OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Whats a Running Back? Does it make the Steel Steeler?

[xlm34]

Circling back -

On 2nd and 7-9 -

Harris has 27 carries for 70 yards

Warren has 6 carries for 59 yards

That right there is half the difference in their stats.

And got to think there's a very big difference in how they were being used there. Like Warren is being used sparingly on option reads against teams that have sold out on the pass and that Harris is being used to inch back to within 3rd & medium/short in the safest way possible and who cares if the entire opposition is waiting for it.

You'd have to watch a lot of video to be sure of it, but it feels like there's got to be something there.

Ok and one of those runs from Warren was actually a jet sweep against the Ravens with Najee in the backfield that went for 31 yards.

I think you said it. If we’re looking at just YPC, the sample size is the biggest factor. 77 carries isn’t nothing, but if you double or even give him a Najee level workload, I would say there’s virtually no chance he’s maintaining his current YPC. Not sure if he goes below 4 but it also wouldn’t shock me if he did.

 

[Andy99]

How is it all Harris when the stats show the team blocked far worse in front of him than they did other players?

And it's clearly not an automatic passing down, or teams wouldn't be waiting for Harris' run on 2nd and 7-9.

It’s on the O line, scheme and Harris…I believe teams knew exactly when the Steelers would run based on how the Online set up…but even so, they did not block worse in front of Harris…what happened is that Harris has no vision and can not adjust where he runs when the other team keys on the blocks because they know it’s a run…Warren on the other hand would be able to find another hole

 

[Peat]

It’s on the O line, scheme and Harris…I believe teams knew exactly when the Steelers would run based on how the Online set up…but even so, they did not block worse in front of Harris…what happened is that Harris has no vision and can not adjust where he runs when the other team keys on the blocks because they know it’s a run…Warren on the other hand would be able to find another hole

Except that Warren has had far less obvious run work, and his stats in most of those situations are worse.

If you want to put it on teams knowing exactly when the Steelers would run rather than the actual blocking work, that makes sense.

But the idea that Warren is better in those situations, rather than not exposed to them? I don't think so.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Stats can show us part of the picture, but they can’t really account for Warren’s lack of rhythm every game, which is a pretty big issue.

Any good back will tell you they need to find their rhythm to be effective, and it’s difficult at best for any back to do that with only 5-10 touches a game.

So that’s a pretty significant variable Warren operates under that is hard to quantify.

Stats also can’t account for Warren’s durability to handle the bell cow role.

He had 275 touches or so his last college season, but that’s about all the hard info we have.

 

[Andy99]

Except that Warren has had far less obvious run work, and his stats in most of those situations are worse.

If you want to put it on teams knowing exactly when the Steelers would run rather than the actual blocking work, that makes sense.

But the idea that Warren is better in those situations, rather than not exposed to them? I don't think so.

I mean we don’t know if he’d be better, I’m just guessing, but it’s an educated guess based on the fact that he seems to read defenses better and can hit the hole quicker…it would actually require the coach to try it out, but given who our coach is, I’m not expecting any out of the box thinking lol…

 

[JTG]

Neither Najee or Warren have elite vision. Warren does the damage he does because he's decisive. He doesn't dance around, and when a hole comes up he hits it. He doesn't run into the backs of his linemen.

 

[TooManyHumans]

I am not sure why Steelers fans are so hellbent on defending Harris at the expense of Warren. Setting aside their histories, Warren has clearly looked better. I am ok with Harris being the starter but the carries ought to be pretty damn close to even between them. Warren has earned it and Harris has done nothing to stave him off.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

I am not sure why Steelers fans are so hellbent on defending Harris at the expense of Warren. Setting aside their histories, Warren has clearly looked better. I am ok with Harris being the starter but the carries ought to be pretty damn close to even between them. Warren has earned it and Harris has done nothing to stave him off.

It’s going to be 60/40 split

 

[JTG]

 

[JTG]

I am not sure why Steelers fans are so hellbent on defending Harris at the expense of Warren. Setting aside their histories, Warren has clearly looked better. I am ok with Harris being the starter but the carries ought to be pretty damn close to even between them. Warren has earned it and Harris has done nothing to stave him off.

The thing I'm not really understanding are people saying how Warren is a "change of pace back." He's really not. Both have similar speed and similar styles. Short RB =/= change of pace back. Warren even in college was a between the tackle rhythm runner. That is also what Najee is. They will wear you down.

