The Reckoning is upon us

[Beech]

Of course teams would object, the Ast. Gm has been in house and with them this season. They aren't going to let him go and assume the role of GM with another team. Both Darche and Horcoff are very familiar with our ownership and management. They will undoubtedly understand that things have to wait until this season is complete.

In the offseason? Absolutely, all of the above teams would allow their Asst. GM's to move to a GM role with another team.

That's on the Sens, not on other teams to allow one of their highest valued members to go in-season.

I mean Sens literally objected and wouldn't allow Capuano to interview for a head coach role last year.

There's a reason we are hearing the the Sens will have to wait until the offseaosn for guys like Horcoff and Darche, the lightning and Wings aren't going to allow them to go to a rival in season.

There are lots of guys who they can make interim GM. They will go after their guys this May when the season is done.

let's hope that the two or three AGMs who are employed and may be denied the opportunity, get a crack at some other job.

Like I said, can you imagine a 50 M lawsuit?

Imagine a Jim Nill tenure, 11 years and counting. And others who between 1st, 2nd or 3rd stints as GMs are now 10-20 years in.. How much has Kenny Holland banked.. Sweet Lou, etc.

we are talkin 100 M at the extreme high end of the salary scale.. WAHHHH.. What could be if their careers do not flourish.

Ohh well, what got missed last July thanks to the NHL not moving on the sale and turnover

 

[Oduyanow]

this is different.

they need a guy now.. this is not March and you let Dorion go.. 2 months left, no moves are made, you can wait until season's end.

The Sens have a whole season's worth of business to do.. a season to possibly salvage.. a possible new coach to hire.

I doubt that any team would object..

Think if a team objected.. The Sens then hire a different guy... Do you really want to deny a guy at a GMs job???? what if another opportunity does not materialize???

I would see a lawsuit.. a $5 M a year GM for 5 years.. I would ask for 40-50 M for compensation and lawyer fees, lost opportunity, investment earning, etc.

I would also agree with this sentiment, however in the case of Darche do you think Tampa being in the same division as Ottawa, both fighting for a playoff spot (lol) would make a difference in their thinking ?

Edited to add: Did not see BondraTime's post above basically saying the same thing about being rivals, before posting my comment. My apologies.

 

[Micklebot]

this is different.

they need a guy now.. this is not March and you let Dorion go.. 2 months left, no moves are made, you can wait until season's end.

The Sens have a whole season's worth of business to do.. a season to possibly salvage.. a possible new coach to hire.

I doubt that any team would object..

Think if a team objected.. The Sens then hire a different guy... Do you really want to deny a guy at a GMs job???? what if another opportunity does not materialize???

I would see a lawsuit.. a $5 M a year GM for 5 years.. I would ask for 40-50 M for compensation and lawyer fees, lost opportunity, investment earning, etc.

what the hell are you taking about a law suit??? They'd get laughed out of court.

Give your head a shake, teams aren't letting their guy go mid season, and guys aren't suing teams for making them honour their contract...

 

[Beech]

what the hell are you taking about a law suit??? They'd get laughed out of court.

Give your head a shake, teams aren't letting their guy go mid season, and guys aren't suing teams for making them honour their contract...

1) the USA is lawyer driven and sue happy. You can be sued for everything under the sun.

Imagine denying an opportunity for advancement and financial advancement. A lawyer would sink his teeth in, like a dog on a bone

2) how often has there been mid season changes.. especial at GM? often, the GM fire the coach to buy himself a few weeks to months. And so, we land in the new year and now, a GM hiring is typically pushed until season's end.

And so, how often has a GM job opened up early in a season? Even coaching jobs.. each year 5-8 open up. Almost inevitably, they are in the summer.

When coaches are let go early in a season, it is on a team, once good, or once average. NOT ONE just sold, is trying to get out of a 6 year slump. And so, interim coaches generally will do, until a summer change. And so a permanent GM is needed now, to hire a permanent coach.

An early season opening.. to a team needing a playoff run.. so they may need to get a GM, NOW.

if this job or opportunity at this job is lost, due to team denial of opportunity. It will not sit well.

what we are seeing is different, somewhat unique.

 

[Micklebot]

1) the USA is lawyer driven and sue happy. You can be sued for everything under the sun.

You sure can, and you'll get laugher out of court if you try in this case.

Imagine denying an opportunity for advancement and financial advancement. A lawyer would sink his teeth in, like a dog on a bone

Not a good one, because good lawyers know a losing case when they see one. Maybe a desperate lawyer. There are a few prominent ones down south these days.

