GDT: The Pittsburgher Thread - Training Camp is Upon Us

[Mr Jiggyfly]

All of that might have been my point too.

Ultimately who knows how long this org will go back to QB hell, but for f***s sake at least make some legit attempts to find a franchise one this time around.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I definitely get the overall point.

I’m just trying to point out the very sound logic that you stand a better chance of finding a franchise guy if you actually prioritize the position.

For 24 years the Steelers treated the QB position like an afterthought and it bit them in the ass hard.

Cowher as we all know by now even wanted to pass on Roth for an OL.

It’s just a very, very bizarre part of their history that boggles my mind. Basically almost two decades and half… it’s almost insane to contemplate… yet they still almost had another Marino moment.

So when we have another poster declaring how they can win championships with avg QBs, it tells me it must be some teenager who:

1. doesn’t have a firm grip on NFL history

2. most importantly, never lived through the 90s and early 2000s that literally saw multiple ‘super Steelers teams’ undone constantly by mediocre QB play.

I don't think we can win a championship with a cruddy QB.

I just don't think we'd be worse than late career fat, paid, chummy gunslinger Ben.

Last I checked, the team has done nothing with Ben for like 6 years. I know, I know, it's all Tomlin =).

 

[ChaosAgent]

PFF Quarterback Rankings: All 32 starters ahead of the 2021 NFL season | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF

I would take every single quarterback on this list and a half dozen other backups off the top of my head (Lance, Tyrod Taylor, Mac Jones, Minshew, Kyle Allen, whoever loses the Winston/Hill contest, BD Nick Foles, Dalton, Wolford, Mariota who I wish we had) over Rudolph. Just not Goff =).

Oh yeah, that Heinicke dude from WFT looked good as well. Throw him on the list.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I don't think we can win a championship with a cruddy QB.

I just don't think we'd be worse than late career fat, paid, chummy gunslinger Ben.

Last I checked, the team has done nothing with Ben for like 6 years. I know, I know, it's all Tomlin =).

I’ll take Roth in a wheelchair over the options they have now.

It’s not all on Tomlin, but a coach who doesn’t create a culture of accountability was never going to bring out the best in a QB like BR.

Legit great coaches like Walsh, Noll, Hoodie, Parcells etc were all about making everyone accountable, including their QBs.

BR having Tomlin as his coach for most of his prime completely derailed his career.

Having Tomlin as his coach was like having that parent that wants to be the cool dad and never holds you accountable, so ultimately the child never truly matures.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I’ll take Roth in a wheelchair over the options they have now.

It’s not all on Tomlin, but a coach who doesn’t create a culture of accountability was never going to bring out the best in a QB like BR.

Legit great coaches like Walsh, Noll, Hoodie, Parcells etc were all about making everyone accountable, including their QBs.

BR having Tomlin as his coach for most of his prime completely derailed his career.

Having Tomlin as his coach was like having that parent that wants to be the cool dad and never holds you accountable, so ultimately the child never truly matures.

I don't like Tomlin and I wish he wasn't the coach.

But Tomlin robbed BR of nothing. BR wasn't held back by Tomlin from becoming Brady. BR was neither a good enough quarterback nor a good enough leader to have definitively won another. I mean Rodgers and Brees are both better than BR and they haven't won the SB over the last decade either.

BR has a great hall-of-fame career. But he wasn't even close to Tom Brady and he wasn't robbed.

 

[T1K]

Nice analysis on Najee

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I don't like Tomlin and I wish he wasn't the coach.

But Tomlin robbed BR of nothing. BR wasn't held back by Tomlin from becoming Brady. BR was neither a good enough quarterback nor a good enough leader to have definitively won another. I mean Rodgers and Brees are both better than BR and they haven't won the SB over the last decade either.

BR has a great hall-of-fame career. But he wasn't even close to Tom Brady and he wasn't robbed.

Coaching will always matter in this league.

A young, arrogant QB that had success so young, was the absolute worst fit for a coach that had a piss poor understanding of Xs and Os and faked his way through it, while failing to build any culture of accountability.

Anyone who thinks Tomlin got the best out of BR is delusional as hell.

That’s ultimately what a coach is suppose to do with his players, and he failed miserably at it. As many of us have pointed out before, no coach in NFL history has done so little with so much talent.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Coaching will always matter in this league.

