OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Whats a Running Back? Does it make the Steel Steeler?

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Buddy Bizarre

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Jul 9, 2021
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From ESPN

Record in 2022: 9-8
Point differential in 2022: minus-38
2022 record in games decided by seven points or fewer: 6-5
Projected strength of schedule, via ESPN's FPI: 11th easiest

I'll admit it: I thought last year's column had the Steelers dead to rights. Unimpressed by their 9-7-1 record while being outscored by 55 points in 2021, I suggested that 2022 would be a transitional season with rookie Kenny Pickett taking over as quarterback. I was concerned the Steelers couldn't get any more out of their big three on defense, and when T.J. Watt went down in the opener with a torn pectoral muscle, those concerns felt justified. At their bye, they were 2-6. It felt like a lost season.

Then the universe remembered who stands on the sideline for the Steelers. Mike Tomlin hadn't posted a losing record in 15 seasons as a head coach, and he wasn't about to start now. They split their first two games after the bye and then got white-hot afterward, winning six of their final seven games. They still came up a half-win short of their total from 2021, but they came as close as possible to defying the numbers.

How did Pittsburgh turn things around? It got Watt back, which helped immensely. Its schedule got easier, as six of its seven wins during the second half came against teams with losing records. The only exception was a Week 17 victory over the rival Ravens, who were starting Tyler Huntley at quarterback for the injured Lamar Jackson.

play
0:50
Will Kenny Pickett improve in 2nd season with Steelers?Dan Orlovsky and Jeff Darlington weigh in on Kenny Pickett's potential going into his second season as the Steelers' starting quarterback.
The biggest factor, though, was something that holds concern for the Steelers and another team that isn't on this list. Before the bye, they turned the ball over 14 times in eight games. After the bye? Pickett & Co. yielded five giveaways in nine games, three of which came in a Week 14 loss to the Ravens. They turned the ball over twice across their other eight games in the second half, and unsurprisingly, they won seven of those eight.

It's impossible to count on any team to turn the ball over as infrequently as the Steelers did during that stretch over a full season, but there's something to break down here. I wanted to test this improvement with teams from the past to see if those that improved their giveaway rate so dramatically from one half to the next kept their turnover rate relatively low the following season. There aren't many comps, however.

The few teams that posted similarly drastic improvements in giveaways from one half to the next either were posting astronomical totals in the first half before regressing to league-average in the second half, changed quarterbacks after the season or had veteran quarterbacks such as Tom Brady, Matthew Stafford or Ben Roethlisberger. Pickett is a rookie who held the ball before his pass attempts longer than all but three other quarterbacks and posted a below-average sack rate. He had a 4.8% interception rate over his first five starts and an 0.4% rate afterward. Morphing from PJ Walker into peak Aaron Rodgers is a nifty improvement, but I don't see how we can't expect Pittsburgh to turn the ball over more often this season.

What makes this so interesting is the Steelers aren't the only team that rode the turnover roller coaster in the second half to a turnaround. The Lions started 1-6 and turned the ball over 11 times across their first seven games. Then, suddenly, they morphed into something different. Jared Goff & Co. turned the ball over just four times in the ensuing 10 games, winning eight of those 10. Like the Steelers, they committed two of those turnovers in a single loss, to the Bills on Thanksgiving. The Lions just decided overnight to stop turning over the football, which immediately spurred a winning streak.

To be fair, the offense improved aside from strictly protecting the ball. If we eliminate the drives that ended in turnovers altogether, the Steelers jumped from 31st in points per possession before the bye to 11th afterward. Najee Harris hasn't been an efficient back, but Jaylen Warren showed it was possible to look impressive behind a middling offensive line. That line should be better in 2023, with Isaac Seumalo joining from the Eagles and rookie first-rounder Broderick Jones likely to take over at left tackle, although he has looked uneven during the preseason.

I'm more concerned about the defense on paper, which is strange for a Steelers team under Tomlin. Cornerback is suddenly a problem, as Cameron Sutton and Arthur Maulet left in free agency and were replaced by the ex-Vikings duo of Patrick Peterson and Chandon Sullivan. I'm not sure about their fit in a scheme that played man at the sixth-highest rate last season, and it's a lot to ask of rookie second-rounder Joey Porter Jr. to be ready for a big role in Week 1. The last time the Steelers had a rookie cornerback start at least 12 games in a season was 1987. Even given the presence of Minkah Fitzpatrick, they probably won't lead the league in interception rate again.
 

