Speculation: The Quest to sign Lindholm: Part II

[aj8000]

I'm not ignoring anything, but those signs you're seeing are a matter of opinion, not fact. If McKenzie is reporting those numbers, he's getting them from somewhere, or he'd be stating outright it's his opinion. He's pretty good at making that distinction clear.

You're saying we are getting little information, but that is information. If you're passing it off as a red herring, you're dismissing some of the little information we are actually getting, because it doesn't mesh with your opinion of whatever you think is going on. I just don't see how that works, and how any of it suggests it's a red herring. It could be incorrect information, sure, but a red herring? No. That means the number is deliberately misleading.

See above, it means that we are not being told the whole story. They want us to believe it is just salary, that is the red herring.

 

[dracom]

Yes, I have heard that from Ducks fans several times; however, I believe that it is a red herring. If the ducks were in a position to sign Lindholm in respect to cap space and budget, the so called 250,000 difference would have disappeared faster then it took me to type this response. You are welcome to keep believing that this is about the contract difference of 250,000 causing the delay in signing; however, if you really thought about it, there is a major issue here that is keeping the Ducks from making a deal. It is not public yet, but we will have a general idea of what it is before December 1.

So Bob McKenzie is just giving out red herrings? Really? He's going to risk his reputation for that? You continue to only want to believe whatever fits your opinion and ignore any actual information we have. Sounds like you want to believe there's something is making Lindholm not want to sign with us, so you can get him for Trouba.

If Lindholm didn't want to sign with us, he would have asked for a trade by now, but he hasn't. Which means he most likely wants to stay with us.

 

[dracom]

Right. They have to save the money so they can overpay Bieksa/Stoner/Bernier, retain on Maroon.

Are you guys starting to understand why Lindholm could get pissed about this situation?

They didn't sign Bernier, they traded for him and only paid half of what his cap is. Get your facts straight first before trying to stir up imaginary drama.

 

[aj8000]

So Bob McKenzie is just giving out red herrings? Really? He's going to risk his reputation for that? You continue to only want to believe whatever fits your opinion and ignore any actual information we have. Sounds like you want to believe there's something is making Lindholm not want to sign with us, so you can get him for Trouba.

If Lindholm didn't want to sign with us, he would have asked for a trade by now, but he hasn't. Which means he most likely wants to stay with us.

No Bob is reporting what he is hearing; however, the people feeding him information are not telling him the whole story. There is at least one other issue holding this up which is not being disclosed. Bob is being used to perpetuate myth that is only 250,000 keeping these two apart. Bob has been given a portion of the problem to report on for what ever reason which is the red herring. if you do not like red herring, how about half truth then?

 

[Sojourn]

See above, it means that we are not being told the whole story. They want us to believe it is just salary, that is the red herring.

That makes no sense, and it still says they are being deliberately misleading(that's what a red herring is).

Considering how little information we have, what information are we getting that suggests it is about more than salary? And I'm talking actual information, not your opinion of information that isn't there to begin with.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

No that is not my accusation, the red herring is not from the ducks fans, they are repeating it but it is not from them originally.

Let me try this again.

I am a GM or agent in a process to get a contract for a RFA. As the agent, I am not prepared to pull an Overhart and go public with the real reason my client has not signed. The GM is from a team that gives away very little information about contract talks. Both parties have agreed to not negotiate through the media which is the professional way to do things;however, they both get calls or people inquiring about what is the holdup? You basically have two choices, no comment or tell a half truth to make them go away.

if you say no comment, then the speculation goes wild. If you say it is a difference in salary (which I am sure part of it was at the beginning at least) the reporter goes away a tweets something and you get to kick it down the road a bit.

Yes, I agree salary was an issue and may still be; however, if they were as close as they say to making a deal, they would have made the deal already UNLESS there is another undisclosed issue we do not know about.

The red herring is that it is only the salary causing the problem that was put in the media.

That is an opinion you are entitled to share. It isn't a fact you're entitled to spout as true.

And let me repeat once more...McKenzie doesn't have a dog in any of the fights he comments on. Regardless of how often he is or isn't right, nothing he posits meets the definition of a red herring.

 

[dracom]

What are the other options?
1)Pay to move Bieksa/Stoner: looks bad for a GM that just brought in overpriced contracts.
2)LTIR: If everyone gets healthy at the same time they're worse off then they are now.
3)Trade Vat, not any different then losing 1 of Fowler/Lindholm

So how full of crap am I? Did I miss anything?