A young, arrogant QB that had success so young, was the absolute worst fit for a coach that had a piss poor understanding of Xs and Os and faked his way through it, while failing to build any culture of accountability.

Anyone who thinks Tomlin got the best out of BR is delusional as hell.

That’s ultimately what a coach is suppose to do with his players, and he failed miserably at it. As many of us have pointed out before, no coach in NFL history has done so little with so much talent.

Yeah Sean Peyton doesn’t exist or Pete carrol must have retired. The great Bill has a losing record without Brady. Kyle has a losing record in San Francisco without jimmy G.
No coach could have gotten the best of Ben because he doesn’t like to be coached BA literally threw him under the bus because he doesn’t do much film study. He never adapted from his gun slinger young Ben days. There’s a reason why josh Allen is compared to Ben because they were wild and just extended plays with their athleticism and took the hit to make a play.
Haley tried to get Ben to use play action and RPo BA tried with play action but when your QB says I can’t read the defense with my back turned blame Tomlin.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yeah Sean Peyton doesn’t exist or Pete carrol must have retired. The great Bill has a losing record without Brady. Kyle has a losing record in San Francisco without jimmy G.
No coach could have gotten the best of Ben because he doesn’t like to be coached BA literally threw him under the bus because he doesn’t do much film study. He never adapted from his gun slinger young Ben days. There’s a reason why josh Allen is compared to Ben because they were wild and just extended plays with their athleticism and took the hit to make a play.
Haley tried to get Ben to use play action and RPo BA tried with play action but when your QB says I can’t read the defense with my back turned blame Tomlin.

You just listed all the reasons why Tomlin was bad for his career - thx.

And claiming no coach could have gotten the best out of him is BS - a coach who helped create the AB monster most certainly wasn’t the right coach, we know that for sure.

It wasn’t an accident BR career started off in a remarkable fashion and nose dived under Tomlin.

That tends to happen under coaches who can’t gameplan or instill discipline.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Coaching will always matter in this league.

A young, arrogant QB that had success so young, was the absolute worst fit for a coach that had a piss poor understanding of Xs and Os and faked his way through it, while failing to build any culture of accountability.

Anyone who thinks Tomlin got the best out of BR is delusional as hell.

That’s ultimately what a coach is suppose to do with his players, and he failed miserably at it. As many of us have pointed out before, no coach in NFL history has done so little with so much talent.

I really wish we could stop talking about the Steelers "talent." After Harrison and Troy regressed they had precious little real talent on the defensive side of the ball. Especially in the secondary in an increasingly pass-happy league. Their best chance was a year where all of their defensive shortcomings were papered over by one guy whose spine got torn in half. That was also a deliberate choice to build a triplets-style offense with high cap hits at QB/WR/RB and the line.

It's the same as the Cowboys talent. They are more in the public eye because of the name of the team and so we say they are more "talented." Anyone who saw the Steelers play pass defense in the 2010s knows they were decidedly untalented there.

As far as Tomlin getting the absolute zenith out of BR...of course he didn't. But do you know how rare it is for a coach to get the absolute best out of a player for their entire career? They'd have to start cloning super bowl trophies because Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Manning and Ben would win every year, not to mention randos like Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco and Russell Wilson getting-their-bested to some titles of their own. Maybe there should have been 40 Superbowls in 10 years so that every $100M+ franchise quarterback got at least one.

Ben was not hard done by anybody throughout his career. The team stood by him despite the sh1t he did off the field and the way he treated many of his teammates. In return, he gave them very good play and a couple of seasons of excellent play, and at least started treating his OL very well. They didn't win a Super Bowl in the last 10 years, just like 80% of the rest of the league didn't.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Ben could have been coached by Sean Peyton and he would not gotten better. You have some accountability and drive to work everyday to get better. You have to work out with your wr in the off season. Ben wasn’t ever a film guy so blaming Tomlin for x and o doesn’t matter. Ben doesn’t go through his reads he fixes on his 1st read. He forced the ball to AB he helped create AB Colbert said he was the unquestioned leader of the locker room he never acted like it.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I really wish we could stop talking about the Steelers "talent." After Harrison and Troy regressed they had precious little real talent on the defensive side of the ball. Especially in the secondary in an increasingly pass-happy league. Their best chance was a year where all of their defensive shortcomings were papered over by one guy whose spine got torn in half. That was also a deliberate choice to build a triplets-style offense with high cap hits at QB/WR/RB and the line.

