The Race for the Calder Trophy

[CBJx614]

Faber is the one shutting down all those "focal points"

Okay and?

 

[Yepthatsme]

Here is a thought experiment

Brodin and Faber play together all game long, their usage is identical, pray tell how you've deduced Brodin is the de facto #1, and how that somehow makes Faber doing the same thing less impressive.

Also probably should mention that "Faber has every argument people are making for Bedard, while also being a supreme defensive talent"

Before Fabers recent stretch of usage, Brodin was playing about a minute more per night. It doesn’t seem like much, but it adds up. There are maybe 3-4 D-men in the league that are as good defensively as a point per game player is offensively. Faber is great, but he is no where near that tier yet.

Here is a thought experiment for everyone here claiming Faber is more impressive. How many defenseman who float around that half point per game year over year are distinctly better than a centre who floats around point per game year over year? How many examples can you name that are clear cut better? 2? 3?

 

[Obvious Fabertism]

Here is a thought experiment
Before Fabers recent stretch of usage, Brodin was playing about a minute more per night. It doesn’t seem like much, but it adds up. There are maybe 3-4 D-men in the league that are as good defensively as a point per game player is offensively. Faber is great, but he is no where near that tier yet.

Here is a thought experiment for everyone here claiming Faber is more impressive. How many defenseman who float around that half point per game year over year would you not trade for a centre who floats around point per game year over year? How many examples can you name that are clear cut better? 2? 3?

We are talking about a single season award, trade value has no impact on this discussion. And you can search my post history but I value that kind of defenseman quite highly, I think guys like Spurgeon, Heiskanen, Slavin, McAvoy are all worth more than the Horvats and Barzals of the world. I care very little for point production as a measure of success.

 

[BHawk21]

It must drive people up a wall that Faber has been more impactful this season than Bedard.

It’s “less important” because Faber, who was 1st pair from game 1 of the season, has had injuries on his team. But ZOMG Chicago players sucks so Bedard gets bonus importance!

The mental gymnastics is breathtaking.

Fabers been great. Bedard has the calder at this point. Hes got 9 more points then the next best rookie and 11 more points then the next best Blackhawk.

I don't think any Wild fans are confused about the special nuance of the trophies and how they only go to points. I don't think that changes the fact that you can easily argue Faber is the best rookie player in the league this season.

In this instance, the best rookie will almost certainly not win the Calder trophy.

Why? because your a Wild fan or do you have an argument that Faber has been better then Bedard this season.

 

[BHawk21]

Faber has played 55% of his teams ice time over the last stretch, that’s pretty damn important. Two way is absolutely what he is and always has been.

Seth Jones does that for the blackhawks...

Ask what people think about him.

 

[AKL]

Here is a thought experiment for everyone here claiming Faber is more impressive. How many defenseman who float around that half point per game year over year would you not trade for a centre who floats around point per game year over year? How many examples can you name that are clear cut better? 2? 3?

So a 74 point center that provides very little in the way of defensive play, or a 38 point defenseman who provides excellent defensive play. I'm trying to find some comps but it's hard because very few centers in the league are as poor defensively as Bedard has been so far. Necas is the closest I can find for a rough comp for that from last year, but he was moved to wing. As for the Faber comp...Jared Spurgeon maybe? That one's even harder.

Who's a better player, Spurgeon or Necas? In any given year I'd take Spurgeon.

Point being, in this one year, not taking into account the future, it's a lot closer than you think.

 

[Yepthatsme]

We are talking about a single season award, trade value has no impact on this discussion. And you can search my post history but I value that kind of defenseman quite highly, I think guys like Spurgeon, Heiskanen, Slavin, McAvoy are all worth more than the Horvats and Barzals of the world. I care very little for point production as a measure of success.

Sorry I’ll edit it to say better, not trade value. Also:
Heiskanen •0.67 point per game over the last 4 years
Mcavoy: •0.71
Barzal •0.87
Horvat •0.82

None of those players are in the tiers we are talking about. To help here are the players who are exclusively centre hovering around point per game for the last 4, and the best defenseman around .5

Scheifele
Zibanejad
Point
Aho
Petterson
Eichel
Tavares (arguably carried to being in this group)
Malkin
Hiintz

Slavin (actually around .42 but we will definitely count him, he’s amazing)
Spurgeon
Seider
Weegar
Nurse
Hanifin

Would say probably only Slavin and Seider are distinctly than than the worst 2 ( Tavares and Malkin), with Spurgeon having arguments. So 2-3 examples in the 2020s, with the vast majority of roughly point per game centres being far more valuable the 40 point defenseman. So in conclusion:
Point per game centres > 40 point dmen
Bedard > Faber

 

[AKL]

Sorry I’ll edit it to say better, not trade value. Also:
Heiskanen •0.67 point per game over the last 4 years
Mcavoy: •0.71
Barzal •0.87
Horvat •0.82

None of those players are in the tiers we are talking about. To help here are the players who are exclusively centre hovering around point per game for the last 4, and the best defenseman around .5

Scheifele
Zibanejad
Point
Aho
Petterson
Eichel
Tavares (arguably carried to being in this group)
Malkin
Hiintz

Slavin (actually around .42 but we will definitely count him, he’s amazing)
Spurgeon
Seider
Weegar
Nurse
Hanifin

Would say probably only Slavin and Seider are distinctly than than the worst 2 ( Tavares and Malkin), with Spurgeon having arguments. So 2-3 examples in the 2020s, with the vast majority of roughly point per game centres being far more valuable the 40 point defenseman. So in conclusion:
Point per game centres > 40 point dmen
Bedard > Faber

All of your points seem to completely ignore that defense exists and is an important part of the game.

