Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Trust me... nothing has changed.

[billybudd]

Boyle's not a 3C. He's a 4C that's paid like a medium-high-end 3C. If we would have signed Boyle, we would have eliminated even the faintest possibility of acquiring a 3C at any point in the foreseeable future. On top of that, he's right at the age he should be losing a step or two.

This would be a textbook case of signing a guy just so nobody could say you didn't do anything.

Edit: just to put this concretely,

Here's what JR tried to do

Crosby
Malkin
?
Cullen


Here's what JR has actually done to date

Crosby
Malkin
?
?


Here's what we're saying he should have done

Crosby
Malkin
Aging Guy who is not capable of doing the job but makes a **** ton of money
Aging Guy who is not as good as Matt Cullen


The third set is definitely worse than the first set and the jury's still out on whether it's going to be better than the second set.

 

[Shady Machine]

It's illustrative to me that nobody who's overly critical of JR's lack of progress on the 3C front will commit to saying that letting Bonino go was a mistake.

To me, that's having your cake and eating it too.

I'll sign up that I'm okay with Bonino at 4mm

 

[Jenkins]

Chicago in 2013 when they had Richards Kruger and Toews right?

And LA in 2012 when they had Richards Kopi and Stoll?

If you have a Stoll or Kruger you can make a deadline tweak to bring in a player that pushes them down.

Right now we have Crosby, Malkin, Rowney McClement. We are a week from rookie camp.

We really don't need to compare what other teams did. We are the Pittsburgh Penguins and we changed how hockey should be played. We keep winning when others (even some of our own fans) say we can't.

JR really hasn't put a foot wrong in the last two years and Sully has a system where we can plug in lesser players on paper and we continue to win because of the team structure, discipline and our diverse skill sets.

Even if Rowney is our 3C until Christmas/New Years, I dont think we really skip a beat. If Phil and Hags are on his wings Rowney can do the things needed for that line (strong on the boards, hits the net hard, good defensively etc). They have lots of time to practice and find what works until JR can make the right deal.

 

[Shady Machine]

That's likely true. Who could we have had that wouldn't have cost us those sorts of assets that would adequately fill our roster at reasonable deals? Moore I'll give you. But for 3c?

Not sure but by prioritizing Reaves first, we may (focus on the word may) have missed a chance to use that 1st to solve a center issue first.

 

[Jenkins]

Not sure but by prioritizing Reaves first, we may (focus on the word may) have missed a chance to use that 1st to solve a center issue first.

Yeah thats why I was unhappy about the Reaves trade. I thought we could have used that first (or with a plus) to get a good centre. Although there were tweets on draft day about JR having discussions with a few teams. So maybe he did try and when nothing happened and he had a Reaves deal to fall back on if he didn't want/need our first in that draft.

 

[Gurglesons]

Boyle's not a 3C. He's a 4C that's paid like a medium-high-end 3C. If we would have signed Boyle, we would have eliminated even the faintest possibility of acquiring a 3C at any point in the foreseeable future. On top of that, he's right at the age he should be losing a step or two.

This would be a textbook case of signing a guy just so nobody could say you didn't do anything.

Edit: just to put this concretely,

Here's what JR tried to do

Crosby
Malkin
?
Cullen


Here's what JR has actually done to date

Crosby
Malkin
?
?


Here's what we're saying he should have done

Crosby
Malkin
Aging Guy who is not capable of doing the job but makes a **** ton of money
Aging Guy who is not as good as Matt Cullen


The third set is definitely worse than the first set and the jury's still out on whether it's going to be better than the second set.

So you realize we spent more term, and total money on a #6 defensemen who is the same age who has never been anywhere near a cup contender outside of being traded by the Bruins in 2011 right?

Boyle plays wing and center, fits the Reaves mold of a physical player and is a beast in the playoffs as we have see firsthand.

He brings in that Reaves aggression, has one more year on term and if you decide to make a move for a better center has at least proven he is a mediocre 3C and probably in the same class class as Cullen as a 4C.

Also, your perception of the cap hit for a 3C is insane. Kruger was the 4C on the Hawks and was making 3 mil.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'll sign up that I'm okay with Bonino at 4mm

Do you think it was a mistake for us not to sign him at that money and term?

 

[Gurglesons]

Do you think it was a mistake for us not to sign him at that money and term?

We think it was a mistake given what we've done since.

If they bring in a Sobotka or Duchene that completely changes the picture. If they bring in a player like Karlsson and get him for a couple years cheap that changes the picture.

Kind of difficult to judge until we see the 3C.

I'll put it this way, given our depth I would've rather given away Hags and given Bonino that money and dealt him two years down the line then sat around and talked about all the centers we could trade for.

 

[Peat]

Not sure but by prioritizing Reaves first, we may (focus on the word may) have missed a chance to use that 1st to solve a center issue first.