It's the same as the Cowboys talent. They are more in the public eye because of the name of the team and so we say they are more "talented." Anyone who saw the Steelers play pass defense in the 2010s knows they were decidedly untalented there.

As far as Tomlin getting the absolute zenith out of BR...of course he didn't. But do you know how rare it is for a coach to get the absolute best out of a player for their entire career? They'd have to start cloning super bowl trophies because Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Manning and Ben would win every year, not to mention randos like Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco and Russell Wilson getting-their-bested to some titles of their own. Maybe there should have been 40 Superbowls in 10 years so that every $100M+ franchise quarterback got at least one.

Ben was not hard done by anybody throughout his career. The team stood by him despite the sh1t he did off the field and the way he treated many of his teammates. In return, he gave them very good play and a couple of seasons of excellent play, and at least started treating his OL very well. They didn't win a Super Bowl in the last 10 years, just like 80% of the rest of the league didn't.

Wasn’t Tomlin a DB coach?

If they lacked talent in the secondary as you claim, whose fault would that be?

The Steelers have been the second best drafting team over the last 20 years and fielded some of the most talented rosters in the league over that span.

Having 3 playoff wins in the last decade with a HOF QB and the best GM of his generation supplying the talent, isn’t even close to getting the best out of that talent.

It’s epic failure.

Which once again happens when you can’t gameplan well or instill discipline.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Ben could have been coached by Sean Peyton and he would not gotten better. You have some accountability and drive to work everyday to get better. You have to work out with your wr in the off season. Ben wasn’t ever a film guy so blaming Tomlin for x and o doesn’t matter. Ben doesn’t go through his reads he fixes on his 1st read. He forced the ball to AB he helped create AB Colbert said he was the unquestioned leader of the locker room he never acted like it.

You have zero clue how he would have progressed under any other coaches.

We do know his career nose dived under a coach that has proven to be a fraud.

Not many QBs will thrive under a coach who can’t gameplan or instill discipline in his players.

Tomlin’s lack of playoff success speaks to that fact.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Wasn’t Tomlin a DB coach?

If they lacked talent in the secondary as you claim, whose fault would that be?

The Steelers have been the second best drafting team over the last 20 years and fielded some of the most talented rosters in the league over that span.

Having 3 playoff wins in the last decade with a HOF QB and the best GM of his generation supplying the talent, isn’t even close to getting the best out of that talent.

It’s epic failure.

Which once again happens when you can’t gameplan well or instill discipline.

You are just saying "they are talented." There is nothing to back that up on the defensive side of the ball. It's just a thing that gets repeated enough to where it becomes "true" in some people's minds. Look at our secondaries throughout the 2010s. You ain't winning anything with those. Should Tomlin have done better? Yeah I guess. Most coaches could be better; Tomlin is not an elite coach in my mind.

As far as HOF Qb, there are like 7 HOF QBs in this era. I take it they should all have multiple super bowls if not held back by coaching? What would have been a "fair" distribution of Lombardi's in this era to you? This isn't Golf or Tennis. Only 1 a year.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

You have zero clue how he would have progressed under any other coaches.

We do know his career nose dived under a coach that has proven to be a fraud.

Not many QBs will thrive under a coach who can’t gameplan or instill discipline in his players.

Tomlin’s lack of playoff success speaks to that fact.

The guy had BA who knows football won a super bowl this season. He had Haley who was on the cardinals staff in the super bowl.He had whisenhunt with vets like batch and left which and none of them could get Ben to go to the film room. None of them could get him to take the off season training seriously. Tell me more about Tomlin failure when other people couldn’t get Ben to be a professional

 

[ChaosAgent]

I mean BR was better at QBing than Tomlin is at coaching. But the idea that coaching robbed him of Super Bowls he was entitled to is a bit much.