 

[Yepthatsme]

So a 74 point center that provides very little in the way of defensive play, or a 38 point defenseman who provides excellent defensive play. I'm trying to find some comps but it's hard because very few centers in the league are as poor defensively as Bedard has been so far. Necas is the closest I can find for a rough comp for that from last year, but he was moved to wing. As for the Faber comp...Jared Spurgeon maybe? That one's even harder.

Who's a better player, Spurgeon or Necas? In any given year I'd take Spurgeon.

Point being, in this one year, not taking into account the future, it's a lot closer than you think.

I’d say the best examples that can be used for D-men having more value would be centres who are distinctly not the best players on their team (the Malkin and Tavares’ of the world). Necas isn’t a centre and doesn’t have the sustained success to be included in this group I’d say, so I’d be hard pressed to include him. If we limit it down to centres who are obviously the best forward on their team, Slavin over a name like Scheifele is probably the only example league wide.

 

[DigitalBoldy]

Fabers been great. Bedard has the calder at this point. Hes got 9 more points then the next best rookie and 11 more points then the next best Blackhawk.


Why? because your a Wild fan or do you have an argument that Faber has been better then Bedard this season.

He wins because zomg points, not actual game impact. The only argument against Faber is “omg point totals” like points are the only thing that make a good player.

Zuccarello leads the Wild in points, yet he’s probably the fifth best forward on the team.

Ryan Suter was a de-facto top 5 dman in the league for many years and he only put up over 50 points twice.

 

[AKL]

I’d say the best examples that can be used for D-men having more value would be centres who are distinctly not the best players on their team (the Malkin and Tavares’ of the world). Necas isn’t a centre and doesn’t have the sustained success to be included in this group I’d say, so I’d be hard pressed to include him. If we limit it down to centres who are obviously the best forward on their team, Slavin over a name like Scheifele is probably the only example league wide.

Now we're moving the goalposts from points to how they rank on their own team? I can't keep up.

 

[Obvious Fabertism]

Sorry I’ll edit it to say better, not trade value. Also:
Heiskanen •0.67 point per game over the last 4 years
Mcavoy: •0.71
Barzal •0.87
Horvat •0.82

None of those players are in the tiers we are talking about. To help here are the players who are exclusively centre hovering around point per game for the last 4, and the best defenseman around .5

Scheifele
Zibanejad
Point
Aho
Petterson
Eichel
Tavares (arguably carried to being in this group)
Malkin
Hiintz

Slavin (actually around .42 but we will definitely count him, he’s amazing)
Spurgeon
Seider
Weegar
Nurse
Hanifin

Would say probably only Slavin and Seider are distinctly than than the worst 2 ( Tavares and Malkin), with Spurgeon having arguments. So 2-3 examples in the 2020s, with the vast majority of roughly point per game centres being far more valuable the 40 point defenseman. So in conclusion:
Point per game centres > 40 point dmen
Bedard > Faber

Barzal was over PPG as a rookie and won the Calder for that, I think he’s a pretty great comparable to talk about in this scenario as he is someone that has had challenges adjusting his game to be successful in the NHL. He should be exhibit A on how points don’t necessarily tell the full tale.

Brodin has even less points than your demands and I would take him over 4 players on your list too for a one season trade. I am sure there are others but life demands are taking me away. Might revisit later.

 

[Yepthatsme]

All of your points seem to completely ignore that defense exists and is an important part of the game.

Scheifele and JT Miller are probably the best comps for top centres who put in putrid defensive efforts over the years, and I’d still be hard pressed to find many of those Dmen I’d take over them other than Slavin. Faber has been great, but Bedard is closer to the Millers and Scheifele of the world mote than Faber is to Slavin.

That’s what this really boils down to. Faber has been great. Bedard is already entering a pretty elite group of centres in this league. People are struggling to find adequate comps because there really aren’t any other than Slavin, and that’s the best defensive Dman in the league.

 

[Yepthatsme]

Now we're moving the goalposts from points to how they rank on their own team? I can't keep up.

I quite literally included them from the get go, I was trying to provide context by narrowing it down further to get the best apples to apples comparison.

Barzal was over PPG as a rookie and won the Calder for that, I think he’s a pretty great comparable to talk about in this scenario as he is someone that has had challenges adjusting his game to be successful in the NHL. He should be exhibit A on how points don’t necessarily tell the full tale.