Buddy Bizarre

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Jul 9, 2021
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Interesting snippet from a fantasy football article on The Athletic:

"It’s possible that the Steelers are going to slightly reduce the number of scrimmage plays they give Najee Harris, as Jaylen Warren outpaced Harris in GBYPA (8.0 versus 7.4) and yards per reception (7.6 versus 5.6). Even if this happens, Harris may net out ahead of his 2022 pace due to a potential GBR improvement, as he was tied for 40th in GBR received at 34.9 percent, while Pittsburgh placed 12th in team GBR at 42.4 percent."

That's Good Blocking Rate, and Good Blocking Yards Per Attempt (i.e. if the block is good, how many yards are they picking up).

Not surprised to learn that Harris got significantly worse blocking. Bad blocking no less. 34.9 would be 30th if it was a team here. It's what my eye test was telling me. It's a shame the article didn't give us how much of it Warren got, and how both did on plays where they got not-good blocking.

And it's a shame they don't dig deeper into what's happening on the plays they both get good blocking or a reception, because since digging into the stats reveals different situations, you've got to wonder just how different?


Incidentally, that could be part of why Harris is salty. About the only thing Warren had to do was swerve his guy a little and sprint. The team laid out a red carpet for Warren to make his yards, blocking wise. Harris is receiving a bunch of criticism because in no small part, the team hasn't done that for him. That's got to sting.

edit: Also even with zero salt, it's maybe not surprising that a RB isn't giving a ton of praise for a run that was 90% blocking. It'd be like giving praise for someone going to the store and not forgetting what's on the list.

Sometimes I wonder if fans (and coaches) aren't biased bc of "pedigree"

If you took their nameplates off the jerseys, would anyone honestly say Harris is a better RB than Warren?

I mean if you like a Bettis Jr and "smashmouth" football, you'd probably prefer Harris. But if you like RB's to get yards vs breaking tackles, then Warren is your guy
 
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UnrealMachine

Registered User
Jul 9, 2012
4,641
2,152
Pittsburgh, USA
From ESPN
Record in 2022: 9-8
Point differential in 2022: minus-38
2022 record in games decided by seven points or fewer: 6-5
Projected strength of schedule, via ESPN's FPI: 11th easiest

I'll admit it: I thought last year's column had the Steelers dead to rights. Unimpressed by their 9-7-1 record while being outscored by 55 points in 2021, I suggested that 2022 would be a transitional season with rookie Kenny Pickett taking over as quarterback. I was concerned the Steelers couldn't get any more out of their big three on defense, and when T.J. Watt went down in the opener with a torn pectoral muscle, those concerns felt justified. At their bye, they were 2-6. It felt like a lost season.

Then the universe remembered who stands on the sideline for the Steelers. Mike Tomlin hadn't posted a losing record in 15 seasons as a head coach, and he wasn't about to start now. They split their first two games after the bye and then got white-hot afterward, winning six of their final seven games. They still came up a half-win short of their total from 2021, but they came as close as possible to defying the numbers.

How did Pittsburgh turn things around? It got Watt back, which helped immensely. Its schedule got easier, as six of its seven wins during the second half came against teams with losing records. The only exception was a Week 17 victory over the rival Ravens, who were starting Tyler Huntley at quarterback for the injured Lamar Jackson.

play
0:50
Will Kenny Pickett improve in 2nd season with Steelers?Dan Orlovsky and Jeff Darlington weigh in on Kenny Pickett's potential going into his second season as the Steelers' starting quarterback.
The biggest factor, though, was something that holds concern for the Steelers and another team that isn't on this list. Before the bye, they turned the ball over 14 times in eight games. After the bye? Pickett & Co. yielded five giveaways in nine games, three of which came in a Week 14 loss to the Ravens. They turned the ball over twice across their other eight games in the second half, and unsurprisingly, they won seven of those eight.

It's impossible to count on any team to turn the ball over as infrequently as the Steelers did during that stretch over a full season, but there's something to break down here. I wanted to test this improvement with teams from the past to see if those that improved their giveaway rate so dramatically from one half to the next kept their turnover rate relatively low the following season. There aren't many comps, however.

The few teams that posted similarly drastic improvements in giveaways from one half to the next either were posting astronomical totals in the first half before regressing to league-average in the second half, changed quarterbacks after the season or had veteran quarterbacks such as Tom Brady, Matthew Stafford or Ben Roethlisberger. Pickett is a rookie who held the ball before his pass attempts longer than all but three other quarterbacks and posted a below-average sack rate. He had a 4.8% interception rate over his first five starts and an 0.4% rate afterward. Morphing from PJ Walker into peak Aaron Rodgers is a nifty improvement, but I don't see how we can't expect Pittsburgh to turn the ball over more often this season.

