR is trying to replace them adequately instead of just replacing them quickly.
 

JRS91

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Jul 4, 2010
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Reaves already is a physical force, and he's much smarter about it than Wilson, too. But he won't get 20 points unless he somehow became our 3rd line RW.

I think he'll get 5-10 goals and around 15-20 points.

Let's not forget he averaged that in St.Louis, a very defensive-minded system. I don't think it's unfair to say he could put up slightly more production here.

My concern are the linemates. Reaves played with Brodziak and Upshall. Chances are the fourth line will consist of Reaves and then Wilson, McClement, Rowney and Archibald. Reaves I think is the only permanent fixture on that line. There's a good chance the Penguins try Wilson as the team's third line center if no other moves are made.

So that leaves McClement, who is defensively average for a fourth line center, but pretty atrocious offensively when it comes to advanced stats. He's not going to be anywhere near as productive as Cullen was, according to analytics (If you care about that sort of thing). I'd be surprised if McClement gets more than 5 goals and 15 points next season if he makes the team.

If it were up to me, the lines would be.

Guentzel - Crosby - Sheary
Rust - Malkin - Kessel
Hagelin - Wilson - Hornqvist
Rowney - McClement - Reaves

That fourth line is going to be pretty terrible offensively. Not because of Reaves either to be honest.
 

Shady Machine

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Aug 6, 2010
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I agree that both will be hard to replace. That's exactly why I'm not upset that he hasn't done it yet. I'm glad JR is trying to replace them adequately instead of just replacing them quickly.

Yeah I guess. I know JR can't force GMs to give him good centers, but it's not clear to me that he had a cohesive plan. The off-season just seems disjointed.
 

Shady Machine

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Unless we get a Duchene type of 3c I don't expect a whole lot better from whoever we bring in. I'd expect less month long stretches of .25 PPG play though. And I expect they will be cheaper than 4m if they have any sort of term unless they are closer to that Duchene type. I don't think we let bones walk because .4 PPG is unacceptable, i think we let him walk because .4 PPG isn't worth 4 mil with term.

Hey if we get a Bonino caliber center for 3mm or under without spending significant assets, color me impressed. I doubt that will happen.
 

Shady Machine

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Aug 6, 2010
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I think he'll get 5-10 goals and around 15-20 points.

Let's not forget he averaged that in St.Louis, a very defensive-minded system. I don't think it's unfair to say he could put up slightly more production here.

My concern are the linemates. Reaves played with Brodziak and Upshall. Chances are the fourth line will consist of Reaves and then Wilson, McClement, Rowney and Archibald. Reaves I think is the only permanent fixture on that line. There's a good chance the Penguins try Wilson as the team's third line center if no other moves are made.

So that leaves McClement, who is defensively average for a fourth line center, but pretty atrocious offensively when it comes to advanced stats. He's not going to be anywhere near as productive as Cullen was, according to analytics (If you care about that sort of thing). I'd be surprised if McClement gets more than 5 goals and 15 points next season if he makes the team.

If it were up to me, the lines would be.

Guentzel - Crosby - Sheary
Rust - Malkin - Kessel
Hagelin - Wilson - Hornqvist
Rowney - McClement - Reaves

That fourth line is going to be pretty terrible offensively. Not because of Reaves either to be honest.

Wait so you expect bad linemates in Pittsburgh to allow Reaves to beat his career best by 5 points? That's pretty generous
 
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