GDT: The Pittsburgher Thread - Training Camp is Upon Us

[tread102]

He was a little before my time, but I watched a lot of old films and he looked pretty bad.

Lots of old school Yinzers have told me he was the worst starting QB they ever saw for the Steelers… which I can’t imagine being true having witnessed the nightmare fuel of Kent Graham.

I remember Malone slightly, he was pretty bad but graham definitely takes the cake. Good god was he awful

 

[turd]

I think one of, if not the biggest issues, that Ben and the Steelers have had to endure over his tenure is not that Tomlin has been his coach, but that Belichick and Brady existed at the same time. Or at least existed within the AFC.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

The only person who held back Ben was Ben.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

You prove my point that fans of this team expect the coordinators to do the HC's job. Clown knows this and reaps the rewards.

Yeah that’s why the have position coaches. The head coach coach is the ceo they don’t have time to babysit grown men. Ben is on record saying he likes Dobbs because he helps him break down film. Have some pride in yourself and watch film

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Jared Goff is a completely overhyped QB. He is in no way as good as a lot of national people think he is and he gets a ton of rope because he was a number 1 pick who made it to the Super Bowl...he is still 1,000% better then Mason Rudolph will ever be. Mason Rudolph wouldn't be on another roster right now if it wasn't for this management team liking him and having a first round grade on him. If Rudolph wasn't a Steeler he wouldn't be on a team currently. Goff would be a starter...even if Goff wasn't making shit loads of money

Not true at all to say Mason wouldn’t be on another roster. He is better than a ton of back up QBs in this league. I know people can’t get over 2019 but forget he had no QB coach until Canada was hired and was not running an offense built for his strengths. Goff is about be exposed in Detroit

 

[tread102]

Not true at all to say Mason wouldn’t be on another roster. He is better than a ton of back up QBs in this league. I know people can’t get over 2019 but forget he had no QB coach until Canada was hired and was not running an offense built for his strengths. Goff is about be exposed in Detroit

MR has no strengths that’s why he is barely a backup in this league and fighting for his job this camp with a dumpster fire named haskins

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I remember Malone slightly, he was pretty bad but graham definitely takes the cake. Good god was he awful

I never felt more depressed or hopeless than I did during the Graham days.

Not only was he the worst thrower I ever saw, he made an old Joe Namath look nimble.

The only person who held back Ben was Ben.

Why bother having coaches then?

Not every player is a forever jaded sixth round pick that was hyper motivated to relentlessly prove the world wrong for 20 years or one that had a former all pro QB father grooming him to be in the NFL since he was 8 years old.

Yeah that’s why the have position coaches. The head coach coach is the ceo they don’t have time to babysit grown men. Ben is on record saying he likes Dobbs because he helps him break down film. Have some pride in yourself and watch film

Funny how Noll, Walsh and Hoodie found time to teach their franchise guys.

Difference is they knew how to do it, Tomlin is clueless.

Which has been my entire point all along.

 

[ChaosAgent]

You keep using hyperbole to try and ignore the obvious.

Three playoff wins in ten years is a massive under achievement by both Tomlin and BR. So only someone deeply delusional could say Tomlin got the best out of BR.

Noll and Walsh had a philosophy that you aren’t buddies with your players… that you never let your starting QB get too comfortable.

Walsh benched Montana, he used Young as an instrument of fear to drive him. He even considered trading Montana for Elway in ‘83.

Noll did the same to Bradshaw and knew how to push all of his buttons and get the best from him.

It also helped that both were master game planners that also taught their QBs how to play the position well, while Tomlin has been quite poor at both aspects.

I could only imagine Tomlin coaching the hard headed, ultra mistake prone Bradshaw who said about himself coming out of school:



There is zero doubt in my mind that Tomlin would have made a mess of Bradshaw.

I said Tomlin didn't get the best out of BR like 4 times already.

I also said that having a manager who "gets the best out of you" (BTW, you make 4-5x as much as this manager) is a rarity and not something that every football player is entitled to. Nor every person. Despite what some Linkedin "farming for likes" article will say, that isn't how things work.

Again, before we hand Ben SB trophies he didn't win let's hand Brees and Rodgers - better QBs who work harder, are smarter, and aren't fat as f*** - some trophies first.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

MR has no strengths that’s why he is barely a backup in this league and fighting for his job this camp with a dumpster fire named haskins

He throws an excellent deep ball. He isn’t fighting for his job. He is the number 2 solidly and the only guy currently on the books for 2022.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

I never felt more depressed or hopeless than I did during the Graham days.