2) how often has there been mid season changes.. especial at GM? often, the GM fire the coach to buy himself a few weeks to months. And so, we land in the new year and now, a GM hiring is typically pushed until season's end.

And so, how often has a GM job opened up early in a season? Even coaching jobs.. each year 5-8 open up. Almost inevitably, they are in the summer.

This is a bit of a chicken or egg thing. GMs don't typically get fired early in the year because teams know they can't readily replace them until the summer.

When coaches are let go early in a season, it is on a team, once good, or once average. NOT ONE just sold, is trying to get out of a 6 year slump. And so, interim coaches generally will do, until a summer change. And so a permanent GM is needed now, to hire a permanent coach.

Whether it happened because the team underperformed or because the team sold is irrelevant to whether or not another team will allow you to promote one of their staff mid season.

An early season opening.. to a team needing a playoff run.. so they may need to get a GM, NOW.

if this job or opportunity at this job is lost, due to team denial of opportunity. It will not sit well.

what we are seeing is different, somewhat unique.

This isn't unique, it's unrealistic. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are, Tbay is not hurting itself to make us better mid year.

 

[Beech]

I would also agree with this sentiment, however in the case of Darche do you think Tampa being in the same division as Ottawa, both fighting for a playoff spot (lol) would make a difference in their thinking ?

Edited to add: Did not see BondraTime's post above basically saying the same thing about being rivals, before posting my comment. My apologies.

Oduy,

think about the situation.

imagine the Sens approach Darche.. or approaching is team to get permission to interview..

the owner Vinik can say no.. then hopefully, he is moral enough to understand what he is doing.

He is denying Darche an opportunity at one of 32 most coveted jobs in hockey. 32 GM, they change at about 3 guys a year... and you are going to deny him this?????????

so what happens if TB continues o stall and Vinik decides to clean house in 1-2 years and goodbye GM and all his assistants, as in Darche. Now Darche is unemployed and missed out on a good opportunity at a GM spot on another team...

f*** that will go down smooth, wouldn't it?

You sure can, and you'll get laugher out of court if you try in this case.


Not a good one, because good lawyers know a losing case when they see one. Maybe a desperate lawyer. There are a few prominent ones down south these days.

This is a bit of a chicken or egg thing. GMs don't typically get fired early in the year because teams know they can't readily replace them until the summer.

Whether it happened because the team underperformed or because the team sold is irrelevant to whether or not another team will allow you to promote one of their staff mid season.

This isn't unique, it's unrealistic. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are, Tbay is not hurting itself to make us better mid year.

read 81

 

[BankStreetParade]

I'm not sure why this matters.

Ownership moved in and suddenly had to deal with some rather serious drama out of nowhere.

I'd rather they take their time instead of rushing into anything. The new GM and new coaching staff will need multiyear deals, it is very important that everybody involved in the selection process be on the same page.

Throwing slogans around is silly. Best in class doesn't mean mistakes won't happen or that problems get fixed in a matter of days.

It wasn't out of nowhere. They didn't know the penalty but they knew there was an investigation into the Dadonov trade that would result in some sort of punishment. And, beyond that, they knew that Dorion was a lame-duck GM and DJ was on thin ice, at best. There's just no conceivable way these guys took over and didn't have a plan to replace Dorion, at the least, and potentially DJ too, at some point in the near future.

Every single jabroni with a keyboard on this website knows this team needed a strong start to the season or heads would roll. This is one of the easiest to foresee and most likely outcomes that you could anticipate.

I just don't understand how they didn't show up with a plan in place. The Staios rumours were out there for months. So we know they've had conversations going back quite some time now. The core of the team is quantified and locked down, so it's not like they're starting with a blank slate and trying to figure out a vision. They needed to have a contingency plan in place when they showed up for work or, at the most, within the first few weeks of Staios' tenure as POHO. If Staios came to the job not knowing what kind of people he's looking for to lead this team in these 2 crucial areas, then why the hell is he POHO?

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

It wasn't out of nowhere. They didn't know the penalty but they knew there was an investigation into the Dadonov trade that would result in some sort of punishment. And, beyond that, they knew that Dorion was a lame-duck GM and DJ was on thin ice, at best. There's just no conceivable way these guys took over and didn't have a plan to replace Dorion, at the least, and potentially DJ too, at some point in the near future.

Every single jabroni with a keyboard on this website knows this team needed a strong start to the season or heads would roll. This is one of the easiest to foresee and most likely outcomes that you could anticipate.