1) A team would easily take Stoner if Theo/Larsson/Montour is attached. Murray just doesn't like going that route unless that's the literally last option. Which it isn't just yet.
2) Thompson is still out until the TDL. Despres career may be done at this point or he just needs a month off. Still need to hear back from the specialist before Murray puts him LTIR.
3)Trading Vats does not put us in the same position as losing one of Fowler/Lindholm. Vats can replaced somewhat by Theo or Montour. They won't be as good of course, but he is easier to replace than Fowler/Lindholm.

So yeah, you're full of crap.

 

[aj8000]

That makes no sense, and it still says they are being deliberately misleading(that's what a red herring is).

Considering how little information we have, what information are we getting that suggests it is about more than salary? And I'm talking actual information, not your opinion of information that isn't there to begin with.

We are all speculating here. I am looking at the available information and making a guess on what is happening. I think there is another issue you do not. That is why it is a discussion forum, we all do not need to be in agreement.

 

[dracom]

No Bob is reporting what he is hearing; however, the people feeding him information are not telling him the whole story. There is at least one other issue holding this up which is not being disclosed. Bob is being used to perpetuate myth that is only 250,000 keeping these two apart. Bob has been given a portion of the problem to report on for what ever reason which is the red herring. if you do not like red herring, how about half truth then?

So you don't think Bob is fact checking his report with his sources? You think he hears one thing and just takes it as fact and posts it all over the internet? Bob isn't some random guy on the internet that heard something from someone who might have a connection and posts it all over the internet. You're really start to reach for something that isn't there.

 

[sxvnert]

They didn't sign Bernier, they traded for him and only paid half of what his cap is. Get your facts straight first before trying to stir up imaginary drama.

Leafs didn't retain cap on Bernier. The amount of nhl salary is irrelevant when they're up against the cap.

 

[liquiduck]

No Bob is reporting what he is hearing; however, the people feeding him information are not telling him the whole story. There is at least one other issue holding this up which is not being disclosed. Bob is being used to perpetuate myth that is only 250,000 keeping these two apart. Bob has been given a portion of the problem to report on for what ever reason which is the red herring. if you do not like red herring, how about half truth then?

That sounds like pure conspiracy theory to me. Bob is being used by whom and for what purpose? Anaheim a GM? Lindholms camp?

 

[aj8000]

That is an opinion you are entitled to share. It isn't a fact you're entitled to spout as true.

And let me repeat once more...McKenzie doesn't have a dog in any of the fights he comments on. Regardless of how often he is or isn't right, nothing he posits meets the definition of a red herring.

Fine, you do not want me to use the term red herring. What do you call some one reporting on part only of the issue because he/she has only been told that part of the issue?

 

[aj8000]

That sounds like pure conspiracy theory to me. Bob is being used by whom and for what purpose? Anaheim a GM? Lindholms camp?

No conspiracy, it is called not negotiating in the media.

 

[Sojourn]

We are all speculating here. I am looking at the available information and making a guess on what is happening. I think there is another issue you do not. That is why it is a discussion forum, we all do not need to be in agreement.

And what information is there to suggest that other issue?

That's what I'm asking. You saying that you're looking at the available information and making a guess doesn't answer that. I'm asking you how you got to the answer you did, with the facts we know. Not all speculation is equal, after all. I'm not suggesting my opinion carries more merit, by any means, but speculation based heavily on guessing is obviously not going to be as valid as speculation that comes from facts.

 

[Maukkis]

1) A team would easily take Stoner if Theo/Larsson/Montour is attached. Murray just doesn't like going that route unless that's the literally last option. Which it isn't just yet.
2) Thompson is still out until the TDL. Despres career may be done at this point or he just needs a month off. Still need to hear back from the specialist before Murray puts him LTIR.
3)Trading Vats does not put us in the same position as losing one of Fowler/Lindholm. Vats can replaced somewhat by Theo or Montour. They won't be as good of course, but he is easier to replace than Fowler/Lindholm.

So yeah, you're full of crap.

Bolded statements aren't facts.

I love it how you're trying to prove that he's wrong, yet you have very little facts to back up your claim.

 

[dracom]

Leafs didn't retain cap on Bernier. The amount of nhl salary is irrelevant when they're up against the cap.

Didn't say they retained. just said they are only paying half his cap, since the leafs paid his bonus which left the Ducks only having to pay for like 2.1 million I think. Just correcting the guy said Murray made the signing.

 

[liquiduck]

We are all speculating here. I am looking at the available information and making a guess on what is happening. I think there is another issue you do not. That is why it is a discussion forum, we all do not need to be in agreement.

