OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Whats a Running Back? Does it make the Steel Steeler?

[Deport Ogie]

PSU fans are infinitely more douchey than OSU fans, and that's really saying something.

Hey now let's not....let's not put things out in the universe we can't take back. We can be pretty douchey for sure but I've yet to hear a PSU fan over-emphasis a definite article to make ourselves feel more special.

 

[Andy99]

I feel like he’s consistent, but lacks explosive plays.

He only had one run over 20 yards last season, and Warren had 3… with 200 less carries.

Basically if Warren had the same amount of carries, he would have likely ripped off 10+ 20 yard plays.

That’s pretty eye popping.

It’s why I keep emphasizing that he has to get his YPC up higher, which is basically another way of saying he needs to rip off more explosive runs.

I don’t think Najee can get his YPC up…his vision sucks and he’s not fast…he maybe able to fall forward better however, and perhaps that’s what you meant lol

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I don’t think Najee can get his YPC up…his vision sucks and he’s not fast…he maybe able to fall forward better however, and perhaps that’s what you meant lol

No I mean he needs to rip off longer runs.

1 20+ run with like 270+ carries is unacceptable.

I’m not expecting 50-60 yard runs from him, but it’s more than reasonable to expect 6-8 runs between 20-30 yards from a top back.

He doesn’t have to have a top gear to accomplish that.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Last game didn't really change how I feel about Warren/Harris.

Warren does great stuff working outside the tackles, on third downs, and so on. Keep giving him work there. I don't think Harris is incompetent there or anything, but you don't want to pile everything on one guy.

For Warren to really eat into Harris' workload he needs to either

a) Show he can run just as well between the tackles, into the heavy traffic, do all that tone setting, attritional stuff that Tomlin loves so much

or

b) Somehow persuade Tomlin they shouldn't be doing that so much and should be running the sort of offence where it makes more sense to give him early down work.

And for all that this offence is looking best when they lean on Pickett right now, good luck with B and maybe that's how it should be. You don't want to super lean on Pickett if you can help it until he demands it.

As for A... I just don't think I've seen Warren do that well. When Harris got hurt, iirc, they gave all that stuff to Benny Snell. Now, you can question how well Harris does it with some validity. You can question whether he should have invested in a RB rather than the OL in terms of trying to do that. But I don't think any of that makes Warren the answer that starts eating Harris' workload in the ground n' pound game.

And maybe I'm wrong, but until I see it, I won't be expecting it.

To add even further context, below is a comment lifted from BTSC. I’m super excited about Warren and am rooting for both of them. But before betting it all on Warren it’s important to recognize:

“Warren's splits last year by down/distance:

1st down: 3.3 yards/carry (36 carries)
2nd down, 1-3 yards to go: 3.8 yards/carry
2nd down, 4-6 yards to go: 6.1 yards/carry
2nd down, 7-9 yards to go: 9.8 yards/carry
2nd down, 10+ yards to go: 6.4 yards/carry
3rd down, 1-3 yards to go: -2 yards/carry (on one carry)
3rd down, 7-9 yards to go: 21 yards/carry (on one carry)
4th down: 2 carries, 5 yards

Warren did his damage on passing downs. In early downs, he was worse than Harris (4 yards/carry on 1st and 10, 4.8 yards/carry on 2nd and 1-3 yards).”

 

[JTG]

Hey now let's not....let's not put things out in the universe we can't take back. We can be pretty douchey for sure but I've yet to hear a PSU fan over-emphasis a definite article to make ourselves feel more special.

I don't know what your eluding to, but I do remember when there was a rape allegation and people still want to die on the hill that Joe didn't know what was going on.

To add even further context, below is a comment lifted from BTSC. I’m super excited about Warren and am rooting for both of them. But before betting it all on Warren it’s important to recognize:

“Warren's splits last year by down/distance:

1st down: 3.3 yards/carry (36 carries)
2nd down, 1-3 yards to go: 3.8 yards/carry
2nd down, 4-6 yards to go: 6.1 yards/carry
2nd down, 7-9 yards to go: 9.8 yards/carry
2nd down, 10+ yards to go: 6.4 yards/carry
3rd down, 1-3 yards to go: -2 yards/carry (on one carry)
3rd down, 7-9 yards to go: 21 yards/carry (on one carry)
4th down: 2 carries, 5 yards

Warren did his damage on passing downs. In early downs, he was worse than Harris (4 yards/carry on 1st and 10, 4.8 yards/carry on 2nd and 1-3 yards).”