McFarland is definitely a change of pace guy, but in his 4th season, I'm still not seeing much of an NFL RB there.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I can’t see Washington getting 600 yards.

They have way too many weapons to get the rock in their hands.

Not sure Canada is creative enough to figure it all out, but if Washington doesn’t become a force in the red zone, that will be straight malpractice by Tomlin and the OC.

 

[Peat]

I am not sure why Steelers fans are so hellbent on defending Harris at the expense of Warren. Setting aside their histories, Warren has clearly looked better. I am ok with Harris being the starter but the carries ought to be pretty damn close to even between them. Warren has earned it and Harris has done nothing to stave him off.

I just haven't seen this Warren.

And that's not because I'm a big Harris fan or anything.

I just have not seen Warren be this all-singing, all-dancing, major threat. I have seen him do things well, I have seen him do some things better than Harris, but I haven't seen him do all things better than Harris and I haven't seen him be so majorly good as what he does I'm busting a gut to get him on the field. It's great he ran past a 32 year old safety but I'm not expecting him to regularly take plays to the house as a result. I don't think he has that long speed or ability to break tackles.

For the work to be even, Warren needs to start eating into Harris' 2nd & short, 1st & 10 work. Statistically, he hasn't earned that. I don't think Harris has done a huge amount to stave Warren off from taking that work either... yet Warren hasn't earned it.

When Warren starts carrying as well in those situations, I'll support him threatening lead back status. But he's got to start doing that first. There's just not enough of the work Warren is good at for it to be otherwise.

 

[Monkey D Luffy]

Simple answer: Have Warren play in more obvious run downs and Harris play on more passing downs.

Mix themboth to spell the other.

Not really interested in who's better conversation. Both are worthy of playing time. ~70% Harris 30% Warren, if one's on fire keep riding them.

 

[JTG]

I can’t see Washington getting 600 yards.

They have way too many weapons to get the rock in their hands.

Not sure Canada is creative enough to figure it all out, but if Washington doesn’t become a force in the red zone, that will be straight malpractice by Tomlin and the OC.

Yeah, if he gets 600 yards, I think we have a TE1 battle also. I could see Washington having really decent TD totals though. He'd definitely going to get a ton of work in the redzone both as a blocker and a catcher.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Yeah, if he gets 600 yards, I think we have a TE1 battle also. I could see Washington having really decent TD totals though. He'd definitely going to get a ton of work in the redzone both as a blocker and a catcher.

Depends on how many td pass you think KP is going to throw. Do you think he goes from 7 to 25.
GP will probably get double digits DJ will have 8.

 

[JTG]

Depends on how many td pass you think KP is going to throw. Do you think he goes from 7 to 25.
GP will probably get double digits DJ will have 8.

DJ just had 0. I'm not sure DJ and Kenny will ever have that sort of chemistry, honestly where DJ is going to be around 8 TDs.

I think Pickens has 8-10. I think Freiermuth has 7-9. DJ 3-5. Najee and Warren combined will have 5-7. Heyward will have 1-3. Austin will have 1-3.

If Washington isn't look 1 in the red zone, that's a waste of a 6'7 guy with 3 foot arms and a 30+ inch vertical. That is almost always going to be our best matchup. I do expect Kenny to be in the mid-20's for TDs. If he's not, we have a QB or OC problem. A BIG QB or OC problem.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

DJ just had 0. I'm not sure DJ and Kenny will ever have that sort of chemistry, honestly where DJ is going to be around 8 TDs.

I think Pickens has 8-10. I think Freiermuth has 7-9. DJ 3-5. Najee and Warren combined will have 5-7. Heyward will have 1-3. Austin will have 1-3.

If Washington isn't look 1 in the red zone, that's a waste of a 6'7 guy with 3 foot arms and a 30+ inch vertical. That is almost always going to be our best matchup. I do expect Kenny to be in the mid-20's for TDs. If he's not, we have a QB or OC problem. A BIG QB or OC problem.