I just don't understand how they didn't show up with a plan in place. The Staios rumours were out there for months. So we know they've had conversations going back quite some time now. The core of the team is quantified and locked down, so it's not like they're starting with a blank slate and trying to figure out a vision. They needed to have a contingency plan in place when they showed up for work or, at the most, within the first few weeks of Staios' tenure as POHO. If Staios came to the job not knowing what kind of people he's looking for to lead this team in these 2 crucial areas, then why the hell is he POHO?

I would imagine that the thinking was, "the best way to help the players get off to a good start is to minimize distractions," so let's keep things as they are.

Well, that clearly didn't work out.

I get not having an immediate replacement for GM since you have two internal people who, combined, can handle the role until the summer.

But if they didn't/don't have a plan B for the coach... then that is concerning.

 

[Micklebot]

Oduy,

think about the situation.

imagine the Sens approach Darche.. or approaching is team to get permission to interview..

the owner Vinik can say no.. then hopefully, he is moral enough to understand what he is doing.

He is denying Darche an opportunity at one of 32 most coveted jobs in hockey. 32 GM, they change at about 3 guys a year... and you are going to deny him this?????????

so what happens if TB continues o stall and Vinik decides to clean house in 1-2 years and goodbye GM and all his assistants, as in Darche. Now Darche is unemployed and missed out on a good opportunity at a GM spot on another team...

f*** that will go down smooth, wouldn't it?


read 81

I thought about it and it's a bad argument. That's life. He signed a contract to an NHL team, he knows how it works. If Darche can't get a job after Tbay cleans house, thems the brakes.

No team, full stop, is letting their AGM go mid season. Don't care if it hurts feelings, if Darche is willing to go mid year and abandon his team mid stream, and will throw a hissy fit if they don't let him go, then I don't know if I want him here anyways.

 

[Blotto71]

what the hell are you taking about a law suit??? They'd get laughed out of court.

Give your head a shake, teams aren't letting their guy go mid season, and guys aren't suing teams for making them honour their contract...

Dad? Is that you??

Do you also use, "Get a grip!"?

 

[Do Make Say Think]

It wasn't out of nowhere. They didn't know the penalty but they knew there was an investigation into the Dadonov trade that would result in some sort of punishment. And, beyond that, they knew that Dorion was a lame-duck GM and DJ was on thin ice, at best. There's just no conceivable way these guys took over and didn't have a plan to replace Dorion, at the least, and potentially DJ too, at some point in the near future.

Every single jabroni with a keyboard on this website knows this team needed a strong start to the season or heads would roll. This is one of the easiest to foresee and most likely outcomes that you could anticipate.

I just don't understand how they didn't show up with a plan in place. The Staios rumours were out there for months. So we know they've had conversations going back quite some time now. The core of the team is quantified and locked down, so it's not like they're starting with a blank slate and trying to figure out a vision. They needed to have a contingency plan in place when they showed up for work or, at the most, within the first few weeks of Staios' tenure as POHO. If Staios came to the job not knowing what kind of people he's looking for to lead this team in these 2 crucial areas, then why the hell is he POHO?

Because Andlauer had no real idea of how the organization was ran until he got in and Staios showed up even later. They start getting the hang of it and suddenly Pinto is suspended and we lose a 1st: Andlaeur said he found out about the Dadonov investigation about a week before his press conference.

It isn't complicated.

 

[Micklebot]

Dad? Is that you??

Do you also use, "Get a grip!"?

Son, clean up your room and turn off the lights when you leave a room. And don't you dare touch the thermostat

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Methot: They have to clean up the defensive side of things

Former Senator Marc Methot joins the show to talk about Brady Tkachuk's postgame comments, the state of the Sens, and more

www.tsn.ca

Has a little preamble before they get into it around 10:50

Marc says its obvious
- its the defensive structure. means play imo
- back checking , cheating coming back, big name guys, no names given
- Its a matter of buy in and accountability
- trends are continuing. Still dealing with the same problem
- main problem is defensive play; the defensive side of the puck that has to be cleaned up
- until that happens losing will continue
- not a coincidence goalies struggle here vs when they go play somewhere else
- sit down with the players individually, I need you to do this and if you don't I need to sit you
- feels like its been lacking in recent years
- if you can't hold your players accountable its not going to work well


Here Here

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Methot: They have to clean up the defensive side of things

Former Senator Marc Methot joins the show to talk about Brady Tkachuk's postgame comments, the state of the Sens, and more

www.tsn.ca

Has a little preamble before they get into it around 10:50

Remember when we were told we need to trust Methot when he said coaching isn’t the issue?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Remember when we were told we need to trust Methot when he said coaching isn’t the issue?