To be fair, Warren doesn't get almost any work on early downs.

 

[Factorial]

Yeah the funny part is that I actually went to PSU myself lol. Freshman year was when they renewed the rivalry and Pitt won. Great game.

I am as well but was never interested in college football. It's like a religion there as we saw in the recent past.

 

[UnrealMachine]

To be fair, Warren doesn't get almost any work on early downs.

Hopefully he gets more this season and pretty much still performs the same otherwise! And outside of rushing the early returns on his receiving and blocking abilities are very good!

 

[pistolpete11]

There's no doubt a difference between being the workhorse starting RB and just being used situationally, but unless Harris' results start to improve, the line between who's the starter and who's the back up shouldn't be so clear.

 

[xlm34]

Steelers Film Room: Joey Porter Jr. Flashes Press Corner Potential

This was a good read on Porter Jr’s debut.

 

[Andy99]

No I mean he needs to rip off longer runs.

1 20+ run with like 270+ carries is unacceptable.

I’m not expecting 50-60 yard runs from him, but it’s more than reasonable to expect 6-8 runs between 20-30 yards from a top back.

He doesn’t have to have a top gear to accomplish that.

Uh, I think you think Najee is a lot more talented than he really is, either that or our O-line and scheme is better at run blocking/design than they are…I don’t think we’re particularly good at the latter and that Najee can’t make anything on his own or hit a small hole hard enough to make more yards out of it…he’s very limited as a runner

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Uh, I think you think Najee is a lot more talented than he really is, either that or our O-line and scheme is better at run blocking/design than they are…I don’t think we’re particularly good at the latter and that Najee can’t make anything on his own or hit a small hole hard enough to make more yards out of it…he’s very limited as a runner

It’s nothing scheme related or on the o-line.

Harris had 6 20+ runs his rookie year, so again, I don’t feel it’s asking too much of him to add a few more to that number.

He’s certainly fast enough to break off more than one 20+ yard run in a season.

 

[Peat]

The more Warren eats into Harris' passing down work, and leaves him with just the charging between the tackles, the less likely it is Harris is going to have a bunch of explosive runs, no?

 

[Pens1566]

It’s nothing scheme related or on the o-line.

Harris had 6 20+ runs his rookie year, so again, I don’t feel it’s asking too much of him to add a few more to that number.

He’s certainly fast enough to break off more than one 20+ yard run in a season.

This ^. Harris had plenty of big holes last year. He just ran into contact instead.

 

[wheelz87]

So… Najee + what for Taylor lol.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

The more Warren eats into Harris' passing down work, and leaves him with just the charging between the tackles, the less likely it is Harris is going to have a bunch of explosive runs, no?

That all depends on Harris really.

If he’s not providing big plays again, Warren will keep eating up more of his snaps.

 

[Andy99]

This ^. Harris had plenty of big holes last year. He just ran into contact instead.

And this is why I don’t think he has anymore to give after 2 seasons of watching this, unlike Jiggy

 

[PensandCaps]

If the Steelers gameplan around Pickens and Muth, they'll go places. If Canada is still drawing up every play to go to DJ, and is insistent on Harris being the guy no matter what, then the season will be a long long drag.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

And this is why I don’t think he has anymore to give after 2 seasons of watching this, unlike Jiggy

You are misconstruing what I wrote.

Everything I have written is not an endorsement of Harris being their bell cow, but what I expect from him if Tomlin dubs him so.

I don’t think anything I wrote is unreasonable to expect from Harris, and given he showed his rookie year he has enough speed to rip off bigger chunks, it’s more than fair to expect him to up his YPC.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Not trying to be reactionary or hot takey but on pure eye test Warren is just a better football player than Najee. Gets to second level quicker, faster, quicker overall, more explosive athlete, better blocker, better route runner, lower center of gravity.

Najee is still a great player, has great hands and is bigger and stronger.

I think Najee is great for wearing teams down between the tackles over the course of a game and in RZ like we saw late last year. Warren is a bit more versatile and every down type IMO. I hope they use both guys often.

 

[Peat]

Not trying to be reactionary or hot takey but on pure eye test Warren is just a better football player than Najee. Gets to second level quicker, faster, quicker overall, better blocker, better route runner, lower center of gravity.