Not only was he the worst thrower I ever saw, he made an old Joe Namath look nimble.

You have to want to be taught.

Why bother having coaches then?

Not every player is a forever jaded sixth round pick that was hyper motivated to relentlessly prove the world wrong for 20 years or one that had a former all pro QB father grooming him to be in the NFL since he was 8 years old.



Funny how Noll, Walsh and Hoodie found time to teach their franchise guys.

Difference is they knew how to do it, Tomlin is clueless.

Which has been my entire point all along.

You have to want to be coached Ben doesn’t. You have to invest time and energy when no one is around to get better that is not something Ben wants to do. Ben has multiple coaches show him how to break down tape he has had multiple coaches try to talk him into getting under center using play action. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I said Tomlin didn't get the best out of BR like 4 times already.

I also said that having a manager who "gets the best out of you" (BTW, you make 4-5x as much as this manager) is a rarity and not something that every football player is entitled to. Nor every person. Despite what some Linkedin "farming for likes" article will say, that isn't how things work.

Again, before we hand Ben SB trophies he didn't win let's hand Brees and Rodgers - better QBs who work harder, are smarter, and aren't fat as f*** - some trophies first.

You keep going back to fictitious SB trophies as an excuse to pretend Tomlin didn’t have a negative effect on BR career.

He did.

And when was it ever said that a QB having a great coach wasn’t rare?

Guys like Brady, Bradshaw and Montana won the coach lottery and benefitted greatly from it.

They had great coaches that taught them the game, pushed all the right buttons and were master game planners.

BR ended up with a fraud.

That’s just the luck of the draw.

You have to want to be coached Ben doesn’t. You have to invest time and energy when no one is around to get better that is not something Ben wants to do. Ben has multiple coaches show him how to break down tape he has had multiple coaches try to talk him into getting under center using play action. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink

The teacher has to actually know what they are doing for the student to learn.

That includes putting the student out of his comfort zone and instilling discipline like Cowher and Whis had done early in BR career.

Tomlin was a fraud that didn’t know what he was doing and allowed the inmates to run the prison.

Considering how Bradshaw was even more raw than Roth coming out of college, I have zero doubts Tomlin would have f***ed up his career.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

You keep going back to fictitious SB trophies as an excuse to pretend Tomlin didn’t have a negative effect on BR career.

He did.

And when was it ever said that a QB having a great coach wasn’t rare?

Guys like Brady, Bradshaw and Montana won the coach lottery and benefitted greatly from it.

They had great coaches that taught them the game, pushed all the right buttons and were master game planners.

BR ended up with a fraud.

That’s just the luck of the draw.



The teacher has to actually know what they are doing for the student to learn.

That includes putting the student out of his comfort zone and instilling discipline like Cowher and Whis had done early in BR career.

Tomlin was a fraud that didn’t know what he was doing and allowed the inmates to run the prison.

Considering how Bradshaw was even more raw than Roth coming out of college, I have zero doubts Tomlin would have f***ed up his career.

Every oc Ben has had since he got here has kept the same verbiage to keep him comfortable. Everyone has said we have to call more play action even if he gets uncomfortable but Ben decides against it. Most franchise QB get say in the offense. Canada is changing the verbiage so Ben had is daughter do flash cards that is the first time he actually did what most QBs do. He is 39 he shouldn’t n need his coach to hold his hand.

 

[ChaosAgent]

You keep going back to fictitious SB trophies as an excuse to pretend Tomlin didn’t have a negative effect on BR career.

He did.

And when was it ever said that a QB having a great coach wasn’t rare?

Guys like Brady, Bradshaw and Montana won the coach lottery and benefitted greatly from it.

They had great coaches that taught them the game, pushed all the right buttons and were master game planners.

BR ended up with a fraud.

That’s just the luck of the draw.



The teacher has to actually know what they are doing for the student to learn.

That includes putting the student out of his comfort zone and instilling discipline like Cowher and Whis had done early in BR career.

Tomlin was a fraud that didn’t know what he was doing and allowed the inmates to run the prison.

Considering how Bradshaw was even more raw than Roth coming out of college, I have zero doubts Tomlin would have f***ed up his career.