What makes this so interesting is the Steelers aren't the only team that rode the turnover roller coaster in the second half to a turnaround. The Lions started 1-6 and turned the ball over 11 times across their first seven games. Then, suddenly, they morphed into something different. Jared Goff & Co. turned the ball over just four times in the ensuing 10 games, winning eight of those 10. Like the Steelers, they committed two of those turnovers in a single loss, to the Bills on Thanksgiving. The Lions just decided overnight to stop turning over the football, which immediately spurred a winning streak.

To be fair, the offense improved aside from strictly protecting the ball. If we eliminate the drives that ended in turnovers altogether, the Steelers jumped from 31st in points per possession before the bye to 11th afterward. Najee Harris hasn't been an efficient back, but Jaylen Warren showed it was possible to look impressive behind a middling offensive line. That line should be better in 2023, with Isaac Seumalo joining from the Eagles and rookie first-rounder Broderick Jones likely to take over at left tackle, although he has looked uneven during the preseason.

I'm more concerned about the defense on paper, which is strange for a Steelers team under Tomlin. Cornerback is suddenly a problem, as Cameron Sutton and Arthur Maulet left in free agency and were replaced by the ex-Vikings duo of Patrick Peterson and Chandon Sullivan. I'm not sure about their fit in a scheme that played man at the sixth-highest rate last season, and it's a lot to ask of rookie second-rounder Joey Porter Jr. to be ready for a big role in Week 1. The last time the Steelers had a rookie cornerback start at least 12 games in a season was 1987. Even given the presence of Minkah Fitzpatrick, they probably won't lead the league in interception rate again.
It took me until the 3rd paragraph to realize you had copied/pasted the whole story and not just the projected records. {derp}
 

JTG

Registered User
Sep 30, 2007
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Sometimes I wonder if fans (and coaches) aren't biased bc of "pedigree"

If you took their nameplates off the jerseys, would anyone honestly say Harris is a better RB than Warren?

I mean if you like a Bettis Jr and "smashmouth" football, you'd probably prefer Harris. But if you like RB's to get yards vs breaking tackles, then Warren is your guy

Warren plays a smash mouth style too. People think Warren is small because he's short. He's 210 pounds at 5'8. He's a legit bowling ball like Jones-Drew was.
 
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Buddy Bizarre

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Jul 9, 2021
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Warren plays a smash mouth style too. People think Warren is small because he's short. He's 210 pounds at 5'8. He's a legit bowling ball like Jones-Drew was.

You used the perfect term= bowling ball. Warren bounces off guys vs runs them over like Harris. I also think that style of running is easier to keep your balance instead of stepping on/over a defender, which limits Harris being able to go the distance.

So while most people see both backs not shying away from contact, the running styles are quite different. I also think Harris runs a bit too upright when he receives the ball and that limits his vision a bit
 
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Monkey D Luffy

Go Bombers!
Nov 20, 2017
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What does Najee do better than Warren? I would give him the nod as a receiver and that is it. Now, he has proven he can carry the main load and Warren has not. However, I am not comfortable saying Warren can't do it because he never got the chance. Otherwise I am not sure what Najee does better.
Why can't the Steelers can't have two good backs? Najee is an all-around back who's proven he can play 3 downs. Warren comes in as a change of pace.

Making a mountain out of a mole hill.
 
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Mr Jiggyfly

Registered User
Jan 29, 2004
34,436
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From ESPN

Record in 2022: 9-8
Point differential in 2022: minus-38
2022 record in games decided by seven points or fewer: 6-5
Projected strength of schedule, via ESPN's FPI: 11th easiest

I'll admit it: I thought last year's column had the Steelers dead to rights. Unimpressed by their 9-7-1 record while being outscored by 55 points in 2021, I suggested that 2022 would be a transitional season with rookie Kenny Pickett taking over as quarterback. I was concerned the Steelers couldn't get any more out of their big three on defense, and when T.J. Watt went down in the opener with a torn pectoral muscle, those concerns felt justified. At their bye, they were 2-6. It felt like a lost season.

Then the universe remembered who stands on the sideline for the Steelers. Mike Tomlin hadn't posted a losing record in 15 seasons as a head coach, and he wasn't about to start now. They split their first two games after the bye and then got white-hot afterward, winning six of their final seven games. They still came up a half-win short of their total from 2021, but they came as close as possible to defying the numbers.