Slowly coming around

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Methot: They have to clean up the defensive side of things

Former Senator Marc Methot joins the show to talk about Brady Tkachuk's postgame comments, the state of the Sens, and more

www.tsn.ca

Has a little preamble before they get into it around 10:50

Marc says its obvious
- its the defensive structure. means play imo
- back checking , cheating coming back, big name guys, no names given
- Its a matter of buy in and accountability
- trends are continuing. Still dealing with the same problem
- main problem is defensive play; the defensive side of the puck that has to be cleaned up
- until that happens losing will continue
- not a coincidence goalies struggle here vs when they go play somewhere else
- sit down with the players individually, I need you to do this and if you don't I need to sit you
- feels like its been lacking in recent years
- if you can't hold your players accountable its not going to work well


Here Here

Problem is they are limited right now because of injuries, and cannot limit the players in the game...

 

[sennysensen]

Methot: They have to clean up the defensive side of things

Former Senator Marc Methot joins the show to talk about Brady Tkachuk's postgame comments, the state of the Sens, and more

www.tsn.ca

Has a little preamble before they get into it around 10:50

Marc says its obvious
- its the defensive structure. means play imo
- back checking , cheating coming back, big name guys, no names given
- Its a matter of buy in and accountability
- trends are continuing. Still dealing with the same problem
- main problem is defensive play; the defensive side of the puck that has to be cleaned up
- until that happens losing will continue
- not a coincidence goalies struggle here vs when they go play somewhere else
- sit down with the players individually, I need you to do this and if you don't I need to sit you
- feels like its been lacking in recent years
- if you can't hold your players accountable its not going to work well


Here Here

1000% this!

Volumes and volumes have been written lately about what is wrong with the Sens.

This is all you really need to say.

They have never learned good defensive structure / how to defend.

Assuming we hire a young , upcoming coach with ties to Staios, like John Gruden; get a great veteran defensive system coach as an assistant.

Jacques Martin is probably too old, but he'd be great as an assistant coach implementing the system like he did in Pittsburgh. I always liked how Larry Robinson always had a great impact with the defensemen when he was an assistant coach, but too old / retired. I don't like Julien as head coach, as he's too old, wasn't great in his last couple stops, and Tim Thomas is by far the main reason he won a cup. But he'd be a great assistant in the Jacques Martin Pittsburgh role.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Remember when we were told we need to trust Methot when he said coaching isn’t the issue?

A lot of it is on the players to be fair. The coaching staff isn't telling them to continuously lose their coverage.

However the coaching staff's job is to get the players to perform. If the same mistakes keep happening, then something has to change on the coaching side.

It sounds like they are trying, they keep saying they have a new scheme/system, but it isn't working any better so far and that's also on coaching.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Because Andlauer had no real idea of how the organization was ran until he got in and Staios showed up even later. They start getting the hang of it and suddenly Pinto is suspended and we lose a 1st: Andlaeur said he found out about the Dadonov investigation about a week before his press conference.

It isn't complicated.

No, he knew there was an investigation but wasn't made aware that the potential punishment for it could be a first round pick. He said it himself in the press conference after Dorion was let go:

"That's a question you'd have to ask the NHL... Why I inherited this is beyond me, like there is no reason for it to last that long," Andlauer said of the punishment handed out for the failed trade that occurred in March 2022. "I knew about it; the due diligence process. And basically, from the seller's perspective, it was really a non-issue.

Also, Staios was hired a week after Andlauer took over and was already rumoured to be getting the job from the day Andlauer's bid was presumed to be the winning one, months before the official hand over. It's not like Andlauer officially took over and then Staios got a call out of the blue about being the POHO.

Anyway, it doesn't excuse the fact that the 2 most likely outcomes we all predicted and saw coming from a mile away are currently happening and the only plan they had in place was for the inexperienced POHO to also take over the interim GM role, another position he has 0 NHL experience doing.