Brodin has even less points than your demands and I would take him over 4 players on your list too for a one season trade. I am sure there are others but life demands are taking me away. Might revisit later.

So the best comparison is a guy who dramatically fell off after a tremendous year? So Faber is better because next year Bedard may play worse? By those parameters I’d argue the list of rookie defenseman who feel off dramatically after great rookie years is much more extensive.

I’d give you Brodin has both arguments both for and against with Malkin and Tavares, the other two whoever they are are not a great opinion…

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Bedard has been excellent offensively, clearly the best d+1 rookie since Matthews/Laine in 2016-17.

But Faber has been the more impactful rookie pretty easily.

 

[ThatGuy22]

I quite literally included them from the get go, I was trying to provide context by narrowing it down further to get the best apples to apples comparison.

So the best comparison is a guy who dramatically fell off after a tremendous year? So Faber is better because next year Bedard may play worse? By those parameters I’d argue the list of rookie defenseman who feel off dramatically after great rookie years is much more extensive.

I’d give you Brodin has both arguments both for and against with Malkin and Tavares, the other two whoever they are are not a great opinion…

That list of D would be huge... but it would be filled with guys who put up a ton of points and got excessively praised for it, ignoringtheir faults.

Not guys who excelled defensively.

 

[Obvious Fabertism]

I quite literally included them from the get go, I was trying to provide context by narrowing it down further to get the best apples to apples comparison.

So the best comparison is a guy who dramatically fell off after a tremendous year? So Faber is better because next year Bedard may play worse? By those parameters I’d argue the list of rookie defenseman who feel off dramatically after great rookie years is much more extensive.

I’d give you Brodin has both arguments both for and against with Malkin and Tavares, the other two whoever they are are not a great opinion…

I am not saying that Barzal even fell off, or that Bedard will "fall off" either. I am saying that points in the NHL can come a lot of ways and creating them sustainably is very important to me personally when I evaluate players. I see the talent and creativity of Bedard as extremely high, I personally think that the way he is playing the game so far is not sustainable for long term success though. I understand why Chicago is playing him the way that they are, but if I was able to get my hands on him to coach, I would have some different things to say than his coaches I am sure. Not many teams take throw away development years like Chicago did this year, I think they should use that time wisely.

Schiefele and Zibanajad are the other two just for your reference, I don't have particularly great opinions of either, though I rate Zibanajad a bit higher I suppose.

 

[HanSolo]

No longer a race .. not that it ever was

The discussion has pretty much flipped to who will be the other two finalists.

 

[Fraser28]

I don't think any Wild fans are confused about the special nuance of the trophies and how they only go to points. I don't think that changes the fact that you can easily argue Faber is the best rookie player in the league this season.

In this instance, the best rookie will almost certainly not win the Calder trophy.

I definitely don’t agree with “the best rookie will almost certainly not win the Calder trophy”. Nah, Bedard will deservedly win.

Bedard has been excellent offensively, clearly the best d+1 rookie since Matthews/Laine in 2016-17.

But Faber has been the more impactful rookie pretty easily.

Define “impactful”.

 

[State of Hockey]

Faber is on pace for 40 points, most of them ES. That is not a defensive Dman. That is what good offensive Dman do. On top of that Faber plays outstanding defense. According to some metrics, Slavin/Brodin type defense.

Don't confuse a puck-moving defensive defensemen playing in a friendly system for D-man production (e.g. Brodin) for an actual offensive defensemen. A pace of 2.73 goals, 95.6 shots, and not taking advantage of a wide-open PP pointman role isn't the resume of an offensive defensemen.

Faber looks to be another Brodin. Good player. Very useful on the blueline. Not nearly as special or important to a Stanley Cup contender as what's implied in this thread, as we've seen with Brodin, Spurgeon, etc. He's only a Calder contender if Bedard doesn't exist.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Define “impactful”.

Lol is this what it comes down to?

 

[ORRFForever]

It must drive people up a wall that Faber has been more impactful this season than Bedard.

It’s “less important” because Faber, who was 1st pair from game 1 of the season, has had injuries on his team. But ZOMG Chicago players sucks so Bedard gets bonus importance!

The mental gymnastics is breathtaking.

???

The hockey world is talking about Bedard. I'm not sure anyone cares - minus hard core hockey fans.

 

[Obvious Fabertism]

???

The hockey world is talking about Bedard. I'm not sure anyone cares - minus hard core hockey fans.

Your Hockey world might be, my world is Faber talk in the office and around town. My Bruins coworker was a big fan.

 

[ORRFForever]

Your Hockey world might be, my world is Faber talk in the office and around town. My Bruins coworker was a big fan.

The Hockey Writers decide so write them and make your case for Faber.

Good luck... you'll need it.

 

[3074326]

Now we're moving the goalposts from points to how they rank on their own team? I can't keep up.

Well, you just moved the goalposts too. You turned Bedard vs. Faber into Spurgeon vs. Necas. Pretty much completely irrelevant.