The issue is your opinion doesent take into account the information that has been released at all. In fact you're dismissing the information entirely and making up another narrative altogether based on basically nothing.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Fine, you do not want me to use the term red herring. What do you call some one reporting on part only of the issue because he/she has only been told that part of the issue?

Either provide proof that there is more to the story or tell us you just think there is more. Stop spouting it like it is fact. It isn't, it's just your opinion which isn't worth any more than anybody else's.

 

[liquiduck]

No conspiracy, it is called not negotiating in the media.

So you're saying they are still negotiating.... Which is what I've been saying the whole time. What exactly is your stance again?

 

[Caesium]

Didn't say they retained. just said they are only paying half his cap, since the leafs paid his bonus which left the Ducks only having to pay for like 2.1 million I think. Just correcting the guy said Murray made the signing.

The Leafs paid Bernier's $2M signing bonus, so Anaheim is only paying him $2M, but his entire cap hit of $4M goes against Anaheim's cap.

 

[aj8000]

So you don't think Bob is fact checking his report with his sources? You think he hears one thing and just takes it as fact and posts it all over the internet? Bob isn't some random guy on the internet that heard something from someone who might have a connection and posts it all over the internet. You're really start to reach for something that isn't there.

Really, he is reporting what he is hearing, that does not mean he is hearing everything. I do not care how connected he is, he will only be told what the parties involved want him to hear.

There have been reports that Lindholm and the ducks are close to the dollar amount;
there have been reports that the ducks need to dump salary to sign Lindholm;
It does not take a rocket scientist to look at cap Friendly to see that the ducks have a cap problem;

Put it together and it shows that the ducks management dropped the ball and it will cost them to get out of it since there is very little free cap space sitting out in the market to solve the problem the ducks have.

Do you really expect the ducks management to tell Bob that teh reason they have not signed Lindholm is because or GM crapped teh bed with the salary cap? No they are going to say that they have not agreed to price check with us later.

 

[aj8000]

Either provide proof that there is more to the story or tell us you just think there is more. Stop spouting it like it is fact. It isn't, it's just your opinion which isn't worth any more than anybody else's.

Everyone spouts things like fact here but we are all speculating. My real goal is to keep this tread front and center so maybe the speculation on the Trouba thread will fall to the second page

 

[Sojourn]

Everyone spouts things like fact here but we are all speculating. My real goal is to keep this tread front and center so maybe the speculation on the Trouba thread will fall to the second page

...then you're the one with the red herring.

I hope you realize that.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Everyone spouts things like fact here but we are all speculating. My real goal is to keep this tread front and center so maybe the speculation on the Trouba thread will fall to the second page

Some of what is said here is speculating, some is fact, some is quoting insiders. All of it is fine in context. Trying to pass off you opinion as a fact is ********.

And regardless of your efforts here, it won't make your Trouba problem disappear.

 

[dracom]

The Leafs paid Bernier's $2M signing bonus, so Anaheim is only paying him $2M, but his entire cap hit of $4M goes against Anaheim's cap.

Yes, I know. The other poster was talking about how Murray overpaid for Bernier, as in signed him to his current deal. He didn't, I was correcting him that he traded for him and only paid 2 million (roughly half his cap hit) so he saving actual money which is always helpful.

Really, he is reporting what he is hearing, that does not mean he is hearing everything. I do not care how connected he is, he will only be told what the parties involved want him to hear.

There have been reports that Lindholm and the ducks are close to the dollar amount;
there have been reports that the ducks need to dump salary to sign Lindholm;
It does not take a rocket scientist to look at cap Friendly to see that the ducks have a cap problem;

Put it together and it shows that the ducks management dropped the ball and it will cost them to get out of it since there is very little free cap space sitting out in the market to solve the problem the ducks have.

Do you really expect the ducks management to tell Bob that teh reason they have not signed Lindholm is because or GM crapped teh bed with the salary cap? No they are going to say that they have not agreed to price check with us later.

Bob is reporting the money he is hearing, that has nothing to do with anything else. All we've been talking about with regards to Bob's report is the money. We're not talking about anything other than the money, which you keep believing isn't true because of...conspiracy?

The rest of your comment has nothing to do with my post about Bob's report on the money. We know Murray has screwed up the cap. We know we'll most likely have to make a trade that hurts in order to get Lindholm signed.

I'm shocked you think the Ducks organization is telling Bob what the contract situation is. Even if they did, you think they would just lie about the money? Again, you're reaching for something that isn't there.