There's a handful of names, with experience, who could have been perfectly suited to a caretaker GM role. They could have vetted those candidates in the first week of taking the job, conducted some interviews and had a name ready to go in the event that Dorion was fired. And let's be honest it wasn't an if but a when. The press conference could have had some clear direction for where things stand for the rest of the year at the GM position and we would know the POHO is free to work on the most pressing issues.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Methot: They have to clean up the defensive side of things

Former Senator Marc Methot joins the show to talk about Brady Tkachuk's postgame comments, the state of the Sens, and more

www.tsn.ca

Has a little preamble before they get into it around 10:50

Marc says its obvious
- its the defensive structure. means play imo
- back checking , cheating coming back, big name guys, no names given
- Its a matter of buy in and accountability
- trends are continuing. Still dealing with the same problem
- main problem is defensive play; the defensive side of the puck that has to be cleaned up
- until that happens losing will continue
- not a coincidence goalies struggle here vs when they go play somewhere else
- sit down with the players individually, I need you to do this and if you don't I need to sit you
- feels like its been lacking in recent years
- if you can't hold your players accountable its not going to work well


Here Here

Why does no one call out these big name players when everyone knows who they are.

The big name players live in a bubble with their points and how much smoke gets blown up their ass.

 

[Micklebot]

Why does no one call out these big name players when everyone knows who they are.

The big name players live in a bubble with their points and how much smoke gets blown up their ass.

I mean, he said, not being afraid to call out your assistant captain or your captain. So tkachuk, Giroux and Chabot

 

[WallyD]

I somewhat agree here. I think they know who they want, I think they had to fire PD early, and I think they want the GM to pick the coach.

I have never though that Andlauer nor Staios view this season in the same way as Sens fans as they have never expressed any expectations of playoffs.

There has been an immediate divergence of fan expectations and ownership and POHO expectations for this team.

Fans want it now, and the new guys have been moving slowly and deliberately to build
The thing they want to build.

I would expect more of the same until things fall in to place top down before I would expect a fast move to save the season.

Dunno, maybe they blink first but I don’t think everyone is on the same page here at the moment.


I like this post but have to say that I’m losing any sort of hope that Bath will use his physicality. He’s a stick and dipsy doodle guy right now. Sanderson, Pinto, and Norris don’t seem to physically engage much either.

We don’t know until a new coach runs a new system and new expectations though.

Solid observation on the (potential degree of) divergence between owner-management and fan expectations. Interesting way of looking at it. We can't ignore the fact that for MA & SS, this asset must be managed and nurtured as a long term investment, not a momentary emotional thing.

I'm just happy to have solid leadership in place. More than willing to trust the pace of change they deem appropriate, even if my emotions tell me I want change and results yesterday, dammit! Also going to cut them some slack knowing the old adage "short term pain for long term gain" very likely will have play in this process.

 

[WallyD]

He interviewed with the Hawks and Ducks near the end of the 2022 season when he was yet to be announced as Asst. GM for the Lightning. Even then, he wouldn't have joined until the season was over.

Since being promoted to Asst. GM, the likelihood of him leaving to another team during the season is almost non-existent.

Like that you noted "almost"... It is possible that some of these people, especially the more sought after ones, have negotiated contract clauses that permit them to pursue external promotions should they arise. Teams are not likely amenable to lateral transfers. I am aware that it is interference, against NHL rules, for a team to approach another's personnel absent that team's permission.

I agree that as newly promoted, an in-year change is quite unlikely.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Just pie in the sky thinking here, but if Sens upper management has a GM candidate in their sites (like this Darche fellow) but can't hire him until the summer, is there anything in the rulebook that says they can't ask him who his top candidates for head coach would be right now? I know you want the GM in place before hiring a coach, but if the GM already gets his choice in place before he is officially hired, isn't that kind of the same thing?

Or would league rules call that some form of tampering?

 

[Snuggs]

Just pie in the sky thinking here, but if Sens upper management has a GM candidate in their sites (like this Darche fellow) but can't hire him until the summer, is there anything in the rulebook that says they can't ask him who his top candidates for head coach would be right now? I know you want the GM in place before hiring a coach, but if the GM already gets his choice in place before he is officially hired, isn't that kind of the same thing?

Or would league rules call that some form of tampering?

From my understanding, Sens have to have permission to even speak to Darche about employment, any sort of "agreement" without ownership approval would be tampering. That, also has to be proven. So, it'd be on the league to then prove Sens spoke to Darche about employment which is also hard to do.

Assuming ownership gave permission to speak to Darche, but he finished out the season, Sens wouldn't be in trouble.

I'm not saying the latter can't happen. It was like the dirtiest secret in the league about 4 years ago with Yzerman going to the Red Wings.(Though I think he officially resigned or something a year prior to Holland leaving.)