How did Pittsburgh turn things around? It got Watt back, which helped immensely. Its schedule got easier, as six of its seven wins during the second half came against teams with losing records. The only exception was a Week 17 victory over the rival Ravens, who were starting Tyler Huntley at quarterback for the injured Lamar Jackson.

play
0:50
Will Kenny Pickett improve in 2nd season with Steelers?Dan Orlovsky and Jeff Darlington weigh in on Kenny Pickett's potential going into his second season as the Steelers' starting quarterback.
The biggest factor, though, was something that holds concern for the Steelers and another team that isn't on this list. Before the bye, they turned the ball over 14 times in eight games. After the bye? Pickett & Co. yielded five giveaways in nine games, three of which came in a Week 14 loss to the Ravens. They turned the ball over twice across their other eight games in the second half, and unsurprisingly, they won seven of those eight.

It's impossible to count on any team to turn the ball over as infrequently as the Steelers did during that stretch over a full season, but there's something to break down here. I wanted to test this improvement with teams from the past to see if those that improved their giveaway rate so dramatically from one half to the next kept their turnover rate relatively low the following season. There aren't many comps, however.

The few teams that posted similarly drastic improvements in giveaways from one half to the next either were posting astronomical totals in the first half before regressing to league-average in the second half, changed quarterbacks after the season or had veteran quarterbacks such as Tom Brady, Matthew Stafford or Ben Roethlisberger. Pickett is a rookie who held the ball before his pass attempts longer than all but three other quarterbacks and posted a below-average sack rate. He had a 4.8% interception rate over his first five starts and an 0.4% rate afterward. Morphing from PJ Walker into peak Aaron Rodgers is a nifty improvement, but I don't see how we can't expect Pittsburgh to turn the ball over more often this season.

What makes this so interesting is the Steelers aren't the only team that rode the turnover roller coaster in the second half to a turnaround. The Lions started 1-6 and turned the ball over 11 times across their first seven games. Then, suddenly, they morphed into something different. Jared Goff & Co. turned the ball over just four times in the ensuing 10 games, winning eight of those 10. Like the Steelers, they committed two of those turnovers in a single loss, to the Bills on Thanksgiving. The Lions just decided overnight to stop turning over the football, which immediately spurred a winning streak.

To be fair, the offense improved aside from strictly protecting the ball. If we eliminate the drives that ended in turnovers altogether, the Steelers jumped from 31st in points per possession before the bye to 11th afterward. Najee Harris hasn't been an efficient back, but Jaylen Warren showed it was possible to look impressive behind a middling offensive line. That line should be better in 2023, with Isaac Seumalo joining from the Eagles and rookie first-rounder Broderick Jones likely to take over at left tackle, although he has looked uneven during the preseason.

I'm more concerned about the defense on paper, which is strange for a Steelers team under Tomlin. Cornerback is suddenly a problem, as Cameron Sutton and Arthur Maulet left in free agency and were replaced by the ex-Vikings duo of Patrick Peterson and Chandon Sullivan. I'm not sure about their fit in a scheme that played man at the sixth-highest rate last season, and it's a lot to ask of rookie second-rounder Joey Porter Jr. to be ready for a big role in Week 1. The last time the Steelers had a rookie cornerback start at least 12 games in a season was 1987. Even given the presence of Minkah Fitzpatrick, they probably won't lead the league in interception rate again.

I’m not going to cheat and look, but “the last rookie CB to start 12 games in a row” for the Steelers was 1987… Woodson? He held out though… forget how long… Delton Hall?

Was that Hall’s rookie year? I was a kid then so my memory may be way off.

I swear the opening game they destroyed the 9ers and Hall had a pick and my little ass self was fist pumping.
 

Double-Shift Lasse

Just post better
Dec 22, 2004
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I’m not going to cheat and look, but “the last rookie CB to start 12 games in a row” for the Steelers was 1987… Woodson? He held out though… forget how long… Delton Hall?

Was that Hall’s rookie year? I was a kid then so my memory may be way off.

I swear the opening game they destroyed the 9ers and Hall had a pick and my little ass self was fist pumping.
Had to have been Hall because I'm pretty sure Woodson missed like half the season.
 

Al Smith

Registered User
Apr 28, 2012
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LOL. Well that sack wasn't fair. Haven't seen the team this preseason. Two great throws by Pickett on the first drive.
 
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Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
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I still think Pickett's upside is a Kirk Cousins caliber of guy, but the more I watch from him, the more I know he's the guy for the Steelers going forward. Hell, he might be that Kirk Cousins caliber of guy this year.

Give him weapons on offense and a good defense and this team can absolutely win a SB with him.
 
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