Tomlin was a defense guy and outsourced offensive management to the OC. Which most coaches do; pick your side and then let the other side be carved out by someone else.

I wish we'd have fired Tomlin. But if the standard is Belichick/Walsh/Noll to be "non fraudulent" then like every coach is fraudulent.

You've really constructed the narrative in your head where Ben's on Brady's tier as a quarterback, leader and person but Tomlin stood in his way. I have similar counterfactual scenarios that I debate with people and I can see it is exhausting for them to debate things like that when I'm in the headspace of a parallel universe. As such I'll let you get back to it.

Edit: this is like my Jared Goff is a backup takes. I'm sorry for making y'all debate me on this.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Tomlin was a defense guy and outsourced offensive management to the OC. Which most coaches do; pick your side and then let the other side be carved out by someone else.

I wish we'd have fired Tomlin. But if the standard is Belichick/Walsh/Noll to be "non fraudulent" then like every coach is fraudulent.

You've really constructed the narrative in your head where Ben's on Brady's tier as a quarterback, leader and person but Tomlin stood in his way. I have similar counterfactual scenarios that I debate with people and I can see it is exhausting for them to debate things like that when I'm in the headspace of a parallel universe. As such I'll let you get back to it.

No, you constructed the narrative that I think BR is on Brady’s tier. It’s what you do - create strawmans to make your argument sound intelligent.

How about you find one post where I even hinted at that? If not I bet you won’t man up and admit you are wrong (like usual).

I have pointed out that Tomlin was a fraud and we should have expected more than three playoff wins in a decade from a coach with a HOF QB.

But trying to explain this to someone who believes they have empirical evidence BR is a rapist all these years is basically the same as pissing in the wind.

Every oc Ben has had since he got here has kept the same verbiage to keep him comfortable. Everyone has said we have to call more play action even if he gets uncomfortable but Ben decides against it. Most franchise QB get say in the offense. Canada is changing the verbiage so Ben had is daughter do flash cards that is the first time he actually did what most QBs do. He is 39 he shouldn’t n need his coach to hold his hand.

How did it get to this point of being coddled that he didn’t want to go under center?

Was that an issue under Cowher and Whis?

No you say… why not?

It’s a great great mystery.

 

[ChaosAgent]

No, you constructed the narrative that I think BR is on Brady’s tier. It’s what you do - create strawmans to make your argument sound intelligent.

How about you find one post where I even hinted at that? If not I bet you won’t man up and admit you are wrong (like usual).

I have pointed out that Tomlin was a fraud and we should have expected more than three playoff wins in a decade from a coach with a HOF QB.

But trying to explain this to someone who believes they have empirical evidence BR is a rapist all these years is basically the same as pissing in the wind.

I don't doubt Tomlin underachieved. I think he did. Your argument that we'll never do anything as long as Tomlin is coach is old & tired. Is he great? No. Are we still capable of doing things as a franchise even with him? Absolutely.

You also are way understating how poor Ben has, himself, been in the playoffs outside of the 2 SB runs (and Ben was terrible in the SB40 itself though he was excellent against Indy & Denver leading in so all told, very high grade there). It was never Tomlin's offense. It was Ben & his OC's offense. The only year where the offense did their job but the defense single-handedly destroyed them was the Bortles game in 2018. The other playoff wins included a lot of Field-Goal mancing against the Bengals - with a healthy dose of Vontaze Burfict and Pac Man winning us the game - and against the Dolphins.

Since 2010, your HOF quarterback has thrown 19 TDs and 16 INTs in the playoffs. That isn't Hall of Fame worthy at all. That's terrible. Ben is a HOFer on the basis of his regular seasons and his great early career success. He certainly hasn't helped Tomlin much in the playoffs recently.

 

[tread102]

No, you constructed the narrative that I think BR is on Brady’s tier. It’s what you do - create strawmans to make your argument sound intelligent.

How about you find one post where I even hinted at that? If not I bet you won’t man up and admit you are wrong (like usual).

I have pointed out that Tomlin was a fraud and we should have expected more than three playoff wins in a decade from a coach with a HOF QB.

But trying to explain this to someone who believes they have empirical evidence BR is a rapist all these years is basically the same as pissing in the wind.



How did it get to this point of being coddled that he didn’t want to go under center?

Was that an issue under Cowher and Whis?

No you say… why not?