 

[Night Shift]

Clown thwarted BR's growth over the years. Ben still had a good career though

 

[Night Shift]

The guy had BA who knows football won a super bowl this season. He had Haley who was on the cardinals staff in the super bowl.He had whisenhunt with vets like batch and left which and none of them could get Ben to go to the film room. None of them could get him to take the off season training seriously. Tell me more about Tomlin failure when other people couldn’t get Ben to be a professional

You prove my point that fans of this team expect the coordinators to do the HC's job. Clown knows this and reaps the rewards.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I mean BR was better at QBing than Tomlin is at coaching. But the idea that coaching robbed him of Super Bowls he was entitled to is a bit much.

You keep using hyperbole to try and ignore the obvious.

Three playoff wins in ten years is a massive under achievement by both Tomlin and BR. So only someone deeply delusional could say Tomlin got the best out of BR.

Noll and Walsh had a philosophy that you aren’t buddies with your players… that you never let your starting QB get too comfortable.

Walsh benched Montana, he used Young as an instrument of fear to drive him. He even considered trading Montana for Elway in ‘83.

Noll did the same to Bradshaw and knew how to push all of his buttons and get the best from him.

It also helped that both were master game planners that also taught their QBs how to play the position well, while Tomlin has been quite poor at both aspects.

I could only imagine Tomlin coaching the hard headed, ultra mistake prone Bradshaw who said about himself coming out of school:

I was totally unprepared for pro football. I had had no schooling on reading defenses. I had never studied the game film the way a QB should.

There is zero doubt in my mind that Tomlin would have made a mess of Bradshaw.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

my god. In the Super Bowl against the cards he lead the team on a game winning drive and made an impossible throw. Your cluelessness is unbelievable

He also had a legitimate case for MVP in that game, but media people were already starting to not like Ben even then

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

The guy had BA who knows football won a super bowl this season. He had Haley who was on the cardinals staff in the super bowl.He had whisenhunt with vets like batch and left which and none of them could get Ben to go to the film room. None of them could get him to take the off season training seriously. Tell me more about Tomlin failure when other people couldn’t get Ben to be a professional

Oh yea Todd Haley, the golfer who was only provided an NFL job due to his daddy.
Ken Whisenhunt...where has he found success in the past few years?

I don't think this is helping your argument.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Those guys were swell and all, but I hope the Steelers don't go 24 years between drafting Qbs in the first round.

You don't just give up for the next two decades+ because you f***ed up and pissed away a late first on Mayday Malone.

You kinda wonder if Malone wouldn't have been a smidge better if he hadn't blown out his knee while being forced to play WR

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

The guy had BA who knows football won a super bowl this season. He had Haley who was on the cardinals staff in the super bowl.He had whisenhunt with vets like batch and left which and none of them could get Ben to go to the film room. None of them could get him to take the off season training seriously. Tell me more about Tomlin failure when other people couldn’t get Ben to be a professional

Whisenhunt was 34-13 with Roth as his QB, the highest win percentage for any Steelers O coordinator in franchise history.

He helped Roth become the youngest QB to win a SB.

Most importantly, he was well known for being tough on Roth.

Arians then won a SB with Roth also, but they became buddies and Roth was allowed to run the show, which should have never happened, but Tomlin allowed it because that’s what he does.

Dude can’t gameplan for shit so ultimately it wasn’t surprising he let the inmates run the prison.

After it was clear Arians and Roth were too buddy buddy, Tomlin brought in Haley, a bigger fraud than he was.

Do I even need to talk about the disaster Fichtner was?

All this also doesn’t even take into account that the head coach is ultimately the one responsible for developing your franchise guy.

Tomlin’s role developing Roth over the years:

 

[TimmyD]

Jared Goff is a completely overhyped QB. He is in no way as good as a lot of national people think he is and he gets a ton of rope because he was a number 1 pick who made it to the Super Bowl...he is still 1,000% better then Mason Rudolph will ever be. Mason Rudolph wouldn't be on another roster right now if it wasn't for this management team liking him and having a first round grade on him. If Rudolph wasn't a Steeler he wouldn't be on a team currently. Goff would be a starter...even if Goff wasn't making shit loads of money

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

You kinda wonder if Malone wouldn't have been a smidge better if he hadn't blown out his knee while being forced to play WR

He was a little before my time, but I watched a lot of old films and he looked pretty bad.

Lots of old school Yinzers have told me he was the worst starting QB they ever saw for the Steelers… which I can’t imagine being true having witnessed the nightmare fuel of Kent Graham.