Speculation: The Quest to sign Lindholm: Part II

[Sojourn]

What are the other options?
1)Pay to move Bieksa/Stoner: looks bad for a GM that just brought in overpriced contracts.
2)LTIR: If everyone gets healthy at the same time they're worse off then they are now.
3)Trade Vat, not any different then losing 1 of Fowler/Lindholm

So how full of crap am I? Did I miss anything?

Seems to me you answered your own question on how full of crap you are: very.

You just listed a couple of options, and then immediately dismissed them. Not because they don't work, but because they don't fit with your goal of proving the team can't have Fowler and Lindholm, this season.

Case in point? #3.

 

[Sojourn]

Ducks have about 300K space right now.
https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/ducks

They need 5-6M to sign Lindholm. They have to cut that money out of the roster somewhere.

See above. None of this suggests that the team can't have both of those two players.

The bottom line is that the burden of proof here is on you, and you aren't proving your statement. You're just showing it's a possibility.

 

[liquiduck]

Yes they can if they are as good as Ducks fans say lindholm is

How good is that? Lindholm isn't worth handcuffing the rest of the team. Most of Lindholm's hype is based purely off potential. As of right now he's a good young 2/3 defensemen. Very good player, but not the kind of player that holds a team hostage. Which is why Lindholm is sitting in Sweden right now losing money everyday while Anaheim is playing hockey games.

 

[CaptainChef]

So the team is just supposed to wait for Lindholm and his agent before they sign other people? Because that makes sense? Why aren't people saying maybe Lindholm should've resigned back in July or August? There's two sides of the coin here, but opposing fans only focus on one side. BM and HL simply haven't agreed to a contract yet. Lemieux isn't helping the situation any.

The team felt they needed another semi capable goalie behind Gibson given his inexperience and injury history. Stoner was signed before Vats, Lindholm, Manson, Theodore, Montour, and Larsson were even in the conversation of being impact players with the ducks. Bieksa's extension was a mistake. They happen. The team obviously felt like he was still a capable player, and for all the crap he gets, he still played a top 4 role last year on a pretty good defense. He's more of a #5 now. Why did the Rangers hand Girardi his current contract? GM's aren't perfect.

Wow, just can't see much to defend him on. You don't go out & make those huge signings when you are close to the cap and have two key RFAs still to sign. Bieksa in itself seems like a fireable offense (totally unneeded as I see it & to give him a NMC in the process). Any to pay 4.0 or whatever it was for a backup when your cash-strapped.

A summer from hell for the GM and a lot of it self inflicted.

 

[McXLNC97]

Murray will cave eventually...that 30k cap hit each day Lindholm's not signed is eventually going to become too much

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Yes, I have heard that from Ducks fans several times; however, I believe that it is a red herring. If the ducks were in a position to sign Lindholm in respect to cap space and budget, the so called 250,000 difference would have disappeared faster then it took me to type this response. You are welcome to keep believing that this is about the contract difference of 250,000 causing the delay in signing; however, if you really thought about it, there is a major issue here that is keeping the Ducks from making a deal. It is not public yet, but we will have a general idea of what it is before December 1.

If you're paying attention, you would be hearing it from Bob McKenzie, first and foremost. It's hardly a red herring coming from him.

 

[liquiduck]

Wow, just can't see much to defend him on. You don't go out & make those huge signings when you are close to the cap and have two key RFAs still to sign. Bieksa in itself seems like a fireable offense (totally unneeded as I see it & to give him a NMC in the process). Any to pay 4.0 or whatever it was for a backup when your cash-strapped.

A summer from hell for the GM and a lot of it self inflicted.

Bieksa's extension was made before last season started as part of the deal to get himn to waive his NMC from Vancouver. The team felt they needed another veteran to replace beauchemin. The miscalculation was the role he'd actually have here. The team also didn't know Manson would emerge the way he did. He kind of came out of nowhere last season. What other huge signing was there?

 

[aj8000]

How good is that? Lindholm isn't worth handcuffing the rest of the team. Most of Lindholm's hype is based purely off potential. As of right now he's a good young 2/3 defensemen. Very good player, but not the kind of player that holds a team hostage. Which is why Lindholm is sitting in Sweden right now losing money everyday while Anaheim is playing hockey games.

So what are you saying? He is holding the team hostage so to get even they go out and sign away all their cap space so it is impossible to sign him when he does come to his senses without having to do a cap dump that could negatively affect the team in the long run? Is their plan to let him sit for the season because he dared to hold the team hostage?