It’s a great great mystery.

you know the problem is people don’t like Ben the person. Honestly he seems like a big douche. I don’t let that affect my opinion of him as a football player.

if these average Joe’s met most of these pro football players they realize most are entitled jerks.

judge a guy on his accomplishments. BR is a first ballot HOF QB. Yes he’s a shell of himself. He is still the best option however.

it is absolutely possible that BR is an extremely flawed but talented player that is hard to coach. It’s also possible that tomlin isn’t a very good coach to handle a person like BR. Honestly they are probably a very bad fit for each other. The three wins in ten years can’t be all BR’s fault. It can’t be all tomlin’s fault.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Ben isn't a great reader of defenses. He has also grown increasingly immobile; the "extending plays" thing has gone by the wayside.

He also frequently starts very cold, especially in the playoffs. The fact he can't be bothered to practice may play a role. For an offense led by a "HOF QB"er, it sure did have the propensity for incomplete passes and 3-and-outs over the 2010s.

I went through the phase where I was all "why don't the National guys have Ben in the same tier as Brady, Manning, Rodgers and Brees! The sheer disrespect! They hate the Steelers!" But then you watch him time after time in the playoffs and it's plain to see why he's a tier below.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I don't doubt Tomlin underachieved. I think he did. Your argument that we'll never do anything as long as Tomlin is coach is old & tired. Is he great? No. Are we still capable of doing things as a franchise even with him? Absolutely.

You also are way understating how poor Ben has, himself, been in the playoffs outside of the 2 SB runs (and Ben was terrible in the SB40 itself though he was excellent against Indy & Denver leading in so all told, very high grade there). It was never Tomlin's offense. It was Ben & his OC's offense. The only year where the offense did their job but the defense single-handedly destroyed them was the Bortles game in 2018. The other playoff wins included a lot of Field-Goal mancing against the Bengals - with a healthy dose of Vontaze Burfict and Pac Man winning us the game - and against the Dolphins.

Since 2010, your HOF quarterback has thrown 19 TDs and 16 INTs in the playoffs. That isn't Hall of Fame worthy at all. That's terrible. Ben is a HOFer on the basis of his regular seasons and his great early career success. He certainly hasn't helped Tomlin much in the playoffs recently.

No, my argument of them never doing anything under Tomlin in the playoffs has been spot on and accurate for the last five years.

That’s not really my problem if you don’t like reading the truth.

I have already said both BR and Tomlin are to blame, but one guy is a proven two time SB winner and the other is a fraud that won his only SB with his predecessors team and a HOF D coordinator.

So I’m 99% sure who the real issue has been the last decade.

you know the problem is people don’t like Ben the person. Honestly he seems like a big douche. I don’t let that affect my opinion of him as a football player.

if these average Joe’s met most of these pro football players they realize most are entitled jerks.

judge a guy on his accomplishments. BR is a first ballot HOF QB. Yes he’s a shell of himself. He is still the best option however.

it is absolutely possible that BR is an extremely flawed but talented player that is hard to coach. It’s also possible that tomlin isn’t a very good coach to handle a person like BR. Honestly they are probably a very bad fit for each other. The three wins in ten years can’t be all BR’s fault. It can’t be all tomlin’s fault.

I have maintained for years he seems like a big douche and I’ve heard from people when he was younger that he most definitely was.

I don’t really care about what type of person he is… if I cared about ppl who entertain me being nice morally upstanding citizens, I wouldn’t watch many sports or movies and my music catalog would be quite lean as well.

As I’ve wrote before, Noll had it much worse with Bradshaw - dude couldn’t read a D, didn’t watch film, was cocky and so brash he would openly defy Noll and call his own plays.

He was also a major turnover machine that believed way too much in his own arm.

But somehow Tomlin had it worse with BR… ya.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Ben has always been a game manager he isn’t ever going to be the guy who carries a team to a championship sure he got hot in 2005 and played great in the Arizona super bowl. The defense was good enough to over come his turn overs in the playoffs early cause they weren’t leading to points directly.
in Jacksonville he spotted them 10 points minimum because of turn overs and 14 against Cleveland. It’s interesting that in the 3 wins since 2010 he has a combined 3 tds

 

[ChaosAgent]

No, my argument of them never doing anything under Tomlin in the playoffs has been spot on and accurate for the last five years.

That’s not really my problem if you don’t like reading the truth.