Najee is still a great player, has great hands and is bigger and stronger.

I think Najee is great for wearing teams down between the tackles over the course of a game and in RZ like we saw late last year. Warren is a bit more versatile and every down type IMO. I hope they use both guys often.

That, in itself, depending on how you mean often, offers another question. How much of the work do you want Harris and Warren getting over Pickett throwing it? Because without calling for Pickett to throw it 35 times a game, I know what our most effective weapon looks like right now...

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

That, in itself, depending on how you mean often, offers another question. How much of the work do you want Harris and Warren getting over Pickett throwing it? Because without calling for Pickett to throw it 35 times a game, I know what our most effective weapon looks like right now...

I think you can both take diapers off Kenny and maintain balance in rushing/passing. Not as concerned with volume for Pickett as I am utilizing more aggressive intermediate and MOF throws on early downs. Get him attempting (and hopefully making) those anticipatory 13 yard outs/corners and seams/crosser. Run-Run-Pass has to end.

But you do need to run the ball to set up play action and open up the D down the field.

NFL teams ran 57-69 plays per game last year for instance.

 

[Peat]

I think you can both take diapers off Kenny and maintain balance in rushing/passing. Not as concerned with volume for Pickett as I am utilizing more aggressive intermediate and MOF throws on early downs. Get him attempting (and hopefully making) those anticipatory 13 yard outs/corners and seams/crosser. Run-Run-Pass has to end.

But you do need to run the ball to set up play action and open up the D down the field.

NFL teams ran 57-69 plays per game last year for instance.

Right - but how many attempts we looking to give the pair a season? 400? 450? More? Are we trying to be one of the league's top 10 in rushing attempts again?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The Steelers were the 7th worst in the NFL in rush yards on first and ten:

STATS Hosted Solution | Team Leaders - Rushing Yards 1st & 10 - NFL - Football

hosted.stats.com

Eliminate that 60 yard plus run last game and the Steelers averaged something like 1.5 yards a carry.

The Steelers had the eighth worse rushing yards per carry in the NFL last year and the fifth worst yards per carry in the NFL in 2021.

NFL Football Stats - NFL Team Yards per Rush Attempt | TeamRankings.com

NFL Football yards per rush attempt, by team.

www.teamrankings.com

The Offensive Line improvement should lead to better results. Should. But with Canada running things I highly doubt that it will improve.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Right - but how many attempts we looking to give the pair a season? 400? 450? More? Are we trying to be one of the league's top 10 in rushing attempts again?

I think it comes down to game flow really.

NFL Football Stats - NFL Team Rushing Attempts per Game | TeamRankings.com

NFL Football rushing attempts per game, by team.

www.teamrankings.com

NFL Football Stats - NFL Team Passing Play Percentage | TeamRankings.com

NFL Football passing play percentage, by team.

www.teamrankings.com

NFL Football Stats - NFL Team Pass Attempts per Game | TeamRankings.com

NFL Football pass attempts per game, by team.

www.teamrankings.com

You could very reasonably get 35 pass attempts and 25 rushing attempts (425 over a season) if you wanted, but like I said I think it’s going to be situational.

Hard thing to commit to season long numbers, I think it’s a week by week, play by play thing.

Overall, I want to cut KP loose more than anyone but part of him throwing the ball down the field consistently is forcing the defense to respect your run game.

It’s said above, but I do not trust Canada to find the right mix or call good plays so who cares really lol.

 

[Peat]

I get what you mean, but you get what I mean too right? There's often and often.

There's a version of use both guys often that makes us a very run-heavy team. It's what the team have talked about wanting. That's why I'm asking about what exactly is meant by often.

Where I'm coming from is that for most of the summer, I brought into the idea of the balanced offence. Good way to take the pressure off of the shoulders of a young guy. But now... at the risk of overreacting to 3 series, Pickett's looking less like a guy who needs sheltering and more like one of the org's stronger assets. The receiving weapons room looks stronger than the running weapons room too.

So I'm wondering just how balanced we want them to be. I know that's going to depend on situations, and in an ideal world there's plenty of games where Pickett throws them to victory and Harris and Warren mop things up... but at the same time, we know what's mean in terms of bias on 2 and 6 in a close game.

And yeah, I know what your answer is because you've said it. But I want to make the why of the question clearer.