Plain and simple, they should have saved the cap space under the assumption he would have changed his mind just before the season started and it is management incompetence that they are in this situation now.

 

[Trolfoli]

Seems to me you answered your own question on how full of crap you are: very.

You just listed a couple of options, and then immediately dismissed them. Not because they don't work, but because they don't fit with your goal of proving the team can't have Fowler and Lindholm, this season.

Case in point? #3.

Do you think LTIR is an option?

Who takes Vats position on the right? As both Lindholm & Fowler are left handed it would make more sense that one of the LHD is moved and not the RHD.

We are dealing with probabilities. The most probable outcome is one of Folwer or Lindholm to be moved at this point.

-GM isn't going to want to pay to clean up his garbage. It looks bad (Bieksa/Stoner)
-Vat is unlikely due to the RHD, and Theo/Lars are LHD. Montour is RHD, but may be further away. Ducks have more depth at left.

Then the question is between Fowler or Lindholm. Personally I think Lindholm gets moved because he'll get a better return then Fowler.

It isn't that hard. There is a better chance of the Ducks losing one of Fowler or Lindholm then keeping both.

 

[Trolfoli]

See above. None of this suggests that the team can't have both of those two players.

The bottom line is that the burden of proof here is on you, and you aren't proving your statement. You're just showing it's a possibility.

Ok. Show me with the cap how you fit both Fowler & Lindholm on the team. Then if the GM would see that as an option. As in it makes the team better then moving one of Fowler or Lindholm. Can you prove your statement?

 

[aj8000]

If you're paying attention, you would be hearing it from Bob McKenzie, first and foremost. It's hardly a red herring coming from him.

Really, Bob McKenzie said it!!!, well my whole premise is wrong then!!!!

Seriously, Bob Mckenzie can be wrong like everyone else.

 

[Sojourn]

Do you think LTIR is an option?

Who takes Vats position on the right? As both Lindholm & Fowler are left handed it would make more sense that one of the LHD is moved and not the RHD.

We are dealing with probabilities. The most probable outcome is one of Folwer or Lindholm to be moved at this point.

-GM isn't going to want to pay to clean up his garbage. It looks bad (Bieksa/Stoner)
-Vat is unlikely due to the RHD, and Theo/Lars are LHD. Montour is RHD, but may be further away. Ducks have more depth at left.

Then the question is between Fowler or Lindholm. Personally I think Lindholm gets moved because he'll get a better return then Fowler.

It isn't that hard. There is a better chance of the Ducks losing one of Fowler or Lindholm then keeping both.

No, you were dealing with absolutes. I'm dealing with possibilities.

LTIR, for example, is definitely a possibility. A player who has had long-term concussion issues, and a torn Achilles? Not really a high risk to return soon.

 

[Sojourn]

Ok. Show me with the cap how you fit both Fowler & Lindholm on the team. Then if the GM would see that as an option. As in it makes the team better then moving one of Fowler or Lindholm. Can you prove your statement?

I don't need to prove my statement. I just need to show it's possible.

And the fact you're putting all of these limitations on what I can apparently do to prove my point, goes to show that you don't have much to stand on.

 

[liquiduck]

Do you think LTIR is an option?

Who takes Vats position on the right? As both Lindholm & Fowler are left handed it would make more sense that one of the LHD is moved and not the RHD.

We are dealing with probabilities. The most probable outcome is one of Folwer or Lindholm to be moved at this point.

-GM isn't going to want to pay to clean up his garbage. It looks bad (Bieksa/Stoner)
-Vat is unlikely due to the RHD, and Theo/Lars are LHD. Montour is RHD, but may be further away. Ducks have more depth at left.

Then the question is between Fowler or Lindholm. Personally I think Lindholm gets moved because he'll get a better return then Fowler.

It isn't that hard. There is a better chance of the Ducks losing one of Fowler or Lindholm then keeping both.

Theo plays the right side just fine. Montour is also an option. Vats is better than both, by a good margin too, but Fowler is better than Vatanen so the tradeoff is viable.

LTIR is an option if Despres is out long term. That's a very real possibility right now. The worst part about that would be the cap overages for next season, with no real money coming off the books. But then again it also gives BM time to cleanup his mess with the Stoner and Bieksa contracts. At rhe very least it gives BM a whole lot more leverage as holes open up on bluelines around the league.

 

[Sojourn]

Really, Bob McKenzie said it!!!, well my whole premise is wrong then!!!!

Seriously, Bob Mckenzie can be wrong like everyone else.