This is my criticism of the trade too at this point. The 1st and Sundqvist could could have helped solve this issue. But, as Jenkins say, I presume Rutherford talked about this in his chats with other teams and couldn't find something he liked. Obviously I have no idea whether he was right to have liked it.

It's illustrative to me that nobody who's overly critical of JR's lack of progress on the 3C front will commit to saying that letting Bonino go was a mistake.

To me, that's having your cake and eating it too.

Am I being perverse for saying I regard it as potentially quite a big error while regarding some of the complaints about not having sorted the situation yet as absurd?

edit:

Do you think it was a mistake for us not to sign him at that money and term?

This depends entirely on what we get instead here. The Ends will justify the Means. Or not as the case may be.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

We think it was a mistake given what we've done since.

If they bring in a Sobotka or Duchene that completely changes the picture. If they bring in a player like Karlsson and get him for a couple years cheap that changes the picture.

Kind of difficult to judge until we see the 3C.

I'll put it this way, given our depth I would've rather given away Hags and given Bonino that money and dealt him two years down the line then sat around and talked about all the centers we could trade for.

Isn't the bolded pretty much what everyone has been saying to you, Shady, and that other guy about waiting to see how this plays out before flipping out?

 

[Gurglesons]

Am I being perverse for saying I regard it as potentially quite a big error while regarding some of the complaints about not having sorted the situation yet as absurd?

I am fully in this camp. You can assume I'm being absurd. I just think it as a back to back champ you are essentially setting yourself up to pay A LOT for a center in terms of assets and I think we've proven we can plug in players that may not be the best, but work here.

Also, the Reaves and Hunwick deals just seem really against what we've done the last couple years.

 

[Gurglesons]

Isn't the bolded pretty much what everyone has been saying to you, Shady, and that other guy about waiting to see how this plays out before flipping out?

And most of our arguments are more in line with people like yourself saying Bonino is an easy replacement, Wilson and a 2nd is going to get us a legitimate 3C, etc.

Signing Bonino cost is nothing, now we are likely selling off a young winger and a pick for a 3C.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

We think it was a mistake given what we've done since.

If they bring in a Sobotka or Duchene that completely changes the picture. If they bring in a player like Karlsson and get him for a couple years cheap that changes the picture.

Kind of difficult to judge until we see the 3C.

That's not answering the question. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too...again. JR couldn't sign Bones and then call backsies after the fact. That's a message board luxury.

Given what we know at this very moment, do you think it a mistake or not? No qualifiers, no other wishy-washy garbage.

 

[SCPens]

I'll sign up that I'm okay with Bonino at 4mm

Ok that's one, make sure to get everyone's signature on your petition. I have no issues waving goodbye to a good contributor, but one who continues to fight through injuries because of his style of play. Those 4 years aren't what the Pens wanted, maybe a 2 year deal at a much lower price tag. That's why both sides went their separate ways.

 

[SCPens]

Not sure but by prioritizing Reaves first, we may (focus on the word may) have missed a chance to use that 1st to solve a center issue first.

Well I guess management doesn't agree with you on which issue was more pressing to the team. That's interesting...

 

[Empoleon8771]

Remember when I posted a list of playoff teams that got a 4C at the deadline. It was Boyle and Desharnais last year and that was it.

Obviously McClement is a fine 4C for the first couple months.

The Penguins have never had problems trading for a 4C when they needed a 4C in the past. They've traded for both Goc and Lapierre in the last like 4 years. I also don't think they need a better 4C.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Am I being perverse for saying I regard it as potentially quite a big error while regarding some of the complaints about not having sorted the situation yet as absurd?

edit:



This depends entirely on what we get instead here. The Ends will justify the Means. Or not as the case may be.

It's very easy to look at things in retrospect...JR does not have that luxury. The decision to sign Bonino or not did not come with a crystal ball.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Not sure but by prioritizing Reaves first, we may (focus on the word may) have missed a chance to use that 1st to solve a center issue first.

Impossible to say, but we didn't trade that 1st until we had no choice but to use it or trade it.

 

[Ogrezilla]

And most of our arguments are more in line with people like yourself saying Bonino is an easy replacement, Wilson and a 2nd is going to get us a legitimate 3C, etc.

Signing Bonino cost is nothing, now we are likely selling off a young winger and a pick for a 3C.

It costs no assets, but it locks up an overpayment for four years. Though I'll admit bones at 4 would be better than Boyle at 2.75.

 

[SCPens]

So you realize we spent more term, and total money on a #6 defensemen who is the same age who has never been anywhere near a cup contender outside of being traded by the Bruins in 2011 right?

Boyle plays wing and center, fits the Reaves mold of a physical player and is a beast in the playoffs as we have see firsthand.