I have already said both BR and Tomlin are to blame, but one guy is a proven two time SB winner and the other is a fraud that won his only SB with his predecessors team and a HOF D coordinator.

So I’m 99% sure who the real issue has been the last decade.

That's fine and all. As I said, Ben was a better QB than Tomlin was a coach.

Your shtick throughout the rest of this thread is just going to be "Tomlin's a fraud" and then you work backwards from there to every other conclusion? Hat tip to you, sire. Seems exhausting but at least it's predictable.

I'd be quite happy if we fired Tomlin. But I don't expect the next hire to be a Home Run hire, because most hires aren't.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I'd be quite happy if we fired Tomlin. But I don't expect the next hire to be a Home Run hire, because most hires aren't.

I'll take issue with that. Tomlin was a home run and the right coach at the right time. This organization sure as hell knows how to hire HC's. They just don't know how to fire them.

Although the 3 coaches that were hired were under the watchful eye of the Rooneys with half a brain.
I can't say the same for current Eddie Munster Rooney who might hire Tim Tebow just to sell some tickets

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'll take issue with that. Tomlin was a home run and the right coach at the right time. This organization sure as hell knows how to hire HC's. They just don't know how to fire them.

Although the 3 coaches that were hired were under the watchful eye of the Rooneys with half a brain.
I can't say the same for current Eddie Munster Rooney who might hire Tim Tebow just to sell some tickets

So you are saying he wore out his welcome, but he is not a "clown fraud."

That is at least a reasonable middle ground.

 

[xlm34]

I'll take issue with that. Tomlin was a home run and the right coach at the right time. This organization sure as hell knows how to hire HC's. They just don't know how to fire them.

Although the 3 coaches that were hired were under the watchful eye of the Rooneys with half a brain.
I can't say the same for current Eddie Munster Rooney who might hire Tim Tebow just to sell some tickets

I like this take a lot. I think Tomlin has overstayed his welcome but he wasn’t nearly as bad as some say.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

So you are saying he wore out his welcome, but he is not a "clown fraud."

That is at least a reasonable middle ground.

Well I can't say they are mutually exclusive descriptors.

A phony can have success (great success), but they eventually get found out.

Tomlin had a passion for his job when he got it- he was young and hungry. The effort he exuded pushed him to beyond average and his players needed a new fresh voice.

But we've learned over a decade that well, Tomlin doesn't LEARN from his past mistakes from clock mgmt to not running the wheels off to "letting boys be boys" in his lockerroom.
That doesn't make him a fraud. That just makes him arrogant and in turn makes him a very average coach.

The Emporer truly has no clothes and only he and his most ardent defenders will say otherwise.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

That's fine and all. As I said, Ben was a better QB than Tomlin was a coach.

Your shtick throughout the rest of this thread is just going to be "Tomlin's a fraud" and then you work backwards from there to every other conclusion? Hat tip to you, sire. Seems exhausting but at least it's predictable.

I'd be quite happy if we fired Tomlin. But I don't expect the next hire to be a Home Run hire, because most hires aren't.

The guy who invents things people wrote and claims he has evidence BR is a rapist tipping his hat to me means little in my books - but thx (j/k I really I don’t care).

A fraud is a fraud, just like DB was a fraud, but I guess Crosby just didn’t work hard enough or watch enough film or something.

Ben has always been a game manager he isn’t ever going to be the guy who carries a team to a championship sure he got hot in 2005 and played great in the Arizona super bowl. The defense was good enough to over come his turn overs in the playoffs early cause they weren’t leading to points directly.
in Jacksonville he spotted them 10 points minimum because of turn overs and 14 against Cleveland. It’s interesting that in the 3 wins since 2010 he has a combined 3 tds

It’s interesting that a guy who has thrown for the seventh most passing yards all time is a game manager… almost like you are making shit up…

Oh wait you are.

Let’s take away the 24 points Roth gave up and what do ya know.. the fraud calling the D has still let up 66 points in his last two playoff games against legends like Blake Bortles and Mayfield.

You would think 42 points at home would be enough to beat Blake Bortles, but you would be wrong.

It’s almost like Tomlin teams play confused on both sides of the ball in the playoffs… can’t quite put my finger on what would cause that..?

If only BR could have thrown 3 picks like Brady did agt GB in the championship game and had his defense help him out a little.

Tomlin Ds don’t roll like that in the playoffs though.

Bummer.