He can be, but it's still information. Do you conflicting information? If not, what's the problem?

 

[liquiduck]

So what are you saying? He is holding the team hostage so to get even they go out and sign away all their cap space so it is impossible to sign him when he does come to his senses without having to do a cap dump that could negatively affect the team in the long run? Is their plan to let him sit for the season because he dared to hold the team hostage?

Plain and simple, they should have saved the cap space under the assumption he would have changed his mind just before the season started and it is management incompetence that they are in this situation now.

I'm saying that he had an offer on the table all summer and he refused to sign. In the meantime other holes needed to be filled.

 

[PaulGG]

Im sure it doesn't sit well with him. Unfortunalty for him he doesn't really have a choice if he wants to play in the NHL.

Yeah, Just like every other RFA before him some of which are as good or better than he. It is unfortunate for the player but is a negotiated union agreement. Hard to feel too sorry for a guy who will get a raise to around 5M/yr.

 

[aj8000]

He can be, but it's still information. Do you conflicting information? If not, what's the problem?

I do not have a problem at all. I am looking at what has actually occurred and what little information we have got through the media and feel that something is up other than just a small difference in salary.

If you want to take what the media says as verbatum and ignore the signs that indicate there is a problem that is your choice.

 

[aj8000]

I'm saying that he had an offer on the table all summer and he refused to sign. In the meantime other holes needed to be filled.

Sure, and the proper course of action would be to sign cheaper plugs and/or use cheap players in the system to keep enough cap space to sign Lindholm since you know he really has no choice but to sign. I am surprised you are arguing with me that spending the cap space before signing Lindholm was a good idea.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Really, Bob McKenzie said it!!!, well my whole premise is wrong then!!!!

Seriously, Bob Mckenzie can be wrong like everyone else.

Sure he can. But it totally invalidates your accusation that it is a red herring thrown out by Ducks fans. Which was exactly my point.

 

[liquiduck]

Sure, and the proper course of action would be to sign cheaper plugs and/or use cheap players in the system to keep enough cap space to sign Lindholm since you know he really has no choice but to sign. I am surprised you are arguing with me that spending the cap space before signing Lindholm was a good idea.

And do what with Rakell and Vatanen in the meantime? Nothing? They're good players too. And they actually signed deals so they could start playing hockey. Lindholm still has to sign. Unless he wants to continue his hokcey career on a different continent.

 

[Sojourn]

I do not have a problem at all. I am looking at what has actually occurred and what little information we have got through the media and feel that something is up other than just a small difference in salary.

If you want to take what the media says as verbatum and ignore the signs that indicate there is a problem that is your choice.

I'm not ignoring anything, but those signs you're seeing are a matter of opinion, not fact. If McKenzie is reporting those numbers, he's getting them from somewhere, or he'd be stating outright it's his opinion. He's pretty good at making that distinction clear.

You're saying we are getting little information, but that is information. If you're passing it off as a red herring, you're dismissing some of the little information we are actually getting, because it doesn't mesh with your opinion of whatever you think is going on. I just don't see how that works, and how any of it suggests it's a red herring. It could be incorrect information, sure, but a red herring? No. That means the number is deliberately misleading.

 

[dracom]

Bob Murray should be fined by NHL for not allowing one of the better D-men in the league to play as a result of his extremely poor planning

Well this is the dumbest thing I've seen in this thread.

 

[aj8000]

Sure he can. But it totally invalidates your accusation that it is a red herring thrown out by Ducks fans. Which was exactly my point.

No that is not my accusation, the red herring is not from the ducks fans, they are repeating it but it is not from them originally.

Let me try this again.

I am a GM or agent in a process to get a contract for a RFA. As the agent, I am not prepared to pull an Overhart and go public with the real reason my client has not signed. The GM is from a team that gives away very little information about contract talks. Both parties have agreed to not negotiate through the media which is the professional way to do things;however, they both get calls or people inquiring about what is the holdup? You basically have two choices, no comment or tell a half truth to make them go away.

if you say no comment, then the speculation goes wild. If you say it is a difference in salary (which I am sure part of it was at the beginning at least) the reporter goes away a tweets something and you get to kick it down the road a bit.

Yes, I agree salary was an issue and may still be; however, if they were as close as they say to making a deal, they would have made the deal already UNLESS there is another undisclosed issue we do not know about.

The red herring is that it is only the salary causing the problem that was put in the media.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

McKenzie doesn't have a dog in any of the fights he comments on. Regardless of how often he is or isn't right, nothing he posits meets the definition of a red herring.