I fully expect Redzone to go Muth GP and Robinson. Washington is extremely raw he isn’t going to do much route running sure they could flex him and Heyward out.
Going by your numbers 25 tds floor to guys not name washington

 

[JTG]

I fully expect Redzone to go Muth GP and Robinson. Washington is extremely raw he isn’t going to do much route running sure they could flex him and Heyward out.
Going by your numbers 25 tds floor to guys not name washington

They have have him running routes in preseason. He was actually wide open last game 20 yards down the field after doing a nice swim move to make a MLB whiff, and he had 2 steps on the guy covering him. Trubisky tried hitting Austin down the sideline.

He is raw, but it would be a complete wasted opportunity not to develop the guy and get him the ball. If he develops, we don't have to pay Muth. If Warren develops, we don't have to pay Najee. If Jones develops, we don't have to pay Moore. Rather than getting bent over the barrel by these guys on their 2nd and 3rd deals, this coaching staff needs to get these guys developed, and let the higher priced guys walk or trade them.

 

[xlm34]

I’d be very against potentially not paying Muth unless his concussions cause issues. I’d have to try to find the comparison but his first two years were on par with Kelce and Andrews.

I think if Pickett takes a step he could legitimately turn in to a top 5 TE.

 

[Monkey D Luffy]

Kenny looks ultra-poised in the pocket and more athletic than last year.

He's always been smart, hopefully, he puts it all together this year.

 

[JTG]

Kenny looks ultra-poised in the pocket and more athletic than last year.

He's always been smart, hopefully, he puts it all together this year.

He really does look amazingly poised and confident. Week 1 is going to be a really good litmus test of where he's at facing Hargrave, Bosa, Warner and crew.

 

[JTG]

I'm really curious as to who the two staring MLBs will be because right now I think Holcomb, Roberts, and Alexander have all played like starters. Alexander is a cruise missile.

I have also been looking at who is potentially getting cut. I think Kendrick Green is finally gone. I think Gentry is gone. Tre Norwood is going to get cut, which is kind of surprising considering he was so good his rookie year. Riley has been better (and healthier) than him.

There is a rumor that Philly may be cutting Edmunds. Could be a huge land for us if they do cut him.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I hope I’m wrong but I think Robinson is a possible cut. Coaching staff doesn’t seem to like him as much as the fans. Do they historically carry 5 ILBs?

Imo Gunner will be on the roster with another solid game barring outside additions. Gentry is def on the bubble.

Super curious as to Watts v. Loudermilk and how the CB room shakes out. Cornerback in particular seems ripe for outside addition.

I know nothing about oline play and technique but wanna watch Cook tonight. He’s getting projected on the 53 by SteelersDepot.

 

[JTG]

I hope I’m wrong but I think Robinson is a possible cut. Coaching staff doesn’t seem to like him as much as the fans. Do they historically carry 5 ILBs?

Imo Gunner will be on the roster with another solid game barring outside additions. Gentry is def on the bubble.

Super curious as to Watts v. Loudermilk and how the CB room shakes out. Cornerback in particular seems ripe for outside addition.

I know nothing about oline play and technique but wanna watch Cook tonight. He’s getting projected on the 53 by SteelersDepot.

I think there is a 0% chance Robinson is cut. They will have Holcomb, Roberts, Alexander, and Robinson at MLB. I think Loudermilk has shown enough, and they traded up for him, so I see him making the team. I think Watts is cut. 4th CB will be Pierre, unless they can find an upgrade.

 

[TooManyHumans]

I just haven't seen this Warren.

And that's not because I'm a big Harris fan or anything.

I just have not seen Warren be this all-singing, all-dancing, major threat. I have seen him do things well, I have seen him do some things better than Harris, but I haven't seen him do all things better than Harris and I haven't seen him be so majorly good as what he does I'm busting a gut to get him on the field. It's great he ran past a 32 year old safety but I'm not expecting him to regularly take plays to the house as a result. I don't think he has that long speed or ability to break tackles.

For the work to be even, Warren needs to start eating into Harris' 2nd & short, 1st & 10 work. Statistically, he hasn't earned that. I don't think Harris has done a huge amount to stave Warren off from taking that work either... yet Warren hasn't earned it.

When Warren starts carrying as well in those situations, I'll support him threatening lead back status. But he's got to start doing that first. There's just not enough of the work Warren is good at for it to be otherwise.

What does Najee do better than Warren? I would give him the nod as a receiver and that is it. Now, he has proven he can carry the main load and Warren has not. However, I am not comfortable saying Warren can't do it because he never got the chance. Otherwise I am not sure what Najee does better.