He brings in that Reaves aggression, has one more year on term and if you decide to make a move for a better center has at least proven he is a mediocre 3C and probably in the same class class as Cullen as a 4C.

Also, your perception of the cap hit for a 3C is insane. Kruger was the 4C on the Hawks and was making 3 mil.

C'mon now, who are you trying convince here....yourself?? Reaves and Boyle have one similarity - they're both bigger dudes. That's it. All these "options" you continue to play the hindsight game with aren't even players that fit our style of play. BUT Boyle IS a centre....I'll give you that.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's very easy to look at things in retrospect...JR does not have that luxury. The decision to sign Bonino or not did not come with a crystal ball.

Yeah, a lot of the complaints in here are pure hindsight complaints. If the Penguins would have signed Boyle, people would be complaining that they paid a 4C as much as they did. If the Penguins would have signed Moore, people would be complaining because it pushed Cullen out, especially when Cullen ended up returning. Would anyone be complaining about not signing Moore or Boyle had the Penguins brought back Cullen? I think that answer is a pretty clear no, which just shows how the complaints are just entirely in hindsight.

 

[billybudd]

So you realize we spent more term, and total money on a #6 defensemen who is the same age who has never been anywhere near a cup contender outside of being traded by the Bruins in 2011 right?

Even if I accepted this (and I can't speak intelligently on Hunwick, one way or another), all you're saying is that because bad idea A is bad, bad idea B is good, which isn't logical to me.

Boyle plays wing and center, fits the Reaves mold...He brings in that Reaves aggression

I've seen Boyle get his ass kicked by guys 10 inches shorter than him, probably 5 or 6 times. Habit of absorbing vicious hits, too. He doesn't scare anybody.

Value of this player is that he scores kind of a lot for a fourth liner, but once he's making $2.75 million at age 33, that's not worth anything. Also has a good moustache.

has one more year on term and if you decide to make a move for a better center has at least proven he is a mediocre 3C and probably in the same class class as Cullen as a 4C.

Not on board with any of that. Boyle's not a mediocre 3C; he's been a pretty good 4C, but not anywhere near what Cullen was, despite costing 3 times as much.

Isn't the bolded (ed: tough to see until we know who's at 3C) pretty much what everyone has been saying to you, Shady, and that other guy about waiting to see how this plays out before flipping out?

Nicely put.

I'd add that even if it doesn't get resolved satisfactorily, that outrage should probably be muted considering what JR's done over the last two years. Sometimes the solution's just not there.

 

[Peat]

I am fully in this camp. You can assume I'm being absurd. I just think it as a back to back champ you are essentially setting yourself up to pay A LOT for a center in terms of assets and I think we've proven we can plug in players that may not be the best, but work here.

Also, the Reaves and Hunwick deals just seem really against what we've done the last couple years.

Where as I believe that signing a defenceman for (notionally) the third pairing who skates well, moves the puck well, and offers some decent top 4 experience fits entirely with what we've done the last two years.

Reaves is a lot less of a Pens player, and arguably goes directly against some of Sullivan's philosophy, but at the same time we won the Senators series by hitting a lot. A guy who's fast and forechecks well will never be completely useless here.

 

[Fraction Jackson]

I think it's clear at this point that JR has a very clear first choice and is waiting to see if the price comes down. I don't know whether that first choice is Duchene or someone else, but it is presumably someone JR thinks is worth waiting for.

He's repeatedly said that he has potential lesser deals he could do basically anytime. I assume that he was telling the truth about this. But it also makes sense as a strategic move - if there's someone you really want, let it be known that you have other options and you will use your assets on those instead. That puts on a little bit of extra pressure to come down in price, especially if the market for whoever the top choice is, doesn't have a lot of buyers left. If it actually is Duchene, for example, there aren't really a lot of teams that have both the assets, cap space, and need right now, so threatening to walk away when Sakic kind of needs to trade the guy sometime could be an effective negotiating tactic.

So, my expectation is that by the end of camp, if he doesn't get his first target, that's when he will make a deal. Especially if one of the Vegas centers is one of the supposed deals he could do anytime - pick up the odd one out for cheap and call it a day.

If that doesn't happen, then I might start to worry a bit...but I think I see what JR's strategy is and I'm willing to wait a bit longer to see if it pans out.

 

[Peat]

It's very easy to look at things in retrospect...JR does not have that luxury. The decision to sign Bonino or not did not come with a crystal ball.

Rutherford doesn't have a crystal ball, but he does have the numbers of all the other GMs and can get a good idea of what the centre market looks like before deciding on Bonino's contract. He's chosen to gamble on what he can get that isn't Bonino based on that understanding.

If the gamble goes wrong, then I think its fair to blame Rutherford for misreading the market. Just like he deserves praise if it